Politics & Stuff

[dUMB 189]

I'm all for resistance which the Palestinians have every right to, but not in this manner. The provocations and collective punishments from Israeli settlers and police have been concurring on a daily basis for months. From settlers running over Palestinians, burning mosques and olive trees and breaking into Palestinian houses to steal and write racist comments, to the police terrorism of land confiscation, bulldozing houses, detaining people with no charges, even little kids, and killing of protesters and of course the new illegal settlements and the attacks on the Aqsa mosque. Yesterday, for example, a Palestinian bus driver was strangled to death by Jewish settlers. Neither state, police nor settlers crimes get punished. According an Israeli NGO, 92% of Jewish hate crimes against Palestinians, never even make it to court! A response from the Palestinians has been brewing for a while and is completely justified. But this attack does not help, but on the contrary it tarnishes the image of the Palestinian resistance.

And what should Palestinians do? Make banners and go to protest? That is the thing that western world cant understand. Western-like protest just wont work there, and Israel government is obviously approving all that crimes. That is not terrorism and when Palestinians do something like this then it's terrorism. Law should be equal for everybody.

Israel cant make excuses anymore and everytime talk about antisemitism.

[DCS1984 28]

It's an impossible conundrum, the Israeli - Palestine conflict.

With Hamas refusing to ever recognize Israel's right to exist (also the majority of the Muslim world) and only ever signing (or paying lip-service to) hudna truces and Israel's over-expanded borders from 1947 with a burgeoning population, both sides can't ever back down. The difficulties that Israel has with actually getting any kind of agreement that won't simply be abrogated at the first opportune time can't be understated.

It's not surprising that some Israelis are using the growing anger against "radical" Islam to further their rightful (as has Islam) claims to the Temple mount as a place of worship, which they are currently denied. Now is when they'll be seen in the most positive light when the retaliation comes as has been seen in Jerusalem today.

It's an incredibly sad state of affairs, hopefully one day they'll find peace side by side as I saw when I was in Bethlehem this time last year.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

And what should Palestinians do? Make banners and go to protest? That is the thing that western world cant understand. Western-like protest just wont work there, and Israel government is obviously approving all that crimes. That is not terrorism and when Palestinians do something like this then it's terrorism. Law should be equal for everybody.

Israel cant make excuses anymore and everytime talk about antisemitism.

Completely agree, the resistance must be military and even 'violent' at times; cultural resistance will not suffice. But I'm arguing against the targets of this 'operation'. I am all for rockets even if they kill the occasional civilian, but their main aim is not kill civilians. Let the operations target soldiers or policemen or even extreme politicians, but I can't be happy seeing unarmed civilians murdered like that. That's not resistance, that's a hate crime.

The Israeli terrorism should not be responded to with Palestinian terrorism because that would only lead to the two sides being viewed as equals in the struggle when in reality one of the occupier and the other the occupied.

It's an impossible conundrum, the Israeli - Palestine conflict.

With Hamas refusing to ever recognize Israel's right to exist (also the majority of the Muslim world) and only ever signing (or paying lip-service to) hudna truces and Israel's over-expanded borders from 1947 with a burgeoning population, both sides can't ever back down. The difficulties that Israel has with actually getting any kind of agreement that won't simply be abrogated at the first opportune time can't be understated.

It's not surprising that some Israelis are using the growing anger against "radical" Islam to further their rightful (as has Islam) claims to the Temple mount as a place of worship, which they are currently denied. Now is when they'll be seen in the most positive light when the retaliation comes as has been seen in Jerusalem today.

It's an incredibly sad state of affairs, hopefully one day they'll find peace side by side as I saw when I was in Bethlehem this time last year.

The bottom line is neither side wants peace. I may be biased, but I can understand why the Palestinians don't, but can never condone why the Israelis don't want peace. What the Palestinians are fighting for are even less than normal human being rights of life and what the Israelis want is the expansion of their already illegal borders and the total destruction of the Palestinians. That is the crux of the struggle and has always been.

[DCS1984 28]

Completely agree, the resistance must be military and even 'violent' at times; cultural resistance will not suffice. But I'm arguing against the targets of this 'operation'. I am all for rockets even if they kill the occasional civilian, but their main aim is not kill civilians. Let the operations target soldiers or policemen or even extreme politicians, but I can't be happy seeing unarmed civilians murdered like that. That's not resistance, that's a hate crime.

The Israeli terrorism should not be responded to with Palestinian terrorism because that would only lead to the two sides being viewed as equals in the struggle when in reality one of the occupier and the other the occupied.

The bottom line is neither side wants peace. I may be biased, but I can understand why the Palestinians don't, but can never condone why the Israelis don't want peace. What the Palestinians are fighting for are even less than normal human being rights of life and what the Israelis want is the expansion of their already illegal borders and the total destruction of the Palestinians. That is the crux of the struggle and has always been.

I have to thank you for your work in getting my book to the attention of the mods here but what you are advocating is murder.

Someone who fires a rocket does not have the right to judge the lives he or she will take. With Hamas' rockets, there is no accurate targeting system, they can land without precision and often land on Palestinian men, women and children. The person who fires that rocket has never met them when he or she injures them or kills them whether they are Palestinian/Israeli or from what ever country/faith/race.

When you have people who will gladly love death more than they love life then you have to wonder what has put them into this mindset. Do they rationalize what they take, someone's brother/sister/mother/father? Or are they just the sons of apes (7.166, 2.65, 5.60) or the successors to the Philistines who have no rights?

I personally believe both sides want peace but only on their terms, Israel does recognize the Palestinian state but the Palestinian state does not. You only have to look at the pre-amble to the Hamas Charter to understand why.

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

I don't know what will ever happen in this conflict, it's crazy to think that I was standing only yards away from where the murders took place this time last year.

One day I hope they find peace. Soon.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I have to thank you for your work in getting my book to the attention of the mods here but what you are advocating is murder.

Someone who fires a rocket does not have the right to judge the lives he or she will take. With Hamas' rockets, there is no accurate targeting system, they can land without precision and often land on Palestinian men, women and children. The person who fires that rocket has never met them when he or she injures them or kills them whether they are Palestinian/Israeli or from what ever country/faith/race.

When you have people who will gladly love death more than they love life then you have to wonder what has put them into this mindset. Do they rationalize what they take, someone's brother/sister/mother/father? Or are they just the sons of apes (7.166, 2.65, 5.60) or the successors to the Philistines who have no rights?

I personally believe both sides want peace but only on their terms, Israel does recognize the Palestinian state but the Palestinian state does not. You only have to look at the pre-amble to the Hamas Charter to understand why.

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

I don't know what will ever happen in this conflict, it's crazy to think that I was standing only yards away from where the murders took place this time last year.

One day I hope they find peace. Soon.

The Palestinians want the Jews dead, so does majority of the Arab world. They believe it's their religious destiny to kill the Jews.

[DCS1984 28]

The Palestinians want the Jews dead, so does majority of the Arab world. They believe it's their religious destiny to kill the Jews.

Sadly some Islam eschatology does point to this fact with advent of the Mahdi (Messiah) though this is different in the branches of Islam. I.e Shia's have very different view on how the world will end.

“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

It is this kind of hadith (sayings of Muhammad) from Sahih Muslim (with Boukari, the most trustworthy hadiths), (Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashrat as-Sa'ah, Book 41, 6985) that causes the responses we see in Jerusalem recently

When I mean when on their own terms, I mean when the rule of Islam or at least the Palestinian state rules over the whole of Israel and Sharia/Jizya is enforced.

Do I believe all of the Palestinians on the ground want this, I don't, each person is an individual and hopefully thinks and acts on their own but the people they put in office in Hamas do as seen in their charter.

[dUMB 189]

I have to thank you for your work in getting my book to the attention of the mods here but what you are advocating is murder.

Someone who fires a rocket does not have the right to judge the lives he or she will take. With Hamas' rockets, there is no accurate targeting system, they can land without precision and often land on Palestinian men, women and children. The person who fires that rocket has never met them when he or she injures them or kills them whether they are Palestinian/Israeli or from what ever country/faith/race.

When you have people who will gladly love death more than they love life then you have to wonder what has put them into this mindset. Do they rationalize what they take, someone's brother/sister/mother/father? Or are they just the sons of apes (7.166, 2.65, 5.60) or the successors to the Philistines who have no rights?

I personally believe both sides want peace but only on their terms, Israel does recognize the Palestinian state but the Palestinian state does not. You only have to look at the pre-amble to the Hamas Charter to understand why.

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

I don't know what will ever happen in this conflict, it's crazy to think that I was standing only yards away from where the murders took place this time last year.

One day I hope they find peace. Soon.

When someone takes your land, and keeps you like a prisoner in your own country, that can make you do some desperate things. When no one listens, and when no one judges their crimes against your own people, I can only imagine how much anger accumulates and what they're capable of doing then.

[dUMB 189]

The Palestinians want the Jews dead, so does majority of the Arab world. They believe it's their religious destiny to kill the Jews.

Hello to brainwashed America

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Hello to brainwashed America

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/10937302_clap_gif.gif

As DCS1984 pointed out, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam in the Sahih Hadith, Bukhari, called for genocide against the Jews in order to bring about the end times. As you know, Muslims do take the words of the prophet very seriously.

The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

There are tons of anti-semitic statements in the Islamic religious scriptures from both Allah/Muhammad, but that one surely takes the piss. Statements like this in the Hadith explain the rabid Jew-hatred we see in the Muslim world and from Islamic religious clerics.

As a human being, I find this to be incredibly evil and as a Christian I find it to be quite frankly, with all due respect, Satanic. It also makes of mockery of Islam calling itself an "Abramic faith" and Muslims claiming to worship the "same God" as Jews and Christians.

[DCS1984 28]

When someone takes your land, and keeps you like a prisoner in your own country, that can make you do some desperate things. When no one listens, and when no one judges their crimes against your own people, I can only imagine how much anger accumulates and what they're capable of doing then.

Don't forget the 1,000,000 Jews that lived in the Arab and Magreb countries in 1948 that had to go to Israel. 250,000 from Morocco, 140,000 in Iraq, 80,000 in Egypt, 140,000 and 80,000 in Yemen under threat of death from their former friends and countrymen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

What would have happened in 1948 if the overwhelming Arab forces had defeated the burgeoning Israeli state? Would they have formed a just/joint state based on democratic principles? Do you really believe that? Or as most would believed something much worse would have happened....

The confiscation of Palestinian land that was centuries old is unjustifiable (after 1948) but there are ways to respond and build a peace process. Israel has recognized the Palestinian state's right to exist but it hasn't been replicated by the Hamas government in Palestine. Until that happens and they can actually talk and work through diplomatically this how can they ever come to an agreement?

The Palestinians and Israeli's are individual people from a variety of faiths/beliefs/individual morals etc. If all we have to work with our opponents are rockets and machetes then what's the point in it all?

[DCS1984 28]

As DCS1984 pointed out, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam in the Sahih Hadith, Bukhari, called for genocide against the Jews in order to bring about the end times. As you know, Muslims do take the words of the prophet very seriously.

The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

There are tons of anti-semitic statements in the Islamic religious scriptures from both Allah/Muhammad, but that one surely takes the piss. Statements like this in the Hadith explain the rabid Jew-hatred we see in the Muslim world and from Islamic religious clerics.

As a human being, I find this to be incredibly evil and as a Christian I find it to be quite frankly, with all due respect, Satanic. It also makes of mockery of Islam calling itself an "Abramic faith" and Muslims claiming to worship the "same God" as Jews and Christians.

Just to let you know this Hadith is from Sahil Muslim not Bukhari. Wouldn't want to be accused of misquoting anyone

Just to let anyone reading this I'm not a Christian, Jew or unsurprisingly a Muslim but as I've got older I've made decision to research these faiths and to see if there is truth behind them.

So far in my research Islam is by far the weakest in a (especially) historical and scriptural context. Watching apologetic discussions between the three faiths has been really revealing to me to see the weakness of their arguements in regarding the Torah and Injeel (gospel) in the context of history and theology.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Just to let you know this Hadith is from Sahil Muslim not Bukhari. Wouldn't want to be accused of misquoting anyone

It's actually in Sahih Muslim as well.

[DCS1984 28]

It's actually in Sahih Muslim as well.

That's what I wrote I don't think it is in Boukari.

Never thought i'd be discussing Boukari and Muslim in a Chelsea forum lol!

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

That's what I wrote I don't think it is in Boukari.

Never thought i'd be discussing Boukari and Muslim in a Chelsea forum lol!

Silly me. It's in BOTH Bukhari and Muslim, the order to exterminate all Jews.

[xPetrCechx 13,573]

Just Wanna some quiet life...

[dUMB 189]

As DCS1984 pointed out, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam in the Sahih Hadith, Bukhari, called for genocide against the Jews in order to bring about the end times. As you know, Muslims do take the words of the prophet very seriously.

The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

There are tons of anti-semitic statements in the Islamic religious scriptures from both Allah/Muhammad, but that one surely takes the piss. Statements like this in the Hadith explain the rabid Jew-hatred we see in the Muslim world and from Islamic religious clerics.

As a human being, I find this to be incredibly evil and as a Christian I find it to be quite frankly, with all due respect, Satanic. It also makes of mockery of Islam calling itself an "Abramic faith" and Muslims claiming to worship the "same God" as Jews and Christians.

I am Christian, and I do not justify Muslim nor Jew terroristic acts. I truly believe that only extreme Muslims take those words for granted and I believe that they want and can live in peace together. But, I want to clarify one thing: the genocide of the Jews in the past does not justify the genocide of Palestinians now. No matter what is written in some book.

[dUMB 189]

Don't forget the 1,000,000 Jews that lived in the Arab and Magreb countries in 1948 that had to go to Israel. 250,000 from Morocco, 140,000 in Iraq, 80,000 in Egypt, 140,000 and 80,000 in Yemen under threat of death from their former friends and countrymen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

What would have happened in 1948 if the overwhelming Arab forces had defeated the burgeoning Israeli state? Would they have formed a just/joint state based on democratic principles? Do you really believe that? Or as most would believed something much worse would have happened....

The confiscation of Palestinian land that was centuries old is unjustifiable (after 1948) but there are ways to respond and build a peace process. Israel has recognized the Palestinian state's right to exist but it hasn't been replicated by the Hamas government in Palestine. Until that happens and they can actually talk and work through diplomatically this how can they ever come to an agreement?

The Palestinians and Israeli's are individual people from a variety of faiths/beliefs/individual morals etc. If all we have to work with our opponents are rockets and machetes then what's the point in it all?

I agree with you. Jews had to leave their homes and settle in Israel. They were victims then, but things have changed now. They must stop taking more land, and start to use law equally against hate crimes. It's the only way to calm things down so they can both be one step closer to peaceful living.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Hey guys some help pls...which online news press is most popular/reliable in Brazil and India when comes to government stuff?

[DCS1984 28]

I am Christian, and I do not justify Muslim nor Jew terroristic acts. I truly believe that only extreme Muslims take those words for granted and I believe that they want and can live in peace together. But, I want to clarify one thing: the genocide of the Jews in the past does not justify the genocide of Palestinians now. No matter what is written in some book.

I am not a Muslim but Hadith's (sayings of Muhammad) found in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, Al-Sughra/Al-Nasa'i are commonly understood to be one step below the Qu'ran as the authentic teaching of God but in this case through the divinely inspired words of Muhammad. You seem to have an interest in the middle east and possibly Islam too, so I ask you to pick up a copy of the Qu'ran and try and read it without the Hadith commentary that maybe along side it and see how much you can understand of it. Maybe you could tell us why Abu Lahib is suffering hell worse than Dante's nightmares without using Hadith....

I have a 1,600 page Ali Unal (sadly is very westernized) Qu'ran to go with my unannotated Pickthall Qu'ran and you can't escape the Hadith/Tasfir if you want to explain what is going on in the Qu'ran as it moves from place to place and moment to moment only to find them sura's later in the book.

These words that you believe are only what extreme Muslim's take for granted is unfortunately not the case. If a similar Hadith is found in both Bukhari and Muslim then it is deemed to be the highest form of remembrance of what Muhammad said through the chain of Isnad (testimony) and is called Sahih (authentic saying of Muhammad).

As for a Palestinian genocide conspired by the Israeli state, where is your proof? Are they killing them in secret or are they starving them to death?

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I am Christian, and I do not justify Muslim nor Jew terroristic acts. I truly believe that only extreme Muslims take those words for granted and I believe that they want and can live in peace together. But, I want to clarify one thing: the genocide of the Jews in the past does not justify the genocide of Palestinians now. No matter what is written in some book.

So I pointed out a Hadith that shows the founder of a major world religion calls for genocide against the Jews and that's what you come up with?

(1) There's a "genocide" but the population of the "Palestinians" in Gaza keeps on growing by the year. Some genocide. And making allusions to an actual genocide in the Holocaust is a disgusting moral equivalence. The fact you think there's an actual "genocide" just shows how delusional your views are. The fact you claim to be a Christian is even more perplexing.

(2) So even when the Hamas charter quotes "some book" and uses "some book" to justify it's hatred of Jews and desire to exterminate them.

It's impossible to play down the role of this "some book" in the Isreali/Palestine conflict, the various sectarian conflicts in the ME and the JIHAD Islamic terrorists have waged on the non-Muslim world as a whole, including on Christians such as yourself.