Gary Cahill

[Jase 43,479]

  On 28/10/2013 at 13:24, YouNameIt said:

Why are people being offended because someone believes something they say is stuipid? Its not like I called him stuipid personally.

For instance:

If you claim that Demba Ba is better than Zlatan Ibrahimovic, I would call that post stuipid.

My opinion is that it is stuipid to claim that. So, I dont take abuse at someone because they have a different opinion. Im just expressing my opinion.

I'm sure all of us when reading some posts in this forum, we would think 'Bloody hell, what a stupid post that is!' but do they all go and just say that as it is? No. There is always a proper way of doing things. Moreover, we have seen how petty fights on TC have occured as a result people starting abusing others like that, even if it's just a minor one, and this place getting turned upside down with those involved getting warned or banned.

[chelseathebest 150]

  On 28/10/2013 at 12:08, didierforever said:

with GC-JT, the opposition dont get the charity that luiz gives. also with cahill-JT we have so far conceded 2 goals in 6 matches (hull, villa, united, fulham, schalke and city) and both the goals have been phenomenol strikes by the striker. the benteke shot was absolutely brilliant and aguero's too even though cech should have stopped the latter one. this makes us more difficult to play against cos teams need a moment of magic to score rather than getting goals in free-fund.

Couldn't agree more!

[Tomo 21,741]

  On 28/10/2013 at 13:23, didierforever said:

u really dont understand anything do you.

let me break it down for you.

1. jose knows just like i know and just like every1 on here knows, luiz is a better defender than cahill.

2. jose gave luiz his chance to prove that luiz can adjust to jose's style but luiz blew it with his mistakes against everton, norwich and cardiff.

3. now jose did the right thing by dropping DL out of the team and starting GC over him for one of the most important match we will play this season.

this does not BLOW a hole in my argument but just confirms what i have been saying all this time. (let me say that again in a compressed one line otherwise i have no idea what u might interpret it to: luiz's mistakes cost us so we should play GC-JT).

get it!!!??? or do u need to be spoon-fed further?

You can't blame the Norwich goal solely on him, that was a collective error by Ivanovic for not closing the cross down and both Terry and Luiz for getting beaten in the air.

Plus Luiz isn't the first and won't be the last defender to get beaten in the air by Pilkington, also you bring the stats up this season about the partnership's but since Luiz has arrived we concede less per game than we do without him, yet because so far this season the stats aren't in his favour right now, it proves that he should be out of the team?

[robsblubot 3,595]

Gary makes at least as many mistakes as Luiz does; they are just different kind of mistakes, which some here are more "used to." They lead to goals all the same though.

The difference, which people here seem to choose to ignore, is that the whole team suffers when a technically inferior player like Cahill plays. He provides no technical edge against the opposition. The defense line plays very deep, too deep for a home game! City had most of possession and people immediately complained about the pivot... Pivot! Pivot! reminds me of an old Friend's episode.

Football is a very dynamic game where the lines are intertwined. When your defenders don't have the ability to join and perform tasks in the midfield, that affects how the team plays. If your CB sits deep, the entire defense line will play deep, which will invariably affect your team's ability to keep possession and allow your opponent to push high up the pitch (like City did). You can start any CM in the world in the "pivot" and if they don't get help from all other lines they will fail.

Finally, the opinions here usually go strongly against the the "opinions" of the transfer market. So, either you know something all the professional scouts, coaches, and managers don't, or you are just plain wrong; personally I'd go with the latter. David Luiz is sought after by the top clubs in the world, while Cahill is essentially anonymous in the footballing world.

If you want to play a defender of Cahill's characteristics, if you truly believe that is the better option, then by all means you should be looking to unload David ASAP (he won't sit on the bench quietly with so much interest in him) and to get another player similar to Cahill, but technically better than him. I've followed Terry's career and at no point during his long career at Chelsea he's been as easily beaten by opponents as Cahill is. Terry is just a much superior player in every aspect of the game; a far better footballer and honestly, we shouldn't settle for anything less.

I like Gary, I really do, but as a rotation player, never a starter. However, ever since he's become a regular for the national team, there is a push for him to become a regular at Chelsea too - from pundits and (mostly England) supporters alike. Here's something people may realize but not say: Chelsea are a top team, but England aren't. So, what is good enough for England isn't necessarily good enough for Chelsea. England have about 4-5 world class players, which is way short of becoming WC contenders - reckon this is fodder for another thread though.

[didierforever 7,349]

  On 28/10/2013 at 16:24, Tomo said:

You can't blame the Norwich goal solely on him, that was a collective error by Ivanovic for not closing the cross down and both Terry and Luiz for getting beaten in the air.

Plus Luiz isn't the first and won't be the last defender to get beaten in the air by Pilkington, also you bring the stats up this season about the partnership's but since Luiz has arrived we concede less per game than we do without him, yet because so far this season the stats aren't in his favour right now, it proves that he should be out of the team?

i dint blame the norwich goal solely on DL. i feel JT was more at mistake than both iva and DL to let van wolf win the header.

GC came in 2011-12 while DL came in 2010-11, so what point u were trying to make, i really dint get it. anyways we are playing under a new manager who is playing in a totally different system than what we played under AVB, RDM and RAFA. so u cant mistake me for throwing stats here just for this season. and its not just about the stats but the general play we have set up. i mean norwich and cardiff were more threatening than fulham and schalke. maybe its just co-incidence but we are playing better with JT-GC than with JT-DL.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

For me Cahill makes defensive mistakes, while Luiz has brain farts. As far as ability goes, Luiz is def the better defender imo. When he's on, forget Cahill, I can't list 5 defenders better than Luiz in the world.

Some of the games he's had for Brazil had me in awe. He dominated at times, attackers were scared to face him.

Last year, he was easily our best defender and by a wide margin. But the fact is he's made as many if not more mistakes this season than he made all of last season hence why people are having this discussion. The only reason Cahill is getting games is because Luiz is off-form.

Mourinho doesn't like his defenders making mistakes but he also needs a ball-playing defender in his team. He will work with Luiz and Luiz has to do the same, because I know Mourinho wants to trust him as his first choice CB.

[Phil Driver 503]

Cahill is a far superior defender to Luiz ,why? because Luiz is unpredictable ,defending is all about percentages and teamwork with the back 5 all on the same wavelength,Luiz could do anything at any time and he needs to learn the percentages ,very similar to Frank Lebouef when he first came,if Luiz learns and he will have to, he can become a great .

The fact is Jose could not trust him to play against City and that is why Cahill played and he did very well as he has done all season,at the moment our best centre back partnership is JT and Cahill .

[Atlas Lion 1,223]

  On 28/10/2013 at 17:45, Phil Driver said:

Cahill is a far superior defender to Luiz ,why? because Luiz is unpredictable ,defending is all about percentages and teamwork with the back 5 all on the same wavelength,Luiz could do anything at any time and he needs to learn the percentages ,very similar to Frank Lebouef when he first came,if Luiz learns and he will have to, he can become a great .

The fact is Jose could not trust him to play against City and that is why Cahill played and he did very well as he has done all season,at the moment our best centre back partnership is JT and Cahill .

I'm sorry but Luiz is one of the best CB's in the league and easily top 5 in the world, whereas Cahill is nothing more than a reliable squad player.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Mistakes is not really an argument for one over the other as both are too error prone for the liking of any manager. Take this season for example, Luiz made major mistakes that led to goals against Everton and Cardiff and Cahill made major mistakes in Aguero's goal yesterday and both of Basel's goals.

But honestly, that shouldn't even get into the debate. What Garry Cahill is capable of and David Luiz is capable of as defenders and as footballers as whole, cannot even be compared. Luiz is just superior in every single aspect, except maybe aerial duels. His reading of the game is one of the best in the world, he's quicker, his decision making is a lot better, he can defend 1v1..he's simply in the top 7-8 CBs (for me in the top 5 even) in the world.

I like Garry a lot. He always comes across as a genuinely good bloke who tries to give 100% and is always passionate about his football and is genuinely happy about playing at a club like ours. But he's just a squad player for a club like Chelsea. Decent back up for rotation and injuries, but, and I hate to sound cynical but it's probably true, Wenger got it about right when he bid 6m for a decent mid-table team CB who is no where near world-class.

  On 28/10/2013 at 17:45, Phil Driver said:

Cahill is a far superior defender to Luiz ,why? because Luiz is unpredictable ,defending is all about percentages and teamwork with the back 5 all on the same wavelength,Luiz could do anything at any time and he needs to learn the percentages ,very similar to Frank Lebouef when he first came,if Luiz learns and he will have to, he can become a great .

The fact is Jose could not trust him to play against City and that is why Cahill played and he did very well as he has done all season,at the moment our best centre back partnership is JT and Cahill .

That's the whole point, though. That is the issue with most of the English media and a lot of fans with Luiz. They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively. But for Luiz, defending has a completely different meaning. It's not that he's doing those things poorly, it's that he's not trying to do them because to him, and a lot of Spanish and South American CBs, there can be another philosophy to defending. Guys like Luiz, Ramos, Puyol, Hummels...etc they don't just sit back and stay tight, they want to charge forward and intercept and clear; they try to snuff out danger before it becomes danger; they go forward and play 1v1 and quite often win the ball. And that's still a foreign concept in the PL because managers have just started to accept such change in the mentality and philosophy of defending in the last couple of seasons with Luiz here, Vertongen in Tottenham. Carvalho was somewhat similar and he was superb for us because Jose understood how he played, while Pique, who is one of the highest rated CBs in the world now couldn't get into Ferguson's team.

But I think that change will eventually be forced in the PL simply because that what football is headed for. The highest rated CBs in the world mostly play like DL, not JT. I think that the PL can and will incorporate those type of defenders but the road won't be easy for the first few ones like Luiz.

PS: Just to be clear, I'm not in any way taking all the blame off Luiz who has made his share of school-boy mistakes that have not at all helped his cause nor am I saying that all his critics are wrong or that the cultural difference about the role of the CB is the only reason he's been criticized.

[Bosnian Blue 2,471]

At the moment, Cahill is our second best CB. Luiz is on the bench for a reason. Once he matures he'll play. If he doesn't he won't, no matter how good he 'might become'.

And Cahill is a fantastic player, I'm very happy he is ours. His partnership with JT has been very good so far, lets hope they continue.

People here slagged off Lamps, Didier, Bane who are a lot bigger than Gary is for this football club, so it doesn't surprise me one bit to see the anti-Cahill group aswell.

[Jase 43,479]

I have to say, this is the first time Cahill's thread has exploded with posts and discussion....

[The_Flash 1,144]

Gary is good, really strong but I still prefer Luiz

[BlueLion. 21,491]

  On 28/10/2013 at 22:51, BluesMaster said:

I have to say, this is the first time Cahill's thread has exploded with posts and discussion....

That's because he is quietly effective. These threads are only ever active when we're slagging someone off. Today TalkChelsea is slagging off a man having a very good season.

[Phil Driver 503]

  On 28/10/2013 at 22:40, CHOULO19 said:

Mistakes is not really an argument for one over the other as both are too error prone for the liking of any manager. Take this season for example, Luiz made major mistakes that led to goals against Everton and Cardiff and Cahill made major mistakes in Aguero's goal yesterday and both of Basel's goals.

But honestly, that shouldn't even get into the debate. What Garry Cahill is capable of and David Luiz is capable of as defenders and as footballers as whole, cannot even be compared. Luiz is just superior in every single aspect, except maybe aerial duels. His reading of the game is one of the best in the world, he's quicker, his decision making is a lot better, he can defend 1v1..he's simply in the top 7-8 CBs (for me in the top 5 even) in the world.

I like Garry a lot. He always comes across as a genuinely good bloke who tries to give 100% and is always passionate about his football and is genuinely happy about playing at a club like ours. But he's just a squad player for a club like Chelsea. Decent back up for rotation and injuries, but, and I hate to sound cynical but it's probably true, Wenger got it about right when he bid 6m for a decent mid-table team CB who is no where near world-class.

That's the whole point, though. That is the issue with most of the English media and a lot of fans with Luiz. They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively. But for Luiz, defending has a completely different meaning. It's not that he's doing those things poorly, it's that he's not trying to do them because to him, and a lot of Spanish and South American CBs, there can be another philosophy to defending. Guys like Luiz, Ramos, Puyol, Hummels...etc they don't just sit back and stay tight, they want to charge forward and intercept and clear; they try to snuff out danger before it becomes danger; they go forward and play 1v1 and quite often win the ball. And that's still a foreign concept in the PL because managers have just started to accept such change in the mentality and philosophy of defending in the last couple of seasons with Luiz here, Vertongen in Tottenham. Carvalho was somewhat similar and he was superb for us because Jose understood how he played, while Pique, who is one of the highest rated CBs in the world now couldn't get into Ferguson's team.

But I think that change will eventually be forced in the PL simply because that what football is headed for. The highest rated CBs in the world mostly play like DL, not JT. I think that the PL can and will incorporate those type of defenders but the road won't be easy for the first few ones like Luiz.

PS: Just to be clear, I'm not in any way taking all the blame off Luiz who has made his share of school-boy mistakes that have not at all helped his cause nor am I saying that all his critics are wrong or that the cultural difference about the role of the CB is the only reason he's been criticized.

[Phil Driver 503]

It does not mata whether you come from Brazil or Russia or Australia or the moon every back four has to do this and that includes one with Luiz in it, They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively.

[Reddish-Blue 2,428]

Luiz just needs to take some of the risks out of his game.

He's got all the skills you want in a ball playing defender, just needs to keep a coolhead in certain situations...

Cahill is a good squad player. The world cup should be a good experience for him next year...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 29/10/2013 at 08:46, Phil Driver said:

It does not mata whether you come from Brazil or Russia or Australia or the moon every back four has to do this and that includes one with Luiz in it, They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively.

What about Carvalho? Don't you remember how he used to go flying forward and intercept balls and then he'd continue his run and be next to the striker? Alex did it sometimes as well but he was too slow to do it often. Have you seen Ramos play at CB? He's almost NEVER on the same line as the other 3 defenders. Puyol to a lesser extent, Hummels all the time...etc the list is endless.

I know that's how you believe a defender should defend, I'll tell you something: that's probably how I'd prefer my CB to defend as well; I'd take a Nesta or a JT over any kind of defender any day. But what I am saying is that there is other ways to defend, that's not the only way. David Luiz's "philosophy" about defending works and has worked recently for teams like Spain and Brazil and clubs like Barca and Madrid that have been winning all the trophies.

[The only place to be 11,313]

  On 29/10/2013 at 08:46, Phil Driver said:

It does not mata whether you come from Brazil or Russia or Australia or the moon every back four has to do this and that includes one with Luiz in it, They expect a back four that is always tight and stays together on the same line and defend against players collectively.

I have no problem with him jumping out of defence and intercepting the ball...just don't fall asleep in games that you don't think are worth your complete concentration. To me that type of thing is dishonest and an insult to every fan who has made the commitment in terms of time and money to turn up and support the club.

On the other hand that type of high-risk defending requires supreme football intelligence in terms of reading the game - maybe he should just stick to more 'basic' defending.