Politics & Stuff

[cosmicway 1,333]

47 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Billionaires pay less, due to the tax structure, of a percentage of their wealth and income than do their secretaries.

Multi-national corporations often pay NO income tax (and some get billions in refunds), again to to an utterly regressive tax structure.

It's a rigged game from the top down.

Systemic control and nearly unlimited wealth and power for them.

Austerity and (outside of the upper middle class and higher in the West) ofttimes horrendous poverty and hardship for billions of folk across the globe.

Look.
If I want to see a minister of finance is it possible you think ?
Yes it is.
I go to the secretary and she fixes me a date. Done this in the past with government ministers about sports related matters.
But what can I take to him ?
Six cokes and six eggs from the nearby supermarket, Nikis and Xenofontos corner.
At the same time the big boys will go see him with two suitcases and it won't be eggs.
So all this you say is coals to Newcastle.
But the way socialists think overtaxing will cure everything is misplaced and archaic.
Furthermore the socialists tax the poor (but not trade unionists) mostly.

Edited September 7, 2024 by cosmicway

[Vesper 30,226]

1 minute ago, cosmicway said:

socialists think overtaxing

I am not a socialist

and it is not overtaxing

it is balancing out an incredibly unequal wealth distribution that is aided to a great degree (in the west especially in terms of total monies impacted) by an utterly regressive tax scheme

Sweden is in the process of destroying our wealth equality and our social welfare state due to massive systemic changes in our tax code over the past 20 odd years, changes where labour is smashed with taxes and specualtion-driven wealth and income are taxed at incredibly lower rates. Plus we have now once again manufactured a very likely to be permanent underclass with the massive 3rd world immigration over the past 25 or so years.

How Sweden became a paradise for billionaires

https://www.thelocal.se/20230128/listen-how-sweden-became-a-paradise-for-billionaires/

Direct links to both parts of the podcast:

Part 1

https://play.acast.com/s/77ca3392-3d6f-434f-8821-6472a6c25d8d/63d2aec7c539150011b7632f

Part 2

https://play.acast.com/s/77ca3392-3d6f-434f-8821-6472a6c25d8d/63d8dce99ba029001177c6d6


Ten terrifying stats about Sweden from the hit book Girig-Sverige

Economy reporter Andreas Cervenka won Sweden's most coveted journalist prize for 'Girig-Sverige' (Greedy Sweden), his polemic on wealth, debt, and inequality, which the judges said had "brought forward a new picture of the country". We picked out some of the most striking statistics.

https://www.thelocal.se/20230127/ten-terrifying-stats-about-sweden-from-the-hit-book-girig-sverige/?tpcc=podcast-article

 

a newer article:

The rise of Sweden's super rich

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68927238

Sweden has a global reputation for championing high taxes and social equality, but it has become a European hotspot for the super rich.

On Lidingö island there are huge red and yellow wooden villas on rocky cliff tops, and white minimalist mansions with floor to ceiling windows.

Less than half an hour's drive from Stockholm city centre, this is one of Sweden's wealthiest neighbourhoods.

Serial entrepreneur Konrad Bergström flicks the light switch in his wine cellar, to reveal the 3,000 bottles he's got stored there. "French Bordeaux, that's what I love," he says, flashing a bright white smile.

Elsewhere, there's an outdoor pool, a gym upholstered in reindeer leather, and a workshop-cum-nightclub, complete with a large metal urinal.

"I have a lot of musical friends, so we play a lot of music," explains Bergström. He made his money co-founding businesses including a headphones and speaker company, and this home is one of four properties he owns in Sweden and Spain.

It's not a surprising lifestyle for a successful entrepreneur, but what might surprise global observers is how many people have become as wealthy as Mr Bergström - or even richer - in Sweden - a country with a global reputation for its leftist politics.

Although a right-wing coalition is currently in power, the nation has been run by Social Democrat-led governments for the majority of the last century, elected on promises to grow the economy in an equitable way, with taxes funding a strong welfare state.

But Sweden has experienced a boom in the super rich over the last three decades.

In 1996, there were just 28 people with a net worth of a billion kronor or more (around $91m or £73m at today's exchange rate), according to a rich list published by former Swedish business magazine Veckans Affärer. Most of them came from families that had been rich for generations.

• BBC World Service - The Documentary Podcast, Super-rich Swedes

By 2021, there were 542 "kronor billionaires", according to a similar analysis by daily newspaper Aftonbladet, and between them they owned a wealth equivalent to 70% of the nation's GDP, a measure of the total value of goods and services in the economy.

Sweden - with a population of just 10 million - also has one of the world's highest proportions of "dollar billionaires" per capita. Forbes listed 43 Swedes worth $1bn or more in its 2024 rich list.

That equates to around four per million people, compared to about two per million in the US (which has 813 billionaires - the most of any nation - but is home to more than 342 million people).

"This has come about in a sort of a stealthy way - that you haven't really noticed it until after it happened," says Andreas Cervenka, a journalist at Aftonbladet, and author of the book Greedy Sweden, in which he explores the steady rise of Sweden's super rich.

"But in Stockholm, you can see the wealth with your own eyes, and the contrast between super rich people in some areas of Stockholm and quite poor people in other parts."

One reason for the rise of the new super rich is Sweden's thriving tech scene. The country has a reputation as the Silicon Valley of Europe, having produced more than 40 so-called unicorn start-ups - companies worth more than $1bn - in the past two decades.

Skype and Spotify were founded here, as well as gaming firms King and Mojang. More recent global success stories include the financial tech start-up Tink, which Visa acquired for around $2bn during the pandemic, healthcare company Kry, and the e-scooter company Voi.

At Epicenter - a shared office and community space with a giant glass atrium - veteran entrepreneur Ola Ahlvarsson traces this success back to the 1990s. He says a tax rebate on home computers in Sweden "wired or connected all of us much faster than other countries".

A serial co-founder himself, he also points to a strong "culture of collaboration" in the start-up scene, with accomplished entrepreneurs often becoming role models for - and investors in - the next generation of tech companies.

Sweden's size makes it a popular test market, too. "If you want to see if it works on a larger market, you can - at limited cost and without too much risk for your brand or for your stock price - try things here," says Mr Ahlvarsson.

But Mr Cervenka argues there is another narrative that deserves more attention - monetary policies which he says have helped transform the country into a paradise for the super rich.

Sweden had very low interest rates from the early 2010s until a couple of years ago. This made it cheap to borrow money, so Swedes with cash to spare often chose to invest in property, or high risk investments like tech start-ups, many of which shot up in value as a result.

"One of the big factors that's driven this huge increase in billionaires is that we've had, for a number of years, quite a strong inflation in the value of assets," says Mr Cervenka.

Although top earners in Sweden are taxed more than 50% of their personal incomes - one of the highest rates in Europe - he argues that successive governments - on the right and left - have adjusted some taxes in a way that favours the rich.

The country scrapped wealth and inheritance taxes in the 2000s, and tax rates on money made from stocks and pay outs to company shareholders are much lower than taxes on salaries. The corporate tax rate has also dropped from around 30% in the 1990s to around 20% - slightly lower than the European average.

"You don't have to move out of Sweden if you're a billionaire today. And actually, some billionaires are moving here," says Mr Cervenka.

Back on Lidingö island, Konrad Bergström agrees that Sweden has "a very favourable tax system if you are building companies". However he says his wealth has a positive impact because his businesses - and homes - provide employment for others.

"We have a nanny and we have a gardener and cleaners… and that also gives more jobs. So we shouldn't forget about how we're building the society."

Mr Bergström points out that wealthy Swedish entrepreneurs and venture capitalists are also increasingly reinvesting their money in so-called "impact" start-ups, which have a focus on improving society or the environment.

In 2023, 74% of all venture capital funding to Swedish start-ups went to impact companies. This the highest percentage in the EU, and far above the European average of 35%, according to figures from Dealroom, which maps data on start-ups.

Perhaps the country's most high profile impact investor is Niklas Adalberth, who co-founded the unicorn payments platform Klarna. In 2017, he used $130m of his fortune to launch the Norrsken Foundation, an organisation that supports and invests in impact companies.

"I don't have the habits of a billionaire in terms of having a yacht or a private jet or anything like that," says Mr Adalberth. "This is my recipe for happiness."

But others argue that Sweden is missing a nuanced public debate about billionaire wealth, beyond a good-bad dichotomy of how entrepreneurs are spending their fortunes.

Recent research from Örebro University concluded that the media image of Swedish billionaires is predominantly positive, and suggested that their fortunes are rarely explained in the context of the nation's shifting economic policies.

"As long as the super-rich are seen to embody the ideals of the neoliberal era, such as hard work, taking risks, and an entrepreneurial attitude, the inequality behind this is not questioned," says media researcher Axel Vikström.

Mr Cervenka adds that debates about taxing the super rich are not as pronounced in Sweden as they are in many other western countries, such as the US.

"That's sort of a paradox. One would think that with our background - being perceived as a socialist country - this would be top of mind," says the author. "I think it has to do with [the fact] that we have become more of a mentality of 'winner takes it all'.

"That, if you just play your cards right, you can also become a billionaire… And that's quite a significant shift, I think, in Swedish mentality."

Sweden's rich list also reveals that the nation's wealth remains largely concentrated in the hands of white men, despite the country's large immigrant population and decades of policies championing gender equality.

"Yes, it's where people can create new money, create new wealth, but it's still very closed and the double standards are quite high in terms of who gets their ideas funded," says Lola Akinmade, a Nigerian-Swedish novelist and entrepreneur. "Sweden is an incredible country that's a leader in many ways, but there's still a lot of people excluded from the system."

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

37 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I am not a socialist

and it is not overtaxing

it is balancing out an incredibly unequal wealth distribution that is aided to a great degree (in the west especially in terms of total monies impacted) by an utterly regressive tax scheme

Sweden is in the process of destroying our wealth equality and our social welfare state due to massive systemic changes in our tax code over the past 20 odd years, changes where labour is smashed with taxes and specualtion-driven wealth and income are taxed at incredibly lower rates. Plus we have now once again manufactured a very likely to be permanent underclass with the massive 3rd world immigration over the past 25 or so years.

How Sweden became a paradise for billionaires

https://www.thelocal.se/20230128/listen-how-sweden-became-a-paradise-for-billionaires/

Direct links to both parts of the podcast:

Part 1

https://play.acast.com/s/77ca3392-3d6f-434f-8821-6472a6c25d8d/63d2aec7c539150011b7632f

Part 2

https://play.acast.com/s/77ca3392-3d6f-434f-8821-6472a6c25d8d/63d8dce99ba029001177c6d6


Ten terrifying stats about Sweden from the hit book Girig-Sverige

Economy reporter Andreas Cervenka won Sweden's most coveted journalist prize for 'Girig-Sverige' (Greedy Sweden), his polemic on wealth, debt, and inequality, which the judges said had "brought forward a new picture of the country". We picked out some of the most striking statistics.

https://www.thelocal.se/20230127/ten-terrifying-stats-about-sweden-from-the-hit-book-girig-sverige/?tpcc=podcast-article

 

a newer article:

The rise of Sweden's super rich

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68927238

Sweden has a global reputation for championing high taxes and social equality, but it has become a European hotspot for the super rich.

On Lidingö island there are huge red and yellow wooden villas on rocky cliff tops, and white minimalist mansions with floor to ceiling windows.

Less than half an hour's drive from Stockholm city centre, this is one of Sweden's wealthiest neighbourhoods.

Serial entrepreneur Konrad Bergström flicks the light switch in his wine cellar, to reveal the 3,000 bottles he's got stored there. "French Bordeaux, that's what I love," he says, flashing a bright white smile.

Elsewhere, there's an outdoor pool, a gym upholstered in reindeer leather, and a workshop-cum-nightclub, complete with a large metal urinal.

"I have a lot of musical friends, so we play a lot of music," explains Bergström. He made his money co-founding businesses including a headphones and speaker company, and this home is one of four properties he owns in Sweden and Spain.

It's not a surprising lifestyle for a successful entrepreneur, but what might surprise global observers is how many people have become as wealthy as Mr Bergström - or even richer - in Sweden - a country with a global reputation for its leftist politics.

Although a right-wing coalition is currently in power, the nation has been run by Social Democrat-led governments for the majority of the last century, elected on promises to grow the economy in an equitable way, with taxes funding a strong welfare state.

But Sweden has experienced a boom in the super rich over the last three decades.

In 1996, there were just 28 people with a net worth of a billion kronor or more (around $91m or £73m at today's exchange rate), according to a rich list published by former Swedish business magazine Veckans Affärer. Most of them came from families that had been rich for generations.

• BBC World Service - The Documentary Podcast, Super-rich Swedes

By 2021, there were 542 "kronor billionaires", according to a similar analysis by daily newspaper Aftonbladet, and between them they owned a wealth equivalent to 70% of the nation's GDP, a measure of the total value of goods and services in the economy.

Sweden - with a population of just 10 million - also has one of the world's highest proportions of "dollar billionaires" per capita. Forbes listed 43 Swedes worth $1bn or more in its 2024 rich list.

That equates to around four per million people, compared to about two per million in the US (which has 813 billionaires - the most of any nation - but is home to more than 342 million people).

"This has come about in a sort of a stealthy way - that you haven't really noticed it until after it happened," says Andreas Cervenka, a journalist at Aftonbladet, and author of the book Greedy Sweden, in which he explores the steady rise of Sweden's super rich.

"But in Stockholm, you can see the wealth with your own eyes, and the contrast between super rich people in some areas of Stockholm and quite poor people in other parts."

One reason for the rise of the new super rich is Sweden's thriving tech scene. The country has a reputation as the Silicon Valley of Europe, having produced more than 40 so-called unicorn start-ups - companies worth more than $1bn - in the past two decades.

Skype and Spotify were founded here, as well as gaming firms King and Mojang. More recent global success stories include the financial tech start-up Tink, which Visa acquired for around $2bn during the pandemic, healthcare company Kry, and the e-scooter company Voi.

At Epicenter - a shared office and community space with a giant glass atrium - veteran entrepreneur Ola Ahlvarsson traces this success back to the 1990s. He says a tax rebate on home computers in Sweden "wired or connected all of us much faster than other countries".

A serial co-founder himself, he also points to a strong "culture of collaboration" in the start-up scene, with accomplished entrepreneurs often becoming role models for - and investors in - the next generation of tech companies.

Sweden's size makes it a popular test market, too. "If you want to see if it works on a larger market, you can - at limited cost and without too much risk for your brand or for your stock price - try things here," says Mr Ahlvarsson.

But Mr Cervenka argues there is another narrative that deserves more attention - monetary policies which he says have helped transform the country into a paradise for the super rich.

Sweden had very low interest rates from the early 2010s until a couple of years ago. This made it cheap to borrow money, so Swedes with cash to spare often chose to invest in property, or high risk investments like tech start-ups, many of which shot up in value as a result.

"One of the big factors that's driven this huge increase in billionaires is that we've had, for a number of years, quite a strong inflation in the value of assets," says Mr Cervenka.

Although top earners in Sweden are taxed more than 50% of their personal incomes - one of the highest rates in Europe - he argues that successive governments - on the right and left - have adjusted some taxes in a way that favours the rich.

The country scrapped wealth and inheritance taxes in the 2000s, and tax rates on money made from stocks and pay outs to company shareholders are much lower than taxes on salaries. The corporate tax rate has also dropped from around 30% in the 1990s to around 20% - slightly lower than the European average.

"You don't have to move out of Sweden if you're a billionaire today. And actually, some billionaires are moving here," says Mr Cervenka.

Back on Lidingö island, Konrad Bergström agrees that Sweden has "a very favourable tax system if you are building companies". However he says his wealth has a positive impact because his businesses - and homes - provide employment for others.

"We have a nanny and we have a gardener and cleaners… and that also gives more jobs. So we shouldn't forget about how we're building the society."

Mr Bergström points out that wealthy Swedish entrepreneurs and venture capitalists are also increasingly reinvesting their money in so-called "impact" start-ups, which have a focus on improving society or the environment.

In 2023, 74% of all venture capital funding to Swedish start-ups went to impact companies. This the highest percentage in the EU, and far above the European average of 35%, according to figures from Dealroom, which maps data on start-ups.

Perhaps the country's most high profile impact investor is Niklas Adalberth, who co-founded the unicorn payments platform Klarna. In 2017, he used $130m of his fortune to launch the Norrsken Foundation, an organisation that supports and invests in impact companies.

"I don't have the habits of a billionaire in terms of having a yacht or a private jet or anything like that," says Mr Adalberth. "This is my recipe for happiness."

But others argue that Sweden is missing a nuanced public debate about billionaire wealth, beyond a good-bad dichotomy of how entrepreneurs are spending their fortunes.

Recent research from Örebro University concluded that the media image of Swedish billionaires is predominantly positive, and suggested that their fortunes are rarely explained in the context of the nation's shifting economic policies.

"As long as the super-rich are seen to embody the ideals of the neoliberal era, such as hard work, taking risks, and an entrepreneurial attitude, the inequality behind this is not questioned," says media researcher Axel Vikström.

Mr Cervenka adds that debates about taxing the super rich are not as pronounced in Sweden as they are in many other western countries, such as the US.

"That's sort of a paradox. One would think that with our background - being perceived as a socialist country - this would be top of mind," says the author. "I think it has to do with [the fact] that we have become more of a mentality of 'winner takes it all'.

"That, if you just play your cards right, you can also become a billionaire… And that's quite a significant shift, I think, in Swedish mentality."

Sweden's rich list also reveals that the nation's wealth remains largely concentrated in the hands of white men, despite the country's large immigrant population and decades of policies championing gender equality.

"Yes, it's where people can create new money, create new wealth, but it's still very closed and the double standards are quite high in terms of who gets their ideas funded," says Lola Akinmade, a Nigerian-Swedish novelist and entrepreneur. "Sweden is an incredible country that's a leader in many ways, but there's still a lot of people excluded from the system."

 

The government has to find money somewhere.
Let's talk about something we all agree, across the political spectrum.
Weapons.
We need F35s and F16s and submarines fitted with electronic equpment capable of evading detection and antisubmarine traps.
So it's "δει δη χρημάτων ω άνδρες Αθηναίοι", is the truth.
With this in mind there are gross injustices and the socialists like to tax the poor in an absurd way.

Back in 1994 there was the propaganda about the doctors of Kolonaki (the posh district) who were "tax evading".
Whether they were doing or not and whether doctors who had their surgeries in working class neighbourhoods were not doing it, I have no idea.
But after the socialists won the heavy tax fell not only on the doctors as the stupid masses believed it would, but on the doctors as well as the chestnut vendors and the
poor scuba divers who collect sponges in the islands !
Then in 2010 the same propaganda again against the doctors of Kolonaki again, to justify new taxes. I was surprised because it was the same as before, but the stupid
masses had forgotten all about it - to them it was new propaganda !
Yet the effect was that many people declared bankruptcy so after that they were paying no tax at all.
That tells us it's not only about money but also social engineering.

I don't care about the big companies and the multinationals.
Some say they should be taxed more, some others say they should be taxed less so as to encourage investment.
All I know is I 'm destroyed by the governments (socialist and other) while at the same time companies Citroen, Opel, Mercedes Benz never hurt me - not directly at least.

If I could I would go to Australia.
The Aussies are soft hearted and if I cry they will let me stay there.
 

Edited September 7, 2024 by cosmicway

[Vesper 30,226]

"The Four Billionaire Horseman of the American Apocalypse"

Acrylic Paint, 2021

 

Richest people on the planet atm

1 (when combined)

Larry Page
$126.3 B

Sergey Brin
$121.1 B

Total combined $247.4 B

Both are 51
Google
United States
 

2
Elon Musk
$241.8 B

53
Tesla, SpaceX
United States
    
3
Jeff Bezos
$190.4 B
60
Amazon
United States
    
4
Mark Zuckerberg
$175.4 B
40
Facebook
United States
    

 

Edited September 7, 2024 by Vesper

[Vesper 30,226]

5 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

I don't care about the big companies and the multinationals.

and there is a fatal flaw, m8

[cosmicway 1,333]

2 minutes ago, Vesper said:

"The Four Billionaire Horseman of the American Apocalypse"

Acrylic Paint, 2021

 

Richest people on the planet atm

1 (when combined)

Larry Page
$126.3 B

Sergey Brin
$121.1 B

Total combined $247.4 B

Both are 51
Google
United States
 

2
Elon Musk
$241.8 B

53
Tesla, SpaceX
United States
    
3
Jeff Bezos
$190.4 B
60
Amazon
United States
    
4
Mark Zuckerberg
$173.4 B
40
Facebook
United States
    

 

I never liked facebook all that much.
The reason is we can't have debates.
When something like a debate starts it dies in a few hours.
In a forum I can start a thread and it stays for ever. It may even be revived two years from now.
Anyway when writing sums of money, you should tell us what you 'd like to do with it (and if you say I 'd like them for myself it does n't count).
 

[cosmicway 1,333]

2 minutes ago, Vesper said:

and there is a fatal flaw, m8

You must add all the monies you are targetting and then divide them with the population total.
Otherwise it is becoming like Buckingham palace. The peoples commissars take it, open the corridors to the tourists and then what ? I would probably not even go there. I prefer the strip tease clubs in Piccadilly.
The idea of supertaxation has flaws in it.
It does n't work.
Governments are more interested in the lifetime of money.
So every euro coin that comes out of your pocket has a lifetime. You buy chewing gum, 10% goes to the government. With the remaining you buy something else and again a percentage goes to the government. Ultimately the one euro returns to it's base, the government and the faster this happens the more happy they are.
My problem is simply why they want to tax people out of business and then get nothing from them.

[Vesper 30,226]

Just now, cosmicway said:

I never liked facebook all that much.
The reason is we can't have debates.
When something like a debate starts it dies in a few hours.
In a forum I can start a thread and it stays for ever. It may even be revived two years from now.
Anyway when writing sums of money, you should tell us what you 'd like to do with it (and if you say I 'd like them for myself it does n't count).
 

In re the West and core first world:

Smash the gobal systemic banking system (on international, national, and massive private banking levels)

Wealth inequality reduction on a massive scale

End austerity regimes for social welfare regimes

Scupper the military industrial complexes and the endless wars to preserve the petrol/dollar matrix

Remove the for-profit nature from vital human services (like heathcare)

All-out assault, on a global basis, to combat global climate change

Kick off a half century (or a full century, if need be) plan to sort out Africa

Introduce UBI

THINK BIG

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

12 minutes ago, Vesper said:

In re the West and core first world:

Smash the gobal systemic banking system (on international, national, and massive private banking levels)

Wealth inequality reduction on a massive scale

End austerity regimes for social welfare regimes

Scupper the military industrial complexes and the endless wars to preserve the petrol/dollar matrix

Remove the for-profit nature from vital human services (like heathcare)

All-out assault, on a global basis, to combat global climate change

Kick off a half century (or a full century, if need be) plan to sort out Africa

Introduce UBI

THINK BIG

 

 

Climate change is a lie.
Over several billion years yes, there will be new age of the dinosaurs and what have you.
But the Thunberg myth is a lie.

[Vesper 30,226]

47 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

Climate change is a lie.

sorry, but that is absolutely delusional

[Vesper 30,226]

I am not going to get into a debate with crackpot climate change denialism

complete waste of time over massively settled science that is an existential threat to humanity

[cosmicway 1,333]

18 minutes ago, Vesper said:

I am not going to get into a debate with crackpot climate change denialism

complete waste of time over massively settled science that is an existential threat to humanity

It is over geological ages.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

How climate change is driving extreme fires in Greece

 

Just as an enormous wildfire tears through the suburbs of Athens, scientists in Europe are racing to understand why "extreme" fires like this are becoming more common.

The conditions for some of these fierce blazes have become between three and 20 times more likely, according to the first research of its kind.

 

The new annual review of what is causing extreme fires, and whether we can predict them, comes off the back of a staggeringly destructive wildfire season from March 2023 to February 2024.

Record-breaking flames scorched Canada and turned skies far away in New York orange and grey. The largest recorded fires in the European Union killed 19 people in Greece, and blazes in western Amazonia brought filthy air to local towns.

Today's major study, published in the peer-reviewed journal Earth System Science Data, finds carbon emissions from wildfires in 2023-2024 were 16% above average, spewing out 8.2 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

 

 

And, had it not been a quiet fire season in the African savannahs, the global emission from wildfires would have been the greatest of any fire season on record since 2003, they said.

Image:Parthenon shrouded in smoke from Greek wildfires

Image:Pic: Reuters

What is an 'extreme' wildfire?

There is no single definition of what constitutes an extreme fire, because it is relative to the location, said one of the authors Dr Douglas Kelley, from the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology (UKCEH).

It could be measured by things like burned area, intensity, or how unusual they are, depending on the region.

 

But they used three mega blazes in Canada, Greece, and western Amazonia last year as a benchmark.

The current flames in Greece would count as an extreme fire because of its proximity to and potential damage to people, said fellow author Dr Joe McNorton from the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF).

At 200 square kilometres, this year's fires in Greece are still much smaller than the 900 square kilometres burned last fire season.

That's because the current flames are at the "wildland-urban interface", which brings with it "potential loss of life, destruction, economic devastation" said Dr McNorton.

Image:Pic: Reuters

Climate change raised the chances of unprecedented fires last year

Human-driven climate change made the tinderbox conditions of 2023-24 up to three times more likely in Greece, similar in Canada and 20 times more likely in western Amazonia, today's paper found.

They then looked at "how likely we are to get them in the future", said Dr Kelley.

If the world warms by up to 2C by 2100, sticking to Paris Agreement goals, they project such a fire in Canada will be two to three times more likely, but no change in Greece and western Amazonia.

But if temperatures warm by more like 3C, extreme fires like last year will be up to 11 times more likely in Canada, three in Greece and 1.3 in western Amazonia.

Other research shows the number of intense fires has been rising.

How does climate change impact extreme fires?

Climate change is "clearly increasing" fire conditions, said Dr Matthew Jones from the University of East Anglia.

Warmer temperatures dry out forests, which make a fire "more likely to spread", said Dr Kelley. It can also cause more vegetation to grow, which provides more "fuel" for the fire.

Human factors also influence fires, like starting them themselves, or breaking up the landscape, or how well they fight them.

0:59

 

 

 

 

Play Video - Drone captures damage of Greece wildfires

Drone captures damage of Greece wildfires

How do fires impact climate change?

Although the number of extreme fires is on the up, the total amount of land being burned has been decreasing.

That is a bit of a "red herring" said Dr Jones, because it's due to a fall in the less harmful savannah fires, as things like agriculture break up the grassland, often bringing better protection or irrigation.

But what scientists are really concerned about is the rise in wildfires in forests.

Forest wildfires release more carbon emissions, pose a higher risk to people, take longer to recover, and mean the loss of huge carbon storage.

Image:The total amount of land burned globally has been falling, largely due to a decrease of fires in savannah areas Pic: Jones et al (2024)

Image:CO2 emissions from fires have not changed much even though land area burned has fallen, because now more dense forests are burning Pic: Jones et al (2024)

Read more from Sky News:
New warning about 'demise' of Great Barrier Reef
Britain's smallest house 'at risk' due to climate change

That's why global fire emissions have barely budged even though land area burned has fallen - and there's a fear global emissions from fires could soon increase.

More extreme fires in Canada and western Amazonia are "quite worrying... in ecosystems which hold a lot of carbon and in some cases, don't experience much fire today, so they haven't really adapted to it," said Dr Kelley.

Image:70-year-old Sakis Morfis inspects the damage in Greece

What can be done?

Dr Clair Barnes from Imperial College London, who was not involved with the study, said she hopes the report will both "guide preparations for wildfires, and help the world understand the simple fact that fires will keep getting worse until fossil fuels are replaced with renewable energy sources".

Scientists agree that emissions need to fall in order to avoid future risk - but that will take a long time to have an impact.

In the meantime, the authors said, leaders should consider protecting forest boundaries, reducing the amount of natural fuel fire, imposing fire bans on high-risk days, and investing more in early warning prediction systems.

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

23 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

How climate change is driving extreme fires in Greece

 

Just as an enormous wildfire tears through the suburbs of Athens, scientists in Europe are racing to understand why "extreme" fires like this are becoming more common.

The conditions for some of these fierce blazes have become between three and 20 times more likely, according to the first research of its kind.

 

The new annual review of what is causing extreme fires, and whether we can predict them, comes off the back of a staggeringly destructive wildfire season from March 2023 to February 2024.

Record-breaking flames scorched Canada and turned skies far away in New York orange and grey. The largest recorded fires in the European Union killed 19 people in Greece, and blazes in western Amazonia brought filthy air to local towns.

Today's major study, published in the peer-reviewed journal Earth System Science Data, finds carbon emissions from wildfires in 2023-2024 were 16% above average, spewing out 8.2 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

 

 

And, had it not been a quiet fire season in the African savannahs, the global emission from wildfires would have been the greatest of any fire season on record since 2003, they said.

Image:Parthenon shrouded in smoke from Greek wildfires

Image:Pic: Reuters

What is an 'extreme' wildfire?

There is no single definition of what constitutes an extreme fire, because it is relative to the location, said one of the authors Dr Douglas Kelley, from the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology (UKCEH).

It could be measured by things like burned area, intensity, or how unusual they are, depending on the region.

 

But they used three mega blazes in Canada, Greece, and western Amazonia last year as a benchmark.

The current flames in Greece would count as an extreme fire because of its proximity to and potential damage to people, said fellow author Dr Joe McNorton from the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF).

At 200 square kilometres, this year's fires in Greece are still much smaller than the 900 square kilometres burned last fire season.

That's because the current flames are at the "wildland-urban interface", which brings with it "potential loss of life, destruction, economic devastation" said Dr McNorton.

Image:Pic: Reuters

Climate change raised the chances of unprecedented fires last year

Human-driven climate change made the tinderbox conditions of 2023-24 up to three times more likely in Greece, similar in Canada and 20 times more likely in western Amazonia, today's paper found.

They then looked at "how likely we are to get them in the future", said Dr Kelley.

If the world warms by up to 2C by 2100, sticking to Paris Agreement goals, they project such a fire in Canada will be two to three times more likely, but no change in Greece and western Amazonia.

But if temperatures warm by more like 3C, extreme fires like last year will be up to 11 times more likely in Canada, three in Greece and 1.3 in western Amazonia.

Other research shows the number of intense fires has been rising.

How does climate change impact extreme fires?

Climate change is "clearly increasing" fire conditions, said Dr Matthew Jones from the University of East Anglia.

Warmer temperatures dry out forests, which make a fire "more likely to spread", said Dr Kelley. It can also cause more vegetation to grow, which provides more "fuel" for the fire.

Human factors also influence fires, like starting them themselves, or breaking up the landscape, or how well they fight them.

0:59

 

 

 

 

Play Video - Drone captures damage of Greece wildfires

 

Drone captures damage of Greece wildfires

How do fires impact climate change?

Although the number of extreme fires is on the up, the total amount of land being burned has been decreasing.

That is a bit of a "red herring" said Dr Jones, because it's due to a fall in the less harmful savannah fires, as things like agriculture break up the grassland, often bringing better protection or irrigation.

But what scientists are really concerned about is the rise in wildfires in forests.

Forest wildfires release more carbon emissions, pose a higher risk to people, take longer to recover, and mean the loss of huge carbon storage.

Image:The total amount of land burned globally has been falling, largely due to a decrease of fires in savannah areas Pic: Jones et al (2024)

Image:CO2 emissions from fires have not changed much even though land area burned has fallen, because now more dense forests are burning Pic: Jones et al (2024)

Read more from Sky News:
New warning about 'demise' of Great Barrier Reef
Britain's smallest house 'at risk' due to climate change

That's why global fire emissions have barely budged even though land area burned has fallen - and there's a fear global emissions from fires could soon increase.

More extreme fires in Canada and western Amazonia are "quite worrying... in ecosystems which hold a lot of carbon and in some cases, don't experience much fire today, so they haven't really adapted to it," said Dr Kelley.

Image:70-year-old Sakis Morfis inspects the damage in Greece

What can be done?

Dr Clair Barnes from Imperial College London, who was not involved with the study, said she hopes the report will both "guide preparations for wildfires, and help the world understand the simple fact that fires will keep getting worse until fossil fuels are replaced with renewable energy sources".

Scientists agree that emissions need to fall in order to avoid future risk - but that will take a long time to have an impact.

In the meantime, the authors said, leaders should consider protecting forest boundaries, reducing the amount of natural fuel fire, imposing fire bans on high-risk days, and investing more in early warning prediction systems.

 

We 've been having forest fires ever since I can recall.
I remember them from the eighties as a matter of fact, when I took part in extinguishing a fire as an airman.
But must have been happening always.
It's auto-inflection in most cases but there are other causes too and a number of people have been accused for arson.
Does n't look like "climate change".
To be honest I don't remember about fires before 1980. Can it be because it was then they started for real or just because I don't remember ?
In England it does n't happen. The English rain saves the forests.

Edited September 7, 2024 by cosmicway

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

14 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

In England it does n't happen. The English rain saves the forests

Fire services in England dealt with nearly 25,000 wildfires this summer, almost four times that recorded over the same period in 2021, figures show. Some forces tackled more than 50 wildfires a day amid droughts and record-breaking temperatures of more than 40C. More than 800 wildfires were recorded on 19 July alone.

[robsblubot 3,595]

The point is always the same: *I* remember... where *I* live... 🤷‍♂️

Disregard science for a second here and ask, who does benefit from the idea that Climate Change isn't a problem? Who does benefit from the idea that it is. The former includes (all) the oil industry.

We've been through that in a discussion recently: 

 

[Vesper 30,226]

47 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Fire services in England dealt with nearly 25,000 wildfires this summer, almost four times that recorded over the same period in 2021, figures show. Some forces tackled more than 50 wildfires a day amid droughts and record-breaking temperatures of more than 40C. More than 800 wildfires were recorded on 19 July alone.

Arguing empirical science with climate change denialists is like arguing with flat earthers or lunar landing denialists.

They are emotionally and/or ideoligically invested in pushing their false narratives (for a variety of reasons, ranging from simple stupidity, OR a profound lack of understanding (often wilful) basic science, OR their being professional shills, OR their being people who have been gaslighted into taking the denialist stance to 'own the libs' or 'freedom!', because that is how they express their programmed RW inclinations, etc etc).

[Vesper 30,226]

1 minute ago, robsblubot said:

who does benefit from the idea that Climate Change isn't a problem

Right wing politicians and pundits as well, as they use it as a wedge issue, a tribal stance to keep their followers on 'the team'. It is classic 'let's play game of YOU and THEM fight'. It is emotional identity manipulation.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

30 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Arguing empirical science with climate change denialists is like arguing with flat earthers or lunar landing denialists.

They are emotionally and/or ideoligically invested in pushing their false narratives (for a variety of reasons, ranging from simple stupidity, OR a profound lack of understanding (often wilful) basic science, OR their being professional shills, OR their being people who have been gaslighted into taking the denialist stance to 'own the libs' or 'freedom!', because that is how they express their programmed RW inclinations, etc etc).

Once i was in the market square at Pirraeus -it was the time of Stavros Poppadapadapadapoulis when there was a socialist uprising. On my mind was 'If a man gives you a glass of water, do you ask for bacon ?'  It is a problem for brexiters and the commies, but for me it was simple - you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it do backstroke, esprcially in a recession. The water is full of migrants that are Erdogan spies, but most are commie agitators that drink champagne and the horse vomitted. That is not climate change

[Vesper 30,226]

24 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

'If a man gives you a glass of water, do you ask for bacon ?' 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Poppadapadapadapoulis