David Luiz

[Viper22 2,418]

Why does everyone claim that Mikel/Luiz are scapegoated? When players play badly, they get criticized. Luiz and Mikel have poor games more often than some of the other players. Therefore they get criticized more often. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think Luiz is a decent footballer, anything but reliable, but whne he plays well, he plays BRILLIANTLY. My personal opinion though is that £30M from Barca would be great if we could then reinvest that in another CB who maybe isn't quite so eccentric and a bit more reliable. If they want to pay us £30M though, any less and i'd be skeptical, after all, he's still a pretty good CB and a great DM.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

please tell me who considered him one of the best CBs int he world? Jesus Christ... do people just forget how much of a liability he is at the back? it's funny when you slate Luiz people always come back with excuses, if that doesn't work they say 'look at how many mistakes Cahill/Terry made', Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but there's a difference between making a mistake every once in a while, like Cahill/Terry, to being a repeat offender like Luiz.

He's one of the most overrated players I've come across in a long time. He's not even top 10 best defender in the PL ffs.

Another thing, lets be honest, is his passing that good? i hear many people on this forum say he's vital because he gets the ball to our attacking players meaning we can play from the back... i disagree, in fact how many times does he just hoof the ball up to no one? his passing is better than most defenders but it isn't great.

No you're right, mate, he's won all those trophies by sheer luck, became a starter for his NT because no one in Brasil knows how to play football, was bought by Chelsea for 25m because our scouts are shit and attracted interest from Barca and Bayern because they're bad teams and know nothing about football...

I don't want to go into a debate about Luiz's abilities right now because I think it's pointless. Like I said, you have every right to criticize whatever you want about Luiz and I do see the most of the points being raised because like I said I think he's having a below than average season, but to call him someone as established and accomplished as him "an awful CB" is just ridiculous and blinded by hate.

[The only place to be 11,313]

No you're right, mate, he's won all those trophies by sheer luck, became a starter for his NT because no one in Brasil knows how to play football, was bought by Chelsea for 25m because our scouts are shit and attracted interest from Barca and Bayern because they're bad teams and know nothing about football...

I don't want to go into a debate about Luiz's abilities right now because I think it's pointless. Like I said, you have every right to criticize whatever you want about Luiz and I do see the most of the points being raised because like I said I think he's having a below than average season, but to call him someone as established and accomplished as him "an awful CB" is just ridiculous and blinded by hate.

Good point.

We shouldn't criticise him because he was bought for us for big money in 2011, is an established international for a top team with over 100 caps, helped us win the Champions League and Europa League, attracted interest from top sides, has been in two team of the year selections, was third in the world player of the year and has even won the World Cup and European Championship.

Oops, sorry...I confused him with Fernando Torres by mistake. Still a good point though Choulo.

Edited February 12, 2014 by The only place to be

[haranr 485]

Should be dropped from the CB position.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Should be dropped from the CB position.

For all intents and purpose he was. It was only because Terry was injured that he played yesterday and it cost us.

[quickpassnmove 924]

I'm happy to see David leave ASAP, as well as John O.M., and Fernando. Bring in more center midfield depth and experience. still running on Matic and Ramires alone. still paper-thin in center midfield.

One striker, more in center mid, and the fullback, sell Luiz, sell Mikel.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Good point.

We shouldn't criticise him because he was bought for us for big money in 2011, is an established international for a top team with over 100 caps, helped us win the Champions League and Europa League, attracted interest from top sides, has been in two team of the year selections, was third in the world player of the year and has even won the World Cup and European Championship.

Oops, sorry...I confused him with Fernando Torres by mistake. Still a good point though Choulo.

Did you even read my post? I'm saying criticize him all you want and I even agree with some of the criticism, just don't say something completely illogical and bordering on stupid like "He's an awful CB" and expect no one to call you out for it.

[lionsden 4,689]

Why does everyone claim that Mikel/Luiz are scapegoated? When players play badly, they get criticized. Luiz and Mikel have poor games more often than some of the other players. Therefore they get criticized more often. Why is that so hard to understand?

I think Luiz is a decent footballer, anything but reliable, but whne he plays well, he plays BRILLIANTLY. My personal opinion though is that £30M from Barca would be great if we could then reinvest that in another CB who maybe isn't quite so eccentric and a bit more reliable. If they want to pay us £30M though, any less and i'd be skeptical, after all, he's still a pretty good CB and a great DM.

I wonder why players like JT, carvalho, lampard,Zola, makelele et al were never scapegoated in their prime playing for us. must be because they didn't give critics reasons to scapegoat them with their consistently great performances and effort. poor/average/overrated or past their prime players always seem to be the "scapegoats". can't just be pure coincidence.

If you are top notch and put in quality performances regularly, no one can scapegoat you without looking ridiculous.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Did you even read my post? I'm saying criticize him all you want and I even agree with some of the criticism, just don't say something completely illogical and bordering on stupid like "He's an awful CB" and expect no one to call you out for it.

Whereas you can say stuff like everyone in the world considered in the top 5 if not top 3 CBs in the world?

[lionsden 4,689]

Did you even read my post? I'm saying criticize him all you want and I even agree with some of the criticism, just don't say something completely illogical and bordering on stupid like "He's an awful CB" and expect no one to call you out for it.

he's a very average defender with good technique seems about right. Massively overrated too if I might add.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Whereas you can say stuff like everyone in the world considered in the top 5 if not top 3 CBs in the world?

Fine, that was stupid. Does that make the other statement not stupid?

he's a very average defender with good technique seems about right. Massively overrated too if I might add.

Fair enough, your opinion.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Fine, that was stupid. Does that make the other statement not stupid?

Fair enough, your opinion.

I think lionsden has a good point though. He's a great footballer but I'm not sure he's a great defender.

He has skills that a CB simply doesn't need but lacks the ones that they do. I think it's purely down to his personality and I think there's a link between his exuberant personality off the pitch and his erratic personality on it. Maybe he's got ADHD or maybe he's just immature but concentrating for 90 minutes on the runs of defenders, offside lines and through balls is fucking tough and he simply might not be up to it.

I don't think anyone could doubt his ability on the ball and he is capable of playing well in defence, but at the top level you need to do it week-in and week-out. Luiz seems to like to be noticed, whereas defences are at their best when you don't talk about them. They provide the solid, stable foundation for all those fancy barstards to go and do their step-overs and what-not.

I think Luiz has a deep desire to be one of those fancy barstards. I'd pick him in midfield, but every time he plays in defence I worry. I don't have an agenda, I'm not looking for a scapegoat and I actually would've preferred him in midfield over Ramires yesterday, but I guarantee that I'm not alone in worrying a bit more when he's in defence for us.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Exactly. Luiz is an awful CB and should be sold in the summer. That's what it boils down to. Everything else is just hot air.

If he was so awful, why does he get ahead of Dante for his NT? Explain that one.

[The only place to be 11,313]

If he was so awful, why does he get ahead of Dante for his NT? Explain that one.

I'm no expert, but Dante isn't exactly a world-beater is he? He's only been at a top club for a couple of seasons, didn't make his international debut until he was 29 (by which point Luiz was somewhat established since his time in Benfica) and was something of a journeyman before that. He was playing in Belgium until the age of 26.

You're talking about someone who made his international debut about the same age Leon Osman did and who has the same number of international caps as Chris Smalling.

If you want to say that selection for the Brazilian national team should reflect his quality, then you know you're just setting yourself up for people listing players like Andre Santos (24 caps), Jo (14 caps) and Robinho (92 caps) who were all busts in our league.

Conversely Willian and Fernandinho have 9 caps between them. Maybe the Brazilian selectors aren't the bastions of football knowledge you're holding them up to be in support of Luiz, or maybe they are.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Luiz an awful CB? Jesus Christ.

[JDY 1,290]

I've seen the goal a few times. Just two matches ago Terry allowed EXACTLY the same thing to happen, but the opponent - don't remember who - didn't capitalize and headed wide or Cech deflected it... can't remember.

Wasn't two games ago but Terry did the exact same thing against Southampton away in the 0-3 win. It was 0-1 at the time and Lambert should've really scored the header. Nothing was said probably because we won.

[Viper22 2,418]

I'm no expert, but Dante isn't exactly a world-beater is he? He's only been at a top club for a couple of seasons, didn't make his international debut until he was 29 (by which point Luiz was somewhat established since his time in Benfica) and was something of a journeyman before that. He was playing in Belgium until the age of 26.

You're talking about someone who made his international debut about the same age Leon Osman did and who has the same number of international caps as Chris Smalling.

If you want to say that selection for the Brazilian national team should reflect his quality, then you know you're just setting yourself up for people listing players like Andre Santos (24 caps), Jo (14 caps) and Robinho (92 caps) who were all busts in our league.

Conversely Willian and Fernandinho have 9 caps between them. Maybe the Brazilian selectors aren't the bastions of football knowledge you're holding them up to be in support of Luiz, or maybe they are.

All very good points, but I would just say: Dante just isn't very good.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I'm no expert, but Dante isn't exactly a world-beater is he? He's only been at a top club for a couple of seasons, didn't make his international debut until he was 29 (by which point Luiz was somewhat established since his time in Benfica) and was something of a journeyman before that. He was playing in Belgium until the age of 26.

You're talking about someone who made his international debut about the same age Leon Osman did and who has the same number of international caps as Chris Smalling.

If you want to say that selection for the Brazilian national team should reflect his quality, then you know you're just setting yourself up for people listing players like Andre Santos (24 caps), Jo (14 caps) and Robinho (92 caps) who were all busts in our league.

Conversely Willian and Fernandinho have 9 caps between them. Maybe the Brazilian selectors aren't the bastions of football knowledge you're holding them up to be in support of Luiz, or maybe they are.

My point is, if Luiz was such an awful CB he'd not be playing ahead of Dante, Marquinhos, Alex etc. because they are all decent players at the least.

Andre Santos and Jo made most of their caps when they were in Brazil. Robinho was actually good in his first season here in the PL and was Brazil's wonder kid for awhile.

Willian and Fernandinho barely got picked because they played in Ukraine.