Politics & Stuff

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

22 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Textbook definition of a terrorist is one who targets civilians and without warning.

Thats the IDF straight off

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

30 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Textbook definition of a terrorist is one who targets civilians and without warning.

• Unlawful attacks causing mass civilian casualties, with nearly half of the victims being children.
• Attacks on supposed "safe" areas in the southern governorate.
• Deliberate killing of civilians during military operations.
• Pulverization of large parts of Gaza with airstrikes.
• Blockade of food, water, fuel, and electricity.
• Approximately 42 500 people killed, including children, U.N. workers, paramedics, and journalists.

This from Israeli newspaper Haaretz btw only focussing on Gaza

[robsblubot 3,498]

20 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Thats the IDF straight off

It's a VERY long and complicated conflict. I just disagreed with your analogy with Ukraine response.

10 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

• Unlawful attacks causing mass civilian casualties, with nearly half of the victims being children.
• Attacks on supposed "safe" areas in the southern governorate.
• Deliberate killing of civilians during military operations.
• Pulverization of large parts of Gaza with airstrikes.
• Blockade of food, water, fuel, and electricity.
• Approximately 42 500 people killed, including children, U.N. workers, paramedics, and journalists.

This from Israeli newspaper Haaretz btw only focussing on Gaza

You just wrote that Palestinian groups do commit acts of terrorism (or alluded to), but justified them by suggesting that that's the only way they can fight back.
So, now we can apply the same logic for Israel as the only way they can "fight back" given that they were attacked first, regardless whether you feel that attack was justified or not.

You keep referring to this fabled world order that I simply do not see. 

Edited September 25 by robsblubot

[Fernando 6,451]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

Ten maps to understand the occupied West Bank

Since 1967, Israel has occupied the West Bank. Here are 10 maps showing how military control affects Palestinian lives.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/16/ten-maps-to-understand-the-occupied-west-bank

 

As Israel’s war on Gaza, which has killed more than 41,000 people, nears one year, assaults in the occupied West Bank continue, with at least 703 people killed by Israeli forces since October 7.

Despite Gaza and the West Bank being just 33km (21 miles) apart at their closest points, Israeli restrictions have long prevented travel and interaction between the two Palestinian territories, even before the recent conflict.

To better understand the effect of these restrictions and the situation on the ground, here is a visual overview of the geography, history and living conditions of the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank.

1 – How big is the occupied West Bank?

The West Bank, including occupied East Jerusalem, covers a land area of 5,655sq km (2,183sq miles), making it about 15 times larger than the Gaza Strip, spread over 365sq km (141sq miles).

Compared with other places around the world, the kidney bean-shaped West Bank is roughly the same size as Delaware in the United States or Bali in Indonesia. It is about half the size of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom and approximately a third of the size of Gauteng province in South Africa.

2 – How did the West Bank get its name?

The West Bank, called al-Daffah in Arabic, is located on the western side of the Jordan River, from which it derives its name.

The 251km (156 miles) long river flows from the Lebanese mountains to the Dead Sea, adding fertile soil to the surrounding valley. The Jordan Valley makes up 30 percent of the West Bank and constitutes half of its agricultural land.

Due to tight Israeli controls and restrictions, Palestinians do not have their own airport. Instead, to travel in and out of the West Bank, Palestinians with the necessary permits must use the King Hussein (Allenby) Bridge over the Jordan River to reach Jordan and onward destinations.

3 – How many people live in the West Bank?

The West Bank, with approximately 3.3 million Palestinian inhabitants, has roughly one million more residents than Gaza.

The West Bank is divided into 11 governorates. Hebron, or al-Khalil in Arabic, is the most populous governorate with about 842,000 residents. It is followed by Jerusalem (500,000), Nablus (440,000), Ramallah and el-Bireh (337,000) and Jenin (360,000).

Additionally, about 700,000 Israelis live in illegal settlements on Palestinian land. More on Israeli settlers later.

4 – Israeli occupation of the West Bank

Since 1967, Israel has maintained a military occupation of the West Bank, involving arrests, checkpoints, home invasions, demolitions and frequent raids and assaults.

To better understand the daily struggles Palestinians face under Israeli occupation, take a look at this illustrated guide.

In the past 12 months, Israel demolished at least 1,697 Palestinian structures, primarily homes, displacing 4,233 people, according to United Nations figures. This amounts to an average of five structures destroyed per day.

The figures for 2024 represent the highest number of structures destroyed in one year since the UN began tracking in 2009.

Over the past 15 years, Israel has demolished at least 11,500 Palestinian-owned structures, with three-quarters of those located in Area C.

5 – The differences between Areas A, B, and C

As part of the 1993 Oslo Accords, signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Israel, the occupied West Bank was divided into three areas – A, B and C.

The Oslo Accords represented the first direct Palestinian-Israeli peace agreement. This led to the formation of the Palestinian Authority (PA) – an administrative body that would govern Palestinian internal security, administration and civilian affairs in areas of self-rule, for a five-year interim period.

Area A initially comprised 3 percent of the West Bank and grew to 18 percent by 1999. In Area A, the PA controls most affairs.

Area B represents about 22 percent of the West Bank. In both areas, while the PA is in charge of education, health and the economy, the Israelis have full control of external security, meaning they retain the right to enter at any time.

Area C represents 60 percent of the West Bank. Under the Oslo Accords, control of this area was supposed to be handed over to the PA. Instead, Israel retains total control over all matters, including security, planning and construction. The transfer of control to the PA never happened.

6 – Illegal Israeli settlement expansion

Israeli settlements are Jewish communities built on Palestinian land. Roughly 700,000 Israeli settlers are living in at least 250 settlements and outposts in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Israeli settlements are illegal under international law as they violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupying power from transferring its population to the area it occupies.

The settler population is growing faster than Israel’s overall population, with about 10 percent of Israel’s 6.8 million Jewish citizens living in these areas. Settlers receive Israeli citizenship and government subsidies that lower their cost of living.

7 – Israeli separation wall and checkpoints

Since 2002, Israel has been constructing a wall that stretches for more than 700km (435 miles), cutting deep into Palestinian territory.

Israel has also constructed hundreds of road obstacles and checkpoints, severely limiting Palestinian freedom of movement.

While Palestinians may have to wait for hours at these checkpoints and travel along segregated road networks, Israelis can travel freely on their own “bypass roads” which have been built on Palestinian land to connect illegal Israeli settlements to major metropolitan areas inside Israel.

8 – Occupied East Jerusalem and the Old City

Jerusalem, a city sacred to Muslims, Christians, and Jews, has had West Jerusalem under Israeli control since 1948, with a Jewish majority. East Jerusalem, including the Old City, has been under Israeli occupation since 1967 and is mostly Palestinian.

Since its annexation in 1980, Israel has considered the entire city of Jerusalem a part of its territory. This is not internationally recognised. For this reason, Israeli maps do not show East Jerusalem a part of the occupied West Bank.

The Old City, located in East Jerusalem, is home to some of the holiest sites in Islam, Judaism and Christianity. The area, which is smaller than 1sq km (0.39sq miles), is home to Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Western Wall, St James Cathedral and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, among others.

9 – Palestinian refugee camps

The West Bank is home to at least 870,000 registered refugees, with about 25 percent living in 19 camps established after the 1948 Nakba.

On May 14, 1948, the British Mandate expired and Zionist leaders announced they would be declaring a state, triggering the first Arab-Israeli war.

Zionist gangs expelled some 750,000 Palestinians and captured 78 percent of the land. The remaining 22 percent was divided into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Some 1.5 million Palestinian refugees are living in 58 official UN camps located throughout Palestine and neighbouring countries. In total, there are at least 5.9 million registered Palestinian refugees mostly living outside of these camps.

The plight of Palestinian refugees is the longest, unresolved refugee problem in the world.

10 – Israeli assaults on the West Bank

Since launching its severest raids in two decades on August 28, Israeli forces have killed at least 50 Palestinians across the West Bank.

The assaults involved hundreds of ground soldiers advancing in bulldozers and armoured vehicles, supported by fighter jets and drones that dropped bombs.

 

The Take: Israel’s backdoor annexation of the occupied West Bank

Can Israel get away with the biggest land grab in 30 years in the West Bank and a secret annexation plan?

https://www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/2024/7/11/the-take-israels-backdoor-annexation-of-the-occupied-west-bank

A view shows the illegal Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, February 25, 2020 [Ammar Awad/Reuters]

https://aje.io/cxlfu6

 

Okay thanks for the info, but this things highlight one thing. This happen in 1967.

What made Israel to occupy that land in 1967?

To who it was part of?

Is that part of the 6 day war? Because in a war if you come an attack and you lose, you will lose ground and territory. I saw it happen in South America when Peru went to war with Ecuador and Peru won thus taking land. That is the norm of all wars. 

Did the same thing happen here? A war happen and Israel won and thus took that land? Or Israel just got up one day and decided to take it...but from who? 

Thanks for the info again. 

[Fernando 6,451]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The only problem with that narrative is that 94% of deaths before Oct 7th were Palestinian.  Daily deaths, torture, anal rape and imprisonment with no trial was thnorm for years before October 7th

When Ukraine fights back against occupation they are heroes - when Palestinians do it they are 'terrorists'. This is Industrial sized hypocrisy in action.

Not surprising when Israel is essentially a Colonial Outpost, an attack dog for the West in the middle east.

It's not Palestinians it's Hamas a terrorist organization. Are you saying all Palestinians are Hamas? 

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

32 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

You just wrote that Palestinian groups do commit acts of terrorism (or alluded to), but justified them by suggesting that that's the only way they can fight back.

Its a lot more nuanced than that. But the bottom line, land and a people were driven out. Occupied, tortured, raped, and summarily imprisoned without trial. 

Israel is clever - it gets the West to label Hezbollah, Hamas as 'prescribed terrorists' before they kill them. Dont forget both groups grew out of being invaded by Israel.

Come on mate take your blinkers off =Its not like your native Brazil where it was dominated by the US using a velvet iron glove - its blatant State Terrorism. UN Definition

37 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

given that they were attacked first

Who drove the Palestinians out ? Who created an apartheid state ? 

39 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

You keep referring to this fabled world order that I simply do not see. 

Sorry which 'fabled world order' is that ?

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

5 minutes ago, Fernando said:

It's not Palestinians it's Hamas a terrorist organization. Are you saying all Palestinians are Hamas? 

Hamas was formed after the previous Gaza invasion where they shot women holding babies. The Zionist lobby made sure it was a prescribed 'Terrorist' organisation.

Just as Nelson Mandela and the ANC were 'prescribed terrorists' for decades. Then they became 'heroes' when the US and UK realised public opinion could see through the bullshit

[robsblubot 3,498]

24 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Its a lot more nuanced than that. But the bottom line, land and a people were driven out. Occupied, tortured, raped, and summarily imprisoned without trial. 

Israel is clever - it gets the West to label Hezbollah, Hamas as 'prescribed terrorists' before they kill them. Dont forget both groups grew out of being invaded by Israel.

Come on mate take your blinkers off =Its not like your native Brazil where it was dominated by the US using a velvet iron glove - its blatant State Terrorism. UN Definition

Who drove the Palestinians out ? Who created an apartheid state ? 

Sorry which 'fabled world order' is that ?

You justify acts of terrorism, but they are still that: acts of terrorism. Yes, you can also claim Israel attacks are acts of terrorism, and I justified them the same way you did.

I get the nuanced part, which is exactly the reason I disagree with every one-sided view of this conflict. There is no longer a *before* when you are talking about decades of conflict. There is always an attack, justified or not, by a Palestinian group and then an Israeli response, which is justified or not.

Every area in the world is dominated by the powers which dominate that region; that dominance is done in a number of ways, and if nothing else works, force can and will be used.

"Sorry which 'fabled world order' is that ?"
Citing UN and international law esp in the context of conflicts and war. People are typically not very civil when murdering each other.

[Vesper 28,763]

50 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Okay thanks for the info, but this things highlight one thing. This happen in 1967.

What made Israel to occupy that land in 1967?

To who it was part of?

Is that part of the 6 day war? Because in a war if you come an attack and you lose, you will lose ground and territory. I saw it happen in South America when Peru went to war with Ecuador and Peru won thus taking land. That is the norm of all wars. 

Did the same thing happen here? A war happen and Israel won and thus took that land? Or Israel just got up one day and decided to take it...but from who? 

Thanks for the info again. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

snip

On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.^[29] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. After some initial resistance, Nasser ordered an evacuation of the Sinai Peninsula; by the sixth day of the conflict, Israel had occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula.^[38] Jordan, which had entered into a defense pact with Egypt just a week before the war began, did not take on an all-out offensive role against Israel. However, the Jordanians did launch attacks against Israeli forces to slow Israel's advance.^[39] On the fifth day, Syria joined the war by shelling Israeli positions in the north.^[40]

Egypt and Jordan agreed to a ceasefire on 8 June, and Syria on 9 June, and it was signed with Israel on 11 June. The Six-Day War resulted in more than 15,000 Arab fatalities, while Israel suffered fewer than 1,000. Alongside the combatant casualties were the deaths of 20 Israeli civilians killed in Arab forces air strikes on Jerusalem, 15 UN peacekeepers killed by Israeli strikes in the Sinai at the outset of the war, and 34 US personnel killed in the USS Liberty incident in which Israeli air forces struck a United States Navy technical research ship.

At the time of the cessation of hostilities, Israel had occupied the Golan Heights from Syria, the West Bank including East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt. The displacement of civilian populations as a result of the Six-Day War would have long-term consequences, as around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians and 100,000 Syrians fled or were expelled from the West Bank^[41] and the Golan Heights, respectively.^[42] Nasser resigned in shame following Israel's victory, but was later reinstated following a series of protests across Egypt. In the aftermath of the conflict, Egypt closed the Suez Canal until 1975.

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

3 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

You justify acts of terrorism, but they are still that: acts of terrorism.

Sorry mate, I have never justified terrorism - but its important to understand why an oppressed people react. As in South Africa, Palestine, or even the numerous indigenous Brazilian people, such as the Xocleng.

 

5 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

There is no longer a *before* when you are talking about decades of conflict.

Thats ridiculous. It is crucial to understanding. By your logic the US dropped nuclear bombs on Japan for no reason, nothing happened before

8 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Every area in the world is dominated by the powers which dominate that region; that dominance is done in a number of ways, and if nothing else works, force can and will be used.

Thats true - doesnt mean its right though so again with that logic Europe should just have accepted Nazi occupation 

13 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Citing UN and international law esp in the context of conflicts and war.

Suggesting there should be no international laws. a free for all where bullies and the strong just kill the vulnerable - I dont subscribe to that Nietzschean view

[Vesper 28,763]

10 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Suggesting there should be no international laws. a free for all where bullies and the strong just kill the vulnerable - I dont subscribe to that Nietzschean view

International law doesn't apply to Israel because the US, by far the world's most powerful nation in human history, let's the Zionists get away with murder.

Fuck Hamas, they are indeed terrorists, but they were not spawned in a test tube nor a vacuum, and (the part the Zionists always leave out) they were empowered and funded by the ultra RW Israeli government as a Bibi wanted to divide and conquer the Palestinians (West Bank v Gaza) in order to eventually take ALL the land, especially the West Bank.

Edited September 25 by Vesper

[Vesper 28,763]

 

[robsblubot 3,498]

37 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Sorry mate, I have never justified terrorism - but its important to understand why an oppressed people react. As in South Africa, Palestine, or even the numerous indigenous Brazilian people, such as the Xocleng.

 

Thats ridiculous. It is crucial to understanding. By your logic the US dropped nuclear bombs on Japan for no reason, nothing happened before

Thats true - doesnt mean its right though so again with that logic Europe should just have accepted Nazi occupation 

Suggesting there should be no international laws. a free for all where bullies and the strong just kill the vulnerable - I dont subscribe to that Nietzschean view

It does sounds like you do justify the attack on Israel (which started this particular escalation) when you suggested that's the only way they can fight back.
Regarding oppression, while I do agree they are oppressed people, I don't think Israel and the west are alone in that. Their own leaders, esp via their religion, do a lot of the oppressing.

Consider someone, actually a large population now, who is *born* in Israel; now "the before," how Israel came to exist, is in the history books, but it is not part of their lifetimes. Now a bunch of crazy fucks (from their PoV) keep making their lives miserable with constant bomb threats and whatnot; once in a while even crazier fucks come and kill and rape a bunch of their friends, sister, families. So, how Israel came to be is irrelevant to this person.

The dominance is the real world, just like international laws are ignored in war. Does Putin care about international law? it does not look like he does to me.

Edited September 25 by robsblubot

[robsblubot 3,498]

26 minutes ago, Vesper said:

 

"our president and VP" 😆
I think every discussion about Trump should begin and end at, "did he concede the last election where he was soundly beaten?"

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

18 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

It does sounds like you do justify the attack on Israel (which started this particular escalation) when you suggested that's the only way they can fight back.
Regarding oppression, while I do agree they are oppressed people, I don't think Israel and the west are alone in that. Their own leaders, esp via their religion, do a lot of the oppressing.

Consider someone, actually a large population now, who is *born* in Israel; now "the before," how Israel came to exist, is in the history books, but it is not part of their lifetimes.

So, how Israel came to be is irrelevant to this person.

The dominance is the real world, just like international laws are ignored in war. Does Putin care about international law? it does not look like he does to me.

No not justifying any attacks - but its important to understand why such things occur , and not just use the lazy stereotype of 'terrorist'

21 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Now a bunch of crazy fucks (from their PoV) keep making their lives miserable with constant bomb threats and whatnot; once in a while even crazier fucks come and kill and rape a bunch of their friends, sister, families.

That sums up the IDF perfectly in the Occupied Territories. An illegal occupation lets not forget that.

23 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

he dominance is the real world, just like international laws are ignored in war. Does Putin care about international law? it does not look like he does to me.

That laissez faire worldview is reckless, the strong should just dominate and kill with impunity. Humans are, or at least should be better than that. I dont subscribe to that bully boy shit, sorry. 

[Vesper 28,763]

Subhumans - Religious Wars

 

Label:    Spiderleg Records – SDL 7
Format:    Vinyl, 7", 45 RPM, EP
Country:    UK
Released:    1982
Genre:    Rock
Style:    Punk

 

 

 

[robsblubot 3,498]

9 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

No not justifying any attacks - but its important to understand why such things occur , and not just use the lazy stereotype of 'terrorist'

That sums up the IDF perfectly in the Occupied Territories. An illegal occupation lets not forget that.

That laissez faire worldview is reckless, the strong should just dominate and kill with impunity. Humans are, or at least should be better than that. I dont subscribe to that bully boy shit, sorry. 

Yes, hence the nuanced part; I think Ukraine position is a hell less nuanced. Reckon that perhaps if Palestine leaders were a bit less like religious zealots, perhaps there would be other ways to fight back. I know... the same can be said about the other side, and they currently do have a pretty bad leader, but thankfully that can still? (he was trying to prevent that) be changed via democratic ways.

You are the one who used "should" while my point was "does" in the "the strong should just dominate" bit. What I want, or "agree with" is far less important than the realities of the world both past and today. Ignore human nature at your own peril.

Edited September 25 by robsblubot

[Fulham Broadway 16,825]

6 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Yes, hence the nuanced part; I think Ukraine position is a hell less nuanced. Reckon that perhaps if Palestine leaders were a bit less like religious zealots, perhaps there would be other ways to fight back. I know... the same can be said about the other side, and they currently do have a pretty bad leader, but thankfully that can still? (he was trying to prevent that) be changed via democratic ways.

You are the one who used "should" while my point was "does" in the "the strong should just dominate" bit. What I want, or "agree with" is far less important than the realities of the world both past and today. Ignore human nature at your own peril.

Funnily enough most Zionists 72% dont believe in God -yet in the next breath they say they are Gods Chosen people.....