Formation and Tactics Discussion

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

[Ramzi 233]

  On 30/07/2012 at 04:10, Bir_CFC said:

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

Good stuff, probably the best option with the players we have.

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

Keep Calm and let RDM choose the best formation.

[EskWeston 696]

Based on what i have seen in pre season we are going to make things hard for us playing 4-2-3-1 with Mikel and Lamps as the 2 in midfield. It just isn't working and making things so hard for us get quick attacking moving up the park. I don't think we HAVE to change formation but i would be interested to see a personnel change and have Romeu and Ramires as the midfield 2, much more dynamic and quicker on ball, with a fluid 3 behind Torres of Mata, Hazard and Oscar it would be a really dynamic team. Ramires is much more effective in the middle of the park as is wasted out wide.

[Naked Mole Rat 437]

  On 30/07/2012 at 04:10, Bir_CFC said:

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

Mata is the only reason why we currently use the 4-2-3-1 instead of the familar 4-3-3. When he plays right behind the striker, he's a much better player than he is when he's on the (left) wing. Even when asked to converge to the middle, he wasn't all that effective, and it makes sense. Whether he's allowed to go to the centre or not, if he plays on the wing, he has some positional duties to do, whereas if he's given the typical no. 10 role, he doesn't have to worry about such things. He can just freely roam the pitch, looking for the ball, and when he gets it, he can put a through ball or whatever. There is no doubt that he is currently the most important player on the team in terms of attacking, so it makes sense to build the team around him, and that's why I would like to see us stick to the 4-2-3-1.

[The Rising Sun 711]

While i have full faith in RDM and his abilities as our manager, i dont think he has it in him to drop Lampard from the team, as many Lineups suggest.

I am FOR the 4-4-1-1 formation or 4-1-4-1 formation.

---------CECH----------

Ivan-----Luiz-----Terry-----Cole

Ramires-Oscar-Lampard-Mata

------------Hazard-----------------

------------Torres------------------

While the 4-4-1-1 formation could leave us open in the middle, The only way i can fully support Lampard is if he agrees with this new position as DM-Transition Of play Playmaker, otherwise Mikel/Essien/Romeu deserve that position based on that being their Natural Position.

-------------CECH-----------------

Ivan-------Cahill-----Terry----Cole

---------------Mikel----------------

Marin----Oscar----Lampard----Hazard

--------------Torres-------------------

This 4-1-4-1 formation seems to be the most balanced Formation we can have. Mikel has to break up play at times, and pass it on to Lampard , who then looks for Marin oscar hazard, giving torres the best chances of exploiting space between defenders. The Mikel position can also be occupied by either Romeu/Essien. Now the problem here is that Mata deserves to be in the Attacking 4, and the only person he should replace is Lampard. I did not know much about Oscar, but after watching his performances with Brazil, he is ridiculously good and deserves to be part of the starting 11. It will be a shame to buy a player like him and sit him on the bench.

The advantage of having Lampard in this Formation is that he can do his fair share of defensive duties as well, while Mata is not good at defense at all.

If we were to go with a 4-2-3-1 , then maybe these players would fill the bill

------------CECH------------

IVA----LUIZ----TERRY----COLE

------ESSIEN----LAMPARD------

HAZARD-----OSCAR-----MATA

-----------TORRES---------

In this Formation, my only doubt is Essien. Every comeback that he has made, he has always looked great in his first few appearances, sparking talks such as "the beast is back"

However, this time, everyone knows he has lost his pace, but he looks composed and has looked good IMO. A DM doesnt necessarily need pace, but has to have the intelligence to be in the right places at the right time and be able to throw in tackles. I also prefer Romeu over mikel, but that is a judgement i came to last season itself.

Marin is not yet a starter, simply because he needs to work on his game a bit more and force himself into the team. He has looked good in pre season, but his inability to play for the team in the final third reminds me of sturridge a bit. However, this was pre season so he was trying to impress. Let him win his place in the squad, as he has been injured last season and has not played that often over the last few years. He has great potential though, as long as he takes the right approach to team football.

Do we really need to keep player just because of experience though? Most of us realistically are expecting a 3-4th placed finish, so shouldnt we be able to do that with our world class new players, with more possibly coming?

I love Lampard, yet i would have been happy had he left for LA Galaxy this season. However, im not unhappy that he is still here. Cannot decide what i feel about Lamps, i guess he is a legend and deserves another season here. He has earnt it.

But that creates problems when it comes to the World Class players who are coming in and would otherwise command a starting 11 place, now you wonder which one to choose, and experienced but possibly not as effective as before player(Lamps) as his position is not his anymore, and he has to do another job/another position(DM), for which there are possibly better players who could be playing there.

Anyhow, those were my views!!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The problem with Ramires is not that he doesn't fit in at RW, it's that he doesn't fit into the system Chelsea are trying to bring in. He's a counter-attack player and is at his best when he gets into space where he can use his blazing speed. He's not a particularly good passer nor is he he inventive and he's not a real DM so where does that leave him? Probably as a sub who can provide cover for a number of positions. (and mostly as a defensive substitution for one of the wingers) It's an issue when you have so many different managers using different systems. You end up with quality players that just don't fit in.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

To be fair, di Matteo's system isn't a rigid system with five designated positions. The two holding midfielders are the only consistency to it. In reality, the three forward players are all in 'floating' positions and two of those need to be wider berths to facilitate a wing formation. In essence, it's a 4-2-1-3 when attacking, with either Mata or Hazard (or whoever) pushing onto the wing. I think we'll see something akin to United in 07/08 with Nani/Giggs/Ronaldo rotating on the wings and Scholes or Carrick (or in our case, Essien or Lampard) the attacking midfielder player.

[Kojo 4,676]

  On 30/07/2012 at 13:03, Alex said:

To be fair, di Matteo's system isn't a rigid system with five designated positions. The two holding midfielders are the only consistency to it. In reality, the three forward players are all in 'floating' positions and two of those need to be wider berths to facilitate a wing formation. In essence, it's a 4-2-1-3 when attacking, with either Mata or Hazard (or whoever) pushing onto the wing. I think we'll see something akin to United in 07/08 with Nani/Giggs/Ronaldo rotating on the wings and Scholes or Carrick (or in our case, Essien or Lampard) the attacking midfielder player.

Someone said its rigid?

But to have such creative freedom you need am engine in your team, we have Ramires but we lack a good DM.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

actually i agree with @The Rising Sun, in fact that 4141. can be our fall back or even lead formation for couple of weeks till oscar and hazard get feet set. the advanded four could have in order: mata, lampard,rambo,hazard. those four with respect to lampard could roam around casuing havoc. its not as pretty as 4231 but i think can hold their own for first coupleweeks of season.

we need to forget about exposure on the wing becasue all top team that play attacking football have to give up something. united give up wings, as do totenham, as do bayern, but hey we have cole and ivanovic, we no longer NEED them as much as before to supprot in attack like past seasons. everytime malouda had ball cole HAD to be there overlapping, if he didnt malouda would have lost ball everytime in attack. players like lampard and mata can easily do one-two's or cross ball across pitch, or give through ball to runnin rambo down centre of field.hazard on the right can beat his man head one, which we have to finally utilize. we have not had this in along ass time, if he can, im sorry when he eventually causes double teams like nani and bale, we no longer would have problems with likes of aston villa, wba, and other lower teams. it frees up space for rambo and torres up top aswell.

on the subject of rabo, if he could be our Yaya toure that 4141 would be unstopable, no doubt about it. in fact i believe our dm would be romeu (if givin chance) because he could really thrive in that system becasue everybody is infront of him and unlike a double pivot, he has four outlets and with his calmness and astitute passing, i reckon he would have field day picking out the options. while on defensive side he probably only has to cover left side more often than right side for rambo could/would most likely cover hazard's ass most of time if he forgets to track back or loses possesion . but from what i've seen hazard has underated defensive game, and if he develops that messi attitude (always chase ball if HE loses it) the more and more i love 4141.

some food for though, for RDM HAS PLAYED 4141 before in opener vs seatle so its not something i pulled out of thin air praying, and hoping we can use like some 352 someone suggested earlier, hahaha

[DDA 9,772]

This is quite an interesting article about how we might set up our midfield for the season coming... we musn't forget that we will be losing both Mikel and Essien during the African Cup of Nations, a vital period of the league season...eek!

http://www.epltalk.c...Talk (EPL Talk)

[OneMoSalah 8,841]

  On 03/08/2012 at 22:48, DDA said:

This is quite an interesting article about how we might set up our midfield for the season coming... we musn't forget that we will be losing both Mikel and Essien during the African Cup of Nations, a vital period of the league season...eek!

http://www.epltalk.c...Talk (EPL Talk)

Its ok everyone wants shot of Mikel and Essien anyway...

[DDA 9,772]

  On 03/08/2012 at 23:52, RyanDavidson said:

Its ok everyone wants shot of Mikel and Essien anyway...

Haha I want shot of this sore throat ... but you learn quickly, life's a bitch and then you marry one!

[Rahul Haque 57]

its absolutely clear after today that 4 2 3 1 is our formation.

absolutely scrap, throw, clean, flush the 4 3 3 and it's narrowness out of this team.

[Kojo 4,676]

I don't get the problem with 4-3-3, just because it never worked then, doesn't mean anything, 4-2-3-1 never worked either.

Try it when we have full strength players, obviously not against City because we are out of time now to practice it.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

  On 04/08/2012 at 16:41, Kojo said:

I don't get the problem with 4-3-3, just because it never worked then, doesn't mean anything, 4-2-3-1 never worked either.

Try it when we have full strength players, obviously not against City because we are out of time now to practice it.

Because with a 4-3-3 we dont have enough creativity behind the striker. Also we havent really got enough pure wingers (RW) atm to play that.

4-2-3-1 is the best option, but id also like to see us try a 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-4-1:

4-1-3-2

Cech

Iva - Cahill - Terry - Cole

Mikel/Essien

Ramires/Hulk? - Mata/Oscar - Hazard/Marin

Sturridge - Torres

4-1-4-1

Cech

Iva - Cahill - Terry - Cole

Mikel

Hulk?/Ramires - Oscar/Lampard - Mata - Marin/Malouda

Hazard

Torres

[Rahul Haque 57]

hazard is not an out and out winger, nor is mata, nor is oscar. they can all play wide but as a creative midfielder. 4 3 3 requires width. we have no width if it's not from the full backs.

4 2 3 1 is the best formation. also in a 4 3 3 the 3 in the middle needs to be agile. essien and lampard have lost all their quickness over the years. all in all, if it's a formation we have to play- it's 4 2 3 1. it's what suits our team the best. we have the players for it and lastly, torres is actually very good in it. in a 4 3 3 without any width and any natural crosser of the ball, we have nothing.

[Kojo 4,676]

Our attack won't be as good i agree, but we will get fucking smashed on the counter.

Do you seriously think

Lampard-Mikel will actually be a good midfield consistently through out the season?, come on for fuck sake, if anyone has even a slight bit of common sense you can see that's not right at all. We will get raped.

And before anyone tries to be a smart arse, yes this was the midfield in the CL Final, but all we did that final was completely defend, we didn't dominate games constantly, and Lampard was holding out then, no way will he remain as DM throughout this season. It's time to start again.