Politics & Stuff

[Fernando 6,523]

  On 10/08/2014 at 16:51, Stingray said:

Ok then ....

Lets start with a very neutral documentary about the 6 day war ....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YZYBUdzJuqI

If you wanna dive in more try

http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the_top_10_documentaries_about_the_israelpalestine_conflict/

The two award winters are 5 Broken Camera's (palestinian/Israeli collaboration about life as a palestinian in Bi'lin) . The doc about the history of zionism is also informative

and The Gatekeepers (Israeli documentary about Shin Bet, the secret service with those leading it) http://putlocker.is/watch-the-gatekeepers-online-free-putlocker.html

One of these links should work.

If you want books , start with : Our Harsh Logic http://www.amazon.com/Our-Harsh-Logic-Testimonies-Territories-ebook/dp/B0080K3FE0

More on the historical issue, try searching for articles by Ilan Pappé, one of the main new historians.

Other voices that speak out: Uri Avnery, Max Blumenthal, Noam Chomsky, Jonathan Cook, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, Ilan Pappé, Henry Siegman and Philip Weiss

I hope you give it a chance.

Going to take some time to go through this, but I'll give you feedback as I finish one thing. Tomorrow I'll check tha YouTube video and so on and so on.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/the-photo-that-will-shock-the-world-jihadist-khaled-sharroufs-son-7-holds-severed-head/story-fni0cx12-1227019897582

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 09/08/2014 at 10:02, Fernando said:

Yes I don't debate all that I never did.

I'm just challenging your original idea that intervention cause terrorist organization.

And I pointed that your wrong because if it was true it would have happened in every country.

But for some reason it only happens in the middle east and not in Nicaragua, Dominican Republic and such....

"I punched the vase, but it's not my fault that it broke because I also punched the wall and it's totally fine."

[Fernando 6,523]

@Stingray,

Okay I saw the video that you said was

"very neutral documentary about the 6 day war"

And I saw nothing life changing. Just what I thought, all these Arabs nation hating Israel and wanting to wipe them out of the face of the earth.

Similar to what Iran has said these past few years....

So what was your point with that before I continue?

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 15:46, Fernando said:

@Stingray,

Okay I saw the video that you said was

"very neutral documentary about the 6 day war"

And I saw nothing life changing. Just what I thought, all these Arabs nation hating Israel and wanting to wipe them out of the face of the earth.

Similar to what Iran has said these past few years....

So what was your point with that before I continue?

The point is you need more context. One of the main messages was that it wasnt David against Goliath at all as Israel claimed. Also, they performed a preemptive strike on the Egyptian airforce first, the Israeli generals punched through beyond their original mission starting the never ending expanding still going on now, despite UN etc,etc etc.

Also: the palestinians where left in the dark by other arabs at the time, etc. It shows the dire fate of the palestinians, who are still now a people left by everyone. Which the entire point of the debate.

Your viewing is very ...... weird to say the least if all you conclude it is arabs hating Israel.

But hey, it is only a starting point. Im wondering if you can see beyond 'arabs' hating the poor Israelites. Because it is much much more.

[Fernando 6,523]

  On 11/08/2014 at 17:44, Stingray said:

The point is you need more context. One of the main messages was that it wasnt David against Goliath at all as Israel claimed. Also, they performed a preemptive strike on the Egyptian airforce first, the Israeli generals punched through beyond their original mission starting the never ending expanding still going on now, despite UN etc,etc etc.

Also: the palestinians where left in the dark by other arabs at the time, etc. It shows the dire fate of the palestinians, who are still now a people left by everyone. Which the entire point of the debate.

Your viewing is very ...... weird to say the least if all you conclude it is arabs hating Israel.

But hey, it is only a starting point. Im wondering if you can see beyond 'arabs' hating the poor Israelites. Because it is much much more.

Yes that's what I got from that documentary.

All these Arabs leader threatening Israel sovereign and how many leaders express for Israel to be wiped out.

I say you have to be an imbecile to come with such posture after the Jews suffer what they suffer in Nazi Germany.

No one wanted to take Hitler serious and didn't thought he would follow on his words.

And how did he took over many nations? By using those lightening attacks.

Israel for me did the smart thing and learning from it's past. Not to just sit there while all these hostile forces gather around you and make threats.

Act fast and swift in destroying their Air Force.

It was brilliant.

Now if Israel hadn't done that of acting fast and destroying their Air Force it truly would have been David vs Goliath.

And then the fool of the Egyptian leader has the audacity to blame USA and Britain for helping.....

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 17:48, Fernando said:

Yes that's what I got from that documentary.

All these Arabs leader threatening Israel sovereign and how many leaders express for Israel to be wiped out.

I say you have to be an imbencile to come with such posture after the Jews suffer what they suffer in Nazi Germany.

No one wanted to take Hitler serious and didn't thought he was serious.

And how did he took over many nations? By using those lightening attacks.

Israel for me did the smart thing and learning from it's past. Not to just sit there while all these hostile forces gather around you and make threats.

Act fast and swift in destroying their Air Force.

It was brilliant.

Now if Israel hadn't done that, of acting fast and destroying their Air Force it truly would have been David vs Goliath.

And then the fool of the Egyptian leader has the audacity to blame USA and Britain for helping.....

Well, Israel was there since 1948, this is 1967 and since that "brilliant move" as you say it, which consisted in Israel launching surprise bombing raids against Egyptian air-fields and raiding into the Jordanian-controlled West Bank while initiating flights over Syria which ended with aerial clashes over Syrian territory, and had deployed troops into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border—all of this before the open attack of June 5, the war never ended. Don't forget the tension with the arabs originally started because Israel adopted a policy of diverting water from the Jordan River to the Negev Desert .

So your brilliant solution as you call it (which it was military, but not tactically in the long run - as General peeled, the commander in that war himself has admitted - he even became a friend of the palestinian people) - the reliance on brute force, caused instability in the region or decades and it ..... more important it gave them all the tools to put a whole people in an open air prison ( which is firmly condemned by ALL international parties btw). A lot of it resulting ultimately in the radicalization of Islam in the region.

My point is also that this leads to consequences for the Palestinians themselves - the original people of the land, but you don't seem to care about that.

I might have made a mistake in giving you those sources though. Your image of arabs is so weird, this should have been the first http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/reel_bad_arabs/

great documentary btw.

[Fernando 6,523]

  On 11/08/2014 at 17:59, Stingray said:

Well, Israel was there since 1948, this is 1967 and since that "brilliant move" as you say it, which consisted in Israel launching surprise bombing raids against Egyptian air-fields and raiding into the Jordanian-controlled West Bank while initiating flights over Syria which ended with aerial clashes over Syrian territory, and had deployed troops into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border—all of this before the open attack of June 5, the war never ended. Don't forget the tension with the arabs started because Israel adopted a policy of diverting water from the Jordan River to the Negev Desert .

So your brilliant solution as you call it (which it was military, but not tactically in the long run - as General peeled, the commander in that war himself has admitted - he even became a friend of the palestinian people) - the reliance on brute force, caused instability in the region or decades and it ..... more important it gave them all the tools to put a whole people in an open air prison ( which is firmly condemned by ALL international parties btw). A lot of it resulting ultimately in the radicalization of Islam in the region.

My point is also that this leads to consequences for the Palestinians themselves - the original people of the land, but you don't seem to care about that.

I might have made a mistake in giving you those sources though. Your image of arabs is so weird, this should have been the first http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/reel_bad_arabs/

great documentary btw.

All that is just an outcome of this.

But Israel had to defend themselves and did the right thing acting against such hostile nations that have come out and said they want them wipe of.

By the way my image of the Arabs is what the leaders keep saying. They want Israel wipe out and all that.

So I don't trust them that easily when they make such statements.

Okay now I will look at your other link and will give my thoughts afterwards.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 18:07, Fernando said:

All that is just an outcome of this.

But Israel had to defend themselves and did the right thing acting against such hostile nations that have come out and said they want them wipe of.

By the way my image of the Arabs is what the leaders keep saying. They want Israel wipe out and all that.

So I don't trust them that easily when they make such statements.

Okay now I will look at your other link and will give my thoughts afterwards.

Um sorry but that is utter bullshit, have you not read my post?

1. Tension about water - Israel did this

2. As the doc and other sources acknowledge - The war was planned long before and had every intention of killing what was left of the famous Balfour declaration: The Balfour Declaration was issued by the British Foreign Minister Lord Arthur Balfour where he announced that his government supports the idea of establishing “a Jewish national home in Palestine, while giving Palestines a land to live in themselves. They did not want this and started a WAR.

3. How? By diverting water from the Jordan River to the Negev Desert . Thus creating much tension politically. They started the war by hitting Syria before there where hostilities and attacking Egypt. all this before 5 june.

4. your statement about 'they wanted to wipe out the Israeli's', i have some sources from the generals then:

In an interview published in Le Monde on 28 February 1968, Israeli Chief of Staff Rabin said this: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on 14 May would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

On 14 April 1971, a report in the Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar contained the following statement by Mordecai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government. “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

On 4 April 1972, General Haim Bar-Lev, Rabin’s predecessor as chief of staff, was quoted in Ma’ariv as follows: “We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six Days War, and we had never thought of such a possibility.”

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

On 3 June 1972 Peled was even more explicit in an article of his own for Le Monde. He wrote: “All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, have never been considered in our calculations. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our ‘defence’ against the Egyptian threat. This force was to crush once and for all the Egyptians at the military level and their Soviet masters at the political level. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel’s existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army.”

So go figure - your entire reasoning is falsified by the Israeli generals THEMSELVES. Isn't that funky.

[Fernando 6,523]

  On 11/08/2014 at 18:19, Stingray said:

Um sorry but that is utter bullshit, have you not read my post?

1. Tension about water - Israel did this

2. As the doc and other sources acknowledge - The war was planned long before and had every intention of killing what was left of the famous Balfour declaration: The Balfour Declaration was issued by the British Foreign Minister Lord Arthur Balfour where he announced that his government supports the idea of establishing “a Jewish national home in Palestine, while giving Palestines a land to live in themselves. They did not want this and started a WAR.

3. How? By diverting water from the Jordan River to the Negev Desert . Thus creating much tension politically. They started the war by hitting Syria before there where hostilities and attacking Egypt. all this before 5 june.

4. your statement about 'they wanted to wipe out the Israeli's', i have some sources from the generals then:

In an interview published in Le Monde on 28 February 1968, Israeli Chief of Staff Rabin said this: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on 14 May would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

On 14 April 1971, a report in the Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar contained the following statement by Mordecai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government. “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

On 4 April 1972, General Haim Bar-Lev, Rabin’s predecessor as chief of staff, was quoted in Ma’ariv as follows: “We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six Days War, and we had never thought of such a possibility.”

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

On 3 June 1972 Peled was even more explicit in an article of his own for Le Monde. He wrote: “All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, have never been considered in our calculations. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our ‘defence’ against the Egyptian threat. This force was to crush once and for all the Egyptians at the military level and their Soviet masters at the political level. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel’s existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army.”

So go figure - your entire reasoning is falsified by the Israeli generals THEMSELVES. Isn't that funky.

That wasn't in the documentary.....

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 18:24, Fernando said:

That wasn't in the documentary.....

I know mate. Thats why it is a start as I said in the beginning. I do really like it that you want to see and learn all of it. Im sorry if I sounded too sharp or impatient. My bad.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The Israeli Foreign Ministry has rejected the UN Human Rights Council panel that was intended to investigate any war crimes committed in Gaza saying that the organization has long become a "council for terrorists' rights". It really would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

PS: @Stingray, I think you should start with him with the 1948 and all the events leading to it (Sykes-Picot, Balfourd...etc.). I see his point, it's hard to understand the Arab animosity towards the state of Israel without the knowing the nature of the inception of it.

[Fernando 6,523]

  On 11/08/2014 at 17:59, Stingray said:

Well, Israel was there since 1948, this is 1967 and since that "brilliant move" as you say it, which consisted in Israel launching surprise bombing raids against Egyptian air-fields and raiding into the Jordanian-controlled West Bank while initiating flights over Syria which ended with aerial clashes over Syrian territory, and had deployed troops into the demilitarized zones along the Syrian border—all of this before the open attack of June 5, the war never ended. Don't forget the tension with the arabs originally started because Israel adopted a policy of diverting water from the Jordan River to the Negev Desert .

So your brilliant solution as you call it (which it was military, but not tactically in the long run - as General peeled, the commander in that war himself has admitted - he even became a friend of the palestinian people) - the reliance on brute force, caused instability in the region or decades and it ..... more important it gave them all the tools to put a whole people in an open air prison ( which is firmly condemned by ALL international parties btw). A lot of it resulting ultimately in the radicalization of Islam in the region.

My point is also that this leads to consequences for the Palestinians themselves - the original people of the land, but you don't seem to care about that.

I might have made a mistake in giving you those sources though. Your image of arabs is so weird, this should have been the first http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/reel_bad_arabs/

great documentary btw.

Okay I saw that documentary.

It has some true points about the stereotype of Arabs, but then that's the norm in America.

Stereotype for Blacks, Hispanics, Jews and such.

Next documentary please.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 19:44, Fernando said:

Okay I saw that documentary.

It has some true points about the stereotype of Arabs, but then that's the norm in America.

Stereotype for Blacks, Hispanics, Jews and such.

http://youtu.be/q0IXsACBRco

Next documentary please.

I like your style!

Next is the academy award winning Palestinian/Israeli coöperation about the 'now' .

What is the 'fabric of life' at the territories. Remember, here Israel has actually no rights whatever! The case of Bi'lin ....

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/5-broken-cameras-2011/

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 19:42, CHOULO19 said:

PS: @Stingray, I think you should start with him with the 1948 and all the events leading to it (Sykes-Picot, Balfourd...etc.). I see his point, it's hard to understand the Arab animosity towards the state of Israel without the knowing the nature of the inception of it.

Lol you all can help me, im too stoned to do it right now tbh.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 11/08/2014 at 20:08, Stingray said:

Lol you all can help me, im too stoned to do it right now tbh.

Aren't you always?

I'm already in bed, I'll try to post a few things tomorrow.

And I remember making a long post about exactly that subject. I'll try to find it for now.

EDIT: It's a bit too simplified, but here it is:

  On 31/12/2013 at 13:45, CHOULO19 said:

...There is no logical explanation to what happened in the early 20th century in Palestine. There is no angle that makes this "fair" or "right". But it happened anyway and it cannot be undone. A solution has to be found to satisfy most of the people and it won't happen soon.

But both you and me have thrown a lot of stuff in the air here, so just to make sure you, and everyone reading this, understand how happened, let me draw you a timeline of the events:

- At the end of the 19th century, a corrupt and aging Ottoman empire ruled the region. Arabs were largely being marginalized and oppressed. The British, French, Russians and Germans (was still called Prussia at the time) had established special privileges in mount Lebanon under the banner of protecting religious minorities in an attempt to weaken the Empire from within. Muslims, Christians and even a Jewish minority lived peacefully in the economic center of the region: Palestine.

-1914: World War 1 started with the Ottoman Empire allying with Germany.

- 1915: In a continuation of their efforts to dismantle the Empire, the French and British made a secret agreement to divide the Arab lands between the two countries. The Zionists, who now had a large and growing influence on the politics in Europe got in on the negotiations. The British eager to please the Zionists who held some of the biggest positions in Europe and could genuinely affect the war added an "International Zone" to the plan which was intended to be the destination of Jewish immigrants from Europe. That was the Sykes-Picot agreement.

- 1916: After failing against the Ottoman Empire in the Balkan, the British realized that they needed the help of the Arabs. So they promised Al Sherif Hussein that the Arabs will be allowed to rule their own land, from the gulf to Syria if they in exchange aim the Allies in the war. The Arabs agreed and started the "Arab revolt" against the empire.

- 1917: The British finally decided to actually go through with a Jewish state in Palestine. After contemplating places like Seychelles and Madagascar, the British decided that having an ally state in the region is in the best future for them in the long run. Note that all this was happening at the start of the oil revolution with oil being discovered in the region. This resulted in the Balfour Declaration.

- 1918: The Arab revolt was a success and the Ottomans were defeated. Al Shariff Hussein started negotiations with all the different regions in the Arab world to create a unified government. A temporary government was created headed by Rida Al Rikabi.

- 1919: World War 1 ended. British and French soldiers landed on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean and declared Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Iraq (there was no such thing as Jordan back then), the lands they promised to the Arabs, as occupied land.

The US, who believe it or not were adored in the region and actually genuinely stood for democracy and what's right in the world at that time, sent the Kind-Crane commission to the middle east to assess the situation and stand on the people's demands. They concluded that:

"...the American people as a whole should realize that if the American government decided to support the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, they are committing the American people to the use of force in that area, since only by force can a Jewish state in Palestine be established or maintained." The report noted that there is a principle that the wishes of the local population need to be taken into account and that there is widespread anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria, and the holy nature of the land to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews must preclude solely Jewish dominion. It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

- 1920: The San Ramon conference stripped the Arabs of every right to rule their own land. The French occupied Lebanon and Syria while British occupied Palestine and Iraq after small battles. In order to shut the KSA up, the state of Jordan was created and given to King Abdullah, one of the royal family of KSA.

After that, as planned, the British started a huge Jewish immigration from Europe to Palestine and gave them protection and privileges over the locals. The British took their time assembling, funding and arming an army of the newly arrived Jewish population.

- 1948: Feeling the Jewish army was strong enough and the international political climate was suiting since the world was still busy with outcomes of World War 2, the British finally oversaw the "independence" of the State of Israel. Thousands of Palestinians killed, millions thrown out of their homes and made to be come refugees in Lebanon, Syrian and Jordan where they still till this day live as refugees in camps that aren't suited to even store cattle!

After that, naturally a lot of Arab states rose to the aid of the Palestinians since they are practically the same nation with the same history. Defeats were inevitable, betrayals happened and resistance rose and fell and then rose up again and the Palestinian cause has been the number one used and abused cause in the Arab world since.

So there's the story of how the State of Israel came to be for you. Obviously there are bound to be a few things that are not clear there because you could write a book about every single sentence; that's how vast and complicated the subject is. But feel free to ask me about anything or look it up for yourself if you want something more reliable.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 11/08/2014 at 20:15, CHOULO19 said:

Aren't you always?

No! It was three weeks ago, ive been on vacation abroad. The prejudice !