Politics & Stuff

[Vesper 30,091]

lol, a football board is one of the few sane places to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian situ

 

[Vesper 30,091]

Israel & The Myth of 'Self Defence'

 

[Vesper 30,091]

In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias, during the 1948 Palestine war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba, in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning, and other sites subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names, and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.

The precise number of refugees, many of whom settled in refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute but around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes. About 250,000–300,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre, which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing, the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning, collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders, and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.

Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees. The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing, while others dispute this charge. Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charges of Apartheid against the State of Israel. The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will allow them the right to return to their homes, or compensate them, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere on 15 May, a date known as Nakba Day.

snip

 

 

 

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

The Arabs started the wars on all and every occasion.

- 1941 - Hitler's attempt 
- 1948
- 1955 - during the Suez crisis
- 1967
- 1972 - Munich
- 1973
- 9-11
- Hezbollah rockets from Lebanon
- indifada
- Al Aqsha flood

If Israel is defeated then there will be nukes stationed at the east med coasts aiming against Turkey-Greece-Cyprus-Italy.

[cosmicway 1,333]

So for the sake of argument you expect -would you- Turkey to attack Greece, Greece wins and repels the enemy but no single Turk suffers a nose bleed.
Istanbul - Izmir - Ankara stay in one piece.
Won't happen but can it happen ?

Edited October 16, 2023 by cosmicway

[Vesper 30,091]

2 hours ago, cosmicway said:

If Israel is defeated then there will be nukes stationed at the east med coasts aiming against Turkey-Greece-Cyprus-Italy.

non sequitur

no one us calling for Israel to be defeated

I just don't want to see the cycle of war crimes by both sides continue

there needs to be a 2 state solution 

with the 1967 borders honoured

Edited October 16, 2023 by Vesper

[cosmicway 1,333]

10 minutes ago, Vesper said:

non sequitur

no one us calling for Israel to be defeated

I just do want to see the cycle of war crimes by both sides continue

there needs to be a 2 state solution 

with the 1967 borders honoured

D day was a war crime.
Many soldiers died but not only soldiers. In the town of Caen that was heavily fortified by the Germans the French civilians were all but wiped out by the British bombardment.
We don't call it a war crime, the French don't call it a war crime.
We/they call only the nazis war criminals because they started the war.

You can't take away a nation's right to defend itself against invaders.
I don't see how a two state solution will stop Hamas-Hezbollah firing rockets like they do now.
They don't even want this to happen, they will sabotage it.
Only Blinken offered an idea of solution.

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

16 hours ago, Vesper said:

lol, a football board is one of the few sane places to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian situ

 

It was invaded by Israeli bots in 2012 when it was discussed 😬

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

Some things the corporate media doesnt let us know.

This year Israeli forces and settlers had murdered at least 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank as of August 22 2023. (Source UN Human Rights Watch, and Save the Cheildren)

 716 children have been killed in Gaza and another 2,450 have been injured since last Saturday, Oct 14th ( United Nations Children’s Fund)

Israeli Human Rights organisation Yesh Din says the chances of an Israeli soldier being indicted for killing a child is 0.7%

[robsblubot 3,595]

that's unsurprising and it's war... there will be collateral damage once the killing starts. At least it is "collateral damage" as opposed to targeting civilians.

Israel has a government tho; people can protest, demand, criticize and question their leaders and their decisions. Not so much on the other side.

From a government perspective alone, sorry I think in that, there is a clear winner even if fallible government like any other.

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

3 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

At least it is "collateral damage" as opposed to targeting civilians.

The sources are clear at least 2500 Palestinian Children killed by settlers and israeli forces since 2000. 96% of deaths in the same period are Palestinians, driven from their own land (UN). In a fucked up reality is it 'collateral'damage' it is delibarate targetting of civilians to steal their land. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

19 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The sources are clear at least 2500 Palestinian Children killed by settlers and israeli forces since 2000. 96% of deaths in the same period are Palestinians, driven from their own land (UN). In a fucked up reality is it 'collateral'damage' it is delibarate targetting of civilians to steal their land. 

Yeah definitely, if that's the reality of what happened. I honestly think points of views change drastically in that area. Would like to see how the data is acquired, who reported, and esp what is considered "own land." Depending on who you ask "own land" can drastically vary.

Wasn't the two-state on the table at some point in the past and was refused. The Palestinians refused it because they did not like the land division back then.

I don't pretend to know the motivation of what Israel does, but I know (from personal experience) that their life in that small stretch of land isn't a relaxing one; they are always looking out for aggression, and for good reason.

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

15 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Yeah definitely, if that's the reality of what happened. I honestly think points of views change drastically in that area. Would like to see how the data is acquired, who reported, and esp what is considered "own land." Depending on who you ask "own land" can drastically vary.

Wasn't the two-state on the table at some point in the past and was refused. The Palestinians refused it because they did not like the land division back then.

I don't pretend to know the motivation of what Israel does, but I know (from personal experience) that their life in that small stretch of land isn't a relaxing one; they are always looking out for aggression, and for good reason.

Yes its difficult, not helped by an Israeli right wing government. Previous israeli leaders are appalled by Netanyahu turning a blind eye at best and actively encouruaging stealing more land and killing Palestinians. 

''2022 was the deadliest year in decades for Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation, in which some 146 people were killed by Israeli forces. This year is on track to be even deadlier. In January and February, at least 60 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the occupied West Bank, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. '' TIME

Palestinian fears grow amid rising Israeli settler attacks

Palestinian fears grow amid rising Israeli settler attacks - BBC News

All of this led up to the retaliatory attacks by Hamas. We know two wrongs dont make a right, but context is everything.

Considering israeli intelligence is allegedly the best in the World, its remarkable they didnt know the Hamas retaliatory attack was coming. Maybe they were looking at the bigger picture, invading Gaza. Every time they have seized palestinian territory, since 1948 they havent returned it

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Yes its difficult, not helped by an Israeli right wing government. Previous israeli leaders are appalled by Netanyahu turning a blind eye at best and actively encouruaging stealing more land and killing Palestinians. 

''2022 was the deadliest year in decades for Palestinians living under Israeli military occupation, in which some 146 people were killed by Israeli forces. This year is on track to be even deadlier. In January and February, at least 60 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces or settlers in the occupied West Bank, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. '' TIME

Palestinian fears grow amid rising Israeli settler attacks

Palestinian fears grow amid rising Israeli settler attacks - BBC News

All of this led up to the retaliatory attacks by Hamas. We know two wrongs dont make a right, but context is everything.

Considering israeli intelligence is allegedly the best in the World, its remarkable they didnt know the Hamas retaliatory attack was coming. Maybe they were looking at the bigger picture, invading Gaza. Every time they have seized palestinian territory, since 1948 they havent returned it

Sorry, but I cannot agree with the "led" bit. I'm not sure there is equivalence here.

The author of the article you pasted above is also fairly controversial; there are several complaints regarding misinformation esp around "civilian" casualties. Terrorists are known to blur the lines between military and civilian targets.

And again, I'm not saying she is wrong, but suggesting that she may have a particular point of view, which is hard to avoid here.

[cosmicway 1,333]

There is a difference between civilian victims during war and terror.
Take for example the blitz.
The blitz was terror bombing. But the Germans were also after military targets, on the Thames.
It was by and large terror bombing -they bombed Saint Pauls- but they had some justification and all the others who performed similar actions offered some justification.
The infamous bombardier Harris also offered some justification.
Yet if any of those German pilots or RAF pilots were on the ground and they saw a child would they kill it in cold blood ? No way.

So Hamas terrorists are not the only kinds of terrorist but they are the ultimate and most depraved.
They beheaded small children and their moms who were defenseless and pleading for mercy.
The videos and the pictures they published themselves.

So Israel will be fools if they do not eradicated them from Gaza and anywhere else they are hiding.

Edited October 17, 2023 by cosmicway