Messi: not just great, but the best?

[capriccioso 2,545]

Who cares if he did drugs or not, he's still a massive cheat, far bigger than Ronaldo with his 100s of dives will ever be:

[Santiago. 1,500]

Oh, come on. Ronaldo and Messi have completely different circumstance. It's a disease, A DISEASE. It's not like he still taking them, he needed it to get through puberty properly. Imagine having shriveled up balls and arms the size of rubber bands; it's not very nice.

Its a professional sport. Every other player achieved their professional career 'naturally'. Disease or not it was genetic engineering that was not natural.

[Spike 12,049]

Its a professional sport. Every other player achieved their professional career 'naturally'. Disease or not it was genetic engineering that was not natural.

What about Maradona? When he hit his prime he was hooked on cocaine. I know that growth hormones and cocaine are very different but the fact is that addiction would have changed his personality and approach to the game.

What about a depressed player? Can s/he take antidepressents to help their mood? Because I can sure as hell tell you that when I had chronic depression the last thing I wanted to do was chase a ball around a pitch.

[Santiago. 1,500]

What about Maradona? When he hit his prime he was hooked on cocaine. I know that growth hormones and cocaine are very different but the fact is that addiction would have changed his personality and approach to the game.

What about a depressed player? Can s/he take antidepressents to help their mood? Because I can sure as hell tell you that when I had chronic depression the last thing I wanted to do was chase a ball around a pitch.

Taking cocaine is an illegal drug and was punished for it, and anti depressants shows no relevance in taking a muscle and growth enhancement. Both irrelevant suggestions.

To enter a professional sport, imo should be done 100 percent naturally.

[Spike 12,049]

Taking cocaine is an illegal drug and was punished for it, and anti depressants shows no relevance in taking a muscle and growth enhancement. Both irrelevant suggestions.

To enter a professional sport, imo should be done 100 percent naturally.

But antidepressants would help a player with depression, no? In the same way growth hormones help a person with hormone deficiency? Antidepressants aren't what you would call exactly natural since they are a whole heap of drugs and hormones bottled up into a capsule or tablet. You seem to hold different standards for mental health and physcial health and that does not sit right with me.

ALL PLAYERS THAT TAKE MEDICATION SHOULD NOT PLAY FOOTBALL BECAUSE IT ISN'T NATURAL

Is essentially what I hear from you.

[Santiago. 1,500]

But antidepressants would help a player with depression, no? In the same way growth hormones help a person with hormone deficiency? Antidepressants aren't what you would call exactly natural since they are a whole heap of drugs and hormones bottled up into a capsule or tablet. You seem to hold different standards for mental health and physcial health and that does not sit right with me.

ALL PLAYERS THAT TAKE MEDICATION SHOULD NOT PLAY FOOTBALL BECAUSE IT ISN'T NATURAL

Is essentially what I hear from you.

How does being genetically engineered have any similarities in taking an anti depressant when talking about a professional sport? The effects of HGH does not intend for one to be considered physically natural. It is a steroid that increases muscle mass and height, genetically created. Is he a cheat, no. Should have he been a professional? No, because his form of physic is not natural.

As for anti depressants, pain killers, etc, etc, That is being taken totally out of context.

Anti depressants reduce depression. A calmer state of mind. How does that have any relevance in a drug improving your physical performance in order to function properly in order to enter a professional sport? Do anti depressants give you a boost in your physical nature, one that would increase your performance and physic? The case being is not that messi has been taking it to give him an edge, it has been taken for him to become normal, which disregards any evidence of him being a cheat. The only concern i have with that is that he should have never been a professional when deciding to take it. What if a 6ft player wanted to be 6'5 and takes growth hormones as a teenager, long before you start getting tested as part of a professional league?

When entering a professional sport, realistically, it is not okay for a tall person to take a drug to become stronger and taller, i fail to see it how it is okay for a short person to do it, even with the given circumstances he was under. He shouldn't have entered.

[Spike 12,049]

Physciality is only 50% of the game the other 50% is mentality. If a player is depressed he isn't going to 100% effort into a game therefore limiting his physicality. It improves performance because it improves mood. Do you think Crisitaino Ronaldo would have scored 50 goals this season if he was too focused on how much he hated himself? Antidepressants increase or decrease the levels neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine and doing so augment or inhibit brain activity. Isn't that the same as growth hormones? Which can increase testosterone, oesterogen and androgen levels to augment and assist physical growth. Both are drugs that have severe effects on the human body. One alters neurotransmitters and one alters the pituitary glands. If players can't have help with mental health they shouldn't be allowed to use growth hormones and vice versa. Wouldn't both diseases severely inhibit a sportsman? Since both growth hormone deficiency and depression would be a person's "natural" state, antidepressants would have to banned as well.

Besides, the difference between you're 180cm muscle man and Lionel Messi is that the latter is sick. Here are a list of symptons he could have as an adult besides being short (takenfrom the pituitary foundation):

• increase in adipose (fatty) tissue (especially around the waist)
  
• decrease in lean body mass (muscle)
  
• decrease in strength and stamina, reduction in exercise capacity
  
• decrease in bone density, increase in rate of fracture in middle age and beyond
  
• changes in blood cholesterol concentrations (increase in LDL and decrease in HDL)
  
• excessive tiredness
  
• anxiety and depression
  
• feelings of social isolation
  
• reduction in 'quality of life'
  
• increased sensitivity to cold or heat
  

And here are some symptoms with depression:

• sadness or depressed mood most of the day or almost every day
  
• loss of enjoyment in things that were once pleasurable
  
• major change in weight (gain or loss of more than 5% of weight within a month) or appetite
  
• insomnia or excessive sleep almost every day
  
• physically restless or rundown that is noticeable by others
  
• fatigue or loss of energy almost every day
  
• feelings of hopelessness or worthlessness or excessive guilt almost every day
  
• problems with concentration or making decisions almost every day
  
• recurring thoughts of death or suicide, suicide plan, or suicide attempt
  

If a child needs growth hormones to be healthy I see no problem with it. Messi needed homones to be a healthy person when he was a child. You'r 180cm muscle man just wants to take hormones to be better at something, Messi took hormones to be a healthy person. Children and sick athletes be should take growth hormones (and whatever else they need to be healthy) not 180cm muscle men. It is a question of want versus need.

It's complete bullshit that antidepressants create a 'calmer state of mind'. I've taken that antidepressants that have made me: volatile and very angry or even more depressed or evenuncontrollable and unpredictable, all the while altering my: eating habits, sleep patterns, energy levels, reaction times, at times so drowsy I would fall asleep in the middle of class, easily distracted, limiting my attention span. It's stupid to think that antidepressant don't have as much of an impact as growth hormones.

http://www.pituitary.org.uk/content/view/38/

http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/chronic-depression-dysthymia

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/types_of_antidepressants.htm

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

Messi would get injured in his first season of the English league.Ronaldo on the other hand,has succeeded in both of the La liga and EPL so I feel he's the best player

[Fernando 6,453]

To me it seems like Messi and Ronalda are both players that are not good enough when it comes to big pressure game.

For those games I rather have Drogba, Eto, or even Iniesta. Iniesta has far more balls then Messi and Ronalda put combine.

That goal that Iniesta did against Chelsea in Stamford Bridge, and the goal in the WC final. Big player for big games.

Messi and Ronalda nowhere near there.

Good enough for the press and the little kids but for me give me Drogba over them!

[Fernando 6,453]

Just realised that Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, between them, have the princely sum of one goal in 23 appearances against Chelsea. That one goal was Ronaldo's header in Moscow.

Best of all time? . Let's put that myth to rest, and always remember it was forever debunked by half an hour of Salomon Kalou at right back.

This post a lone is worth quoting again!

[capriccioso 2,545]

This has won the thread and more.

You're all looking at the man, one of the worst ball controllers in the world, almost a liability as a right back, who Messi couldn't best despite having half an hour, 95,000 fans screaming his name and shouting abuse at the Ivorian, and all the incentive in the world to bring his A-game to do so. He didn't do it though, the massive bottler.

The man who is almost universally hated as one of the worst players of the modern era keeping out the purported best of all time, is, then, the true greatest of all time

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

This whole 'Angelic' view of Messi that has been created by the media is sickening. He is an amazing player, no doubt (though overrated slightly, IMO) but he is also no more 'innocent' than CR7. Messi has done some 'Cunt-ish' things before. Most notably kicking the ball like a rocket into the Madrid fans. Classless. He dives as well, but when he does it apparently everyone looks the other way and don't want to mention it.

CR7 is arrogant/self confident. Though with good reason. Very close to being the best player on Earth and definitely one of the best Modern era players. (We will appreciate CR7 more when he's gone). Also he never let's his arrogance 'take-over'. He is confident in his own abilities without being a cunt. Yes, he was a big prima donna at Manchester United but he has gradually reigned that in over time.

Also Messi's latest big-game performances have been conveniently overlooked. When CR7 was bottling it in big games just about everyone crucified him. When Messi does it....exactly, they look the other way or dismiss it. Messi also has a greater supporting cast at Barcelona. If you switched their teams, CR7 playing for Barcelona and Messi playing for Real Madrid it would be dead-even, with CR7 perhaps shading it.

Also notice how when CR7 scored more goals than Messi last season, people ignored it and said Messi is better due to performance in big games. Now that CR7 has performed better they bring up how Messi has scored more goals......Anyone see the theme here? I hope we don't let the media's agenda against CR7 delude our view of what a magnificent player CR7 is. Be greatful that you can watch one of, if not the most 'complete' player to ever grace the game. Messi on the other hand has proven absolutely nothing on the International stage. He needs to be a star at the world cup and probably win it to be considered the best of all time.

Anyway I hope CR7 wins the Ballon D'or as he is the one who rightfully deserves it. Just like Wesley Sneijder did in 2010, but guess what? That's right Messi wins it...CR7 has been the most important man at Madrid and he was won La Liga whereas Messi has won only the Copa Del Rey. But of course, I expect the non-deserving Lionel Messi to win the Ballon D'or again. I just wish he didn't get things handed to him on a plate...

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

I personally think that he probably is the greatest player up to this point.

What he does with the ball, no body else in history has been capable to do so. And he is better than all of the legends like Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Puskas, because he is modern, he outpaces them in every way. Main reason that many tag it as unfair to compare different eras is because of the different guidelines, but the newer gets better in a certain context, messi has scored almost 70 goals the past season, he is for me the best player i've seen.

Considering many contexts anyways.

No one has the numbers, or abilities that he has.

Cr7 is a different kind of player, but id still rather have him on a modern team than di stefano or pele, because of different eras.

Like in tennis, there are guys like borg who historically speaking are mindfudging good, but when he tried to comeback in the 90's he got owned. You can only compare history, at a certain point.

Id digg more into it though, i wonder just how well di stefano or pele or maradona would adapt to the modern game. Messi still outclasses them though. I think i make my point clear, as time passes the footballer gets better considering an overall perspective. Madrid 1955-1960 would get thrashed by modern day madrid.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

This whole 'Angelic' view of Messi that has been created by the media is sickening. He is an amazing player, no doubt (though overrated slightly, IMO) but he is also no more 'innocent' than CR7. Messi has done some 'Cunt-ish' things before. Most notably kicking the ball like a rocket into the Madrid fans. Classless. He dives as well, but when he does it apparently everyone looks the other way and don't want to mention it.

CR7 is arrogant/self confident. Though with good reason. Very close to being the best player on Earth and definitely one of the best Modern era players. (We will appreciate CR7 more when he's gone). Also he never let's his arrogance 'take-over'. He is confident in his own abilities without being a cunt. Yes, he was a big prima donna at Manchester United but he has gradually reigned that in over time.

Also Messi's latest big-game performances have been conveniently overlooked. When CR7 was bottling it in big games just about everyone crucified him. When Messi does it....exactly, they look the other way or dismiss it. Messi also has a greater supporting cast at Barcelona. If you switched their teams, CR7 playing for Barcelona and Messi playing for Real Madrid it would be dead-even, with CR7 perhaps shading it.

Also notice how when CR7 scored more goals than Messi last season, people ignored it and said Messi is better due to performance in big games. Now that CR7 has performed better they bring up how Messi has scored more goals......Anyone see the theme here? I hope we don't let the media's agenda against CR7 delude our view of what a magnificent player CR7 is. Be greatful that you can watch one of, if not the most 'complete' player to ever grace the game. Messi on the other hand has proven absolutely nothing on the International stage. He needs to be a star at the world cup and probably win it to be considered the best of all time.

Anyway I hope CR7 wins the Ballon D'or as he is the one who rightfully deserves it. Just like Wesley Sneijder did in 2010, but guess what? That's right Messi wins it...CR7 has been the most important man at Madrid and he was won La Liga whereas Messi has won only the Copa Del Rey. But of course, I expect the non-deserving Lionel Messi to win the Ballon D'or again. I just wish he didn't get things handed to him on a plate...

The Sneijder case might have a case for it self, but in the end ( atleast i see it this way) a player should be given the title considering how well he helped his team in the big moments, how well his team did, how well he did overall, and etc.

I think that messi is a better player than cr7, id rather have messi in my team if ultimatley given the ultimatum, but you shouldnt judge a balon d'or like that, i wouldnt. I'd judge it by their season. Sneijder deserved it in 09/10, ronaldo deserves it for this season. Other than the thrashing that messi gave to that anti football team known as leverkusen i didnt see him impressing me in the cl. Barca didnt impress any time in the season really. Cr7 took his game and his team to high heights in la liga and the cl, and if he does well in the euro it will only get better for his case.

Messi won a copa del rey, Ronaldo won a La Liga trophy.

All the other trophies that were won by barca were out of successes from the past year.

Ronaldo deserves it in my opinion.

Although a case for messi might be made in 09/10 considering that many do tend to overate sneijder's performance in the world cup and messi was better than sneijder in la liga, and cl up to the semi final.

Messi beat sneijder fair and square to a certain degree in 09/10, its like a 55/45 for me for that season.

[Spike 12,049]

Sneijder or Milito should have won the Balon D'or in 2010. Those two pushed Inter to the limits and won the first Italian Treble in history.

[robdog 2,084]

Messi beat sneijder fair and square to a certain degree in 09/10, its like a 55/45 for me for that season.

Sneijder or Milito should have won the Balon D'or in 2010. Those two pushed Inter to the limits and won the first Italian Treble in history.

So whatever happened in South Africa in the Summer of 2010 stays there?? I don't think so. I saw Sniejder help lead his squad to the Finals. TBH the only reason why The Dutch didn't win it was due to some clutch goalkeeping by Castillas, who stopped Robben twice on 1 on 1 situations. Of course no one talks about it. Hey Madrista why didn't you mention The Great Zinedine Zidane? Don't you think he should be mentioned in that group that you typed? I do!!

[Spike 12,049]

So whatever happened in South Africa in the Summer of 2010 stays there?? I don't think so. I saw Sniejder help lead his squad to the semis. TBH the only reason why The Dutch didn't win it was due to some clutch goalkeeping by Castillas, who stopped Robben twice on 1 on 1. Of course no one talks about it. Hey Madrista why didn't mention The Great Zinedine Zidane? Don't you think he should be mentioned in that group that you typed? I do!!

I forgot the damn World Cup even happened that year. Piss boring it was. Sneijder completely owned that WC anyway.

Besides, the list that Madrid One made was about Forwards not Midfielders. Zidane, as you know was a Midfielder.

It's Casillas not Castillas and Sneijder not Sniejder. Just clearing it up.

[Zinedine Iniesco 172]

So whatever happened in South Africa in the Summer of 2010 stays there?? I don't think so. I saw Sniejder help lead his squad to the Finals. TBH the only reason why The Dutch didn't win it was due to some clutch goalkeeping by Castillas, who stopped Robben twice on 1 on 1 situations. Of course no one talks about it. Hey Madrista why didn't you mention The Great Zinedine Zidane? Don't you think he should be mentioned in that group that you typed? I do!!

Nice picture of the 3 legends right there

No need to mention zidane, my point about how messi is the best and why i think that was clear.

Zidane is an all time great, but he ranks differently, he certainly is one of the greatest midfielders ever though. Modern enough for me to say that as well.

Overall i think that all the greats in football are just that, GREATS, LEGENDS, but footballers keep getting better and better.

I'd make a bet pele wouldnt catch up to cr7 nowadays, atleast a carbon copy of pele anyways.Those players had natural ability though, in a hypothetical way i wonder how the past greats would adapt now.

Sneijder had a good part in the world cup but what i am trying to get that is that some over rate his part in it.

Messi rocked the champions league and la liga as the pichichi (or actually i think it was forlan who was la liga pichichi(., and just barely lost out on champions league trophy due to a COLLECTIVE effort from inter milan.

As i said before, there's a great case for sneijder deserving to win it, but messi is also deserving.