OneMoSalah

His progression under Frank has been frustrating at times because there are the sort of games he should be strolling and affecting. Last season he had made big steps but still feel there is more in there and you'd want to see him being decisive against inferior opposition. I don't get why Frank had left him out for a few games either, that is still lost on me. As mentioned above, he has got so much more to be more decisive but he isn't always. He is still a very good player but you'd like to see him score/create more chances which we did last season at times although I do think he should of had a cut back tonight from Dave. He is good at driving forward with the ball also but there's a tendency, regardless who has played in midfield this year, that we go from side to side and limit risk. Is this coming from the players or the manager or a mix of both because its not just been a Kovacic problem, its been a Jorginho problem, its been a Kante problem, its been a Mount problem. I get limiting risks in central areas as losing the ball there is huge but they also have to be a bit more brave and realize that they are good players who can play forward at times.

Perhaps but still, you going to say that the win percentage couldn't be more if set plays such as corners or FKs were defended better? (Yes the GK can come into that but I wouldn't say he is purely to blame for all the set pieces we've from conceded either - zonal marking big feature the last 13 or 14 months) If at times the in game management wasn't better and we weren't bombing wingbacks up the field in the 92nd minute v West Ham when its 2-2 or sitting off Southampton at 3-1 up or whatever? Or is it purely a lets say make out that individual mistakes are the only reason this Chelsea team and Frank's managerial record is at the percentage it is? To give the impression that despite the fact its low, it should be much better? Because that's what I feel your trying to do. I get the feeling people will allude to Kepa, Zouma and Jorginho etc but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this team has other issues than a few guys making mistakes individually. Look at how many times this mob had got through out midfield this game alone when it was 4231? Or is this purely on the players again? Or how predictable some of the attack was until we switched to 433 and they ran out of gas? Or again is 200m worth of players at fault? If things like this and mistakes are happening as often as they have with Frank in his spell here, that screams out to me there is much more wrong than just one or two players having bad games, it has to be. You cannot have individual mistakes for 13 or 14 months. People make mistakes but when they become clear and obvious every game or every few games, something is wrong. Yes I have said about giving him the time, I reckon 18 months is a fair point to judge him at. I think its roughly enough time for a manager to get some sort of identity and shape his squad. I get the transfer ban etc, its a bit of a shit one but still, as you've said now this is his team and they need to gel but they didn't have a good structure to go into these new players or a team with a clear identity either IMO which won't help them adapt. And some people might say that's too long, there are guys who can put their identity on a team in as little as 2 months or even sooner. Just look at Poch when he went to Southampton or Klopp at Liverpool, the first few games it was hugely evident what their ideas of football were. Even if the quality wasn't there. Still struggling to see what sort of team we are going to be. Are we a high pressing team without the ball? Are we a more reactive team without the ball? Are we an out and out attacking team? Are we a counter attacking team? Its very much all up in the air, it seems to change each week. Variation is good but not to the point where you watch a game each week unsure which style or approach is going to be used. And people complained we had no identity under Sarri when we had a much more clearer one too..... The worst players who unfortunately had some of the most key roles in that system? Why can't I? Your not going to tell me that as well that if Cahill and Luiz also didn't play fantastic that season that they wouldn't deserve praise as they were notoriously towards the bottom of everyone's list of good players at Chelsea. Or are we now at the point where we are going to just purely say that Eden and Diego won us the league alone that season? Despite the huge amount of clean sheets? Despite Kante and Matic's amount of recoveries and tackles in MF? Or not the fact that great coaching and a clear identity made a huge difference? Which is what I am alluding to with this team, if we had that, it would compensate for some of these guys deficits because we have good players, even last season. And its not Jorginho's fault, Kepa's fault, Zouma's fault we don't have a clear identity, unfortunately.

It does though. Unless you're arguing it's franks fault that kepa lost it mentally? Which would be a hilarious take... No but what I am saying is that you cannot purely say Franks win percentage is poor because he lost Eden and had Kepa. Its not as if Kepa made a mistake in the every other one of the 49% of games we haven't won under Frank. And its not as if Eden would of scored in the other 49% either. I had an opinion on Frank and Kepa, slightly similar to the whole Conte-Christensen events of a few seasons ago but it doesn't hugely blame the manager and doesn't get away from the fact that the player has had plenty of chances and not done well. But in this point, regarding the win percentage and the context you've argued there regarding losing Eden and having Kepa. Sarri had us 3rd best defensive record with Luiz-Rudiger and Kepa playing virtually every game in the PL.... so I don't think its necessarily fair to say that its purely down to the fact he had the Kepa, a transfer ban or no Eden Hazard. Conte won the PL with Moses and Alonso as pretty much key players at wing back mate, just shows the difference between what good coaching can do. Although not to say Frank hasn't done well in periods particularly after the tough start and before 2020. Ziyech goal.

He also had lost our best player since frank himself with a transfer ban and had the statistically worse keeper in the history of the prem. Context matters Tbf Sarri had this defence as the 3rd best statistically in the league with the "statistically worst keeper in the history of the prem" so in terms of that context I don't think that really matters at all.

Best way to describe us under Lampard in 2020 is 11 individuals and not a team. Simple as that. Not just this game, most games this year bar a handful.

Whys Chilwell not just crossing that after Zouma’s cross fielded it to him? 2 players (I think?) in the box and he tries a 1-2 and makes it more difficult for himself IMO plus its pulled Timo away from in and around the penalty spot. I do get the feeling we are unnecessarily over complicating things when we finally get to the middle/final thirds which doesn't help when they are just sitting in. They want us to try over complicate things, to try play through a low block when they can see the build ups slow with short passes and they can get back into position. I don’t get we dont go a bit more direct and play Giroud in some of these types of games if I am honest, these sort of awkward teams. Yes he’s limited in some ways yes but at least you can go a bit more direct and get Havertz, Hudson-Odoi and Ziyech into the game sooner if he can take it in plus with guys like Ziyech, Chilwell and Azpilicueta willing to put the ball in the box who would be better at getting to them? Or even throw him on and play Timo off him be it from the left or in a 2 man partnership. Still feels very unconvincing. Only winning due to a GK error and yes the missed penalty hurts but our play and creation of chances from open play is hugely uninspiring.

Thank fuck. But jesus christ that keeping there was horrendous. Games been so boring, wouldn’t be surprised if it finishes 1-0

Yep. Franks a smart guy but even if it was set up or not set up, I thought he would know that it was a bit of a daft comment to make. I remember Roy Keane saying he was avoiding criticism last season in the same way OGS was because he was English in the Sky Sports studio, where we had lost as many/more games than United at the time and while its not completely all true to turn around and say he's judged more due to being only Englishman managing in the top 6 of the PL is absurd. I would say it would buy him less criticism because we've all seen how people want young talented English players to do in the past and don't see how its any different with managers? I mean look at Eddie Howe as well, youngish English manager who a few seasons ago was linked with the England job before Southgate got it full time? As well as the Arsenal job and Everton jobs in the past few seasons. Despite the fact he probably escaped criticism based on how many goals Bournemouth conceded because they "always tried to play football the right way" which again I don't think was necessarily true because there was a lot of games where they sat in and counter attacked particularly the last 2 seasons they were in the PL. Where as Sean Dyche has probably done a better job in terms of the budget he's been given to work with at Burnley and people wouldnt even consider him for anything more than Burnley (did they not go through Europa League qualification one season?) Not saying he will ever be top notch or that but the young manager thing is probably similar to young players (well most places bar here), where they can get a lot of hype or a lot of leeway with regards to criticism.

I see Frank claims he is being judged differently due to being the only English coach at a top 6 club. I think he has to remember he flew under the radar from the media when we were struggling last season for some reason or another. And guys like van Gaal, Villas-Boas, Benitez got it worse than he did at other clubs or here. I think he could of made excuses last season but not so much now because theres no obvious signs of improvement. Need to start seeing better progress starting tomorrow in an attacking sense. Good opportunity to get a good few goals.

Its not just about the position for me. Its the point count. Is 9 points in 6 games a good start for Chelsea? I know that the points are a direct contribution on your position but still, if you said after 6 games we'd only have 9 points prior to the season kicking off I think people would say that's not enough. And that's regardless of who is the manager, the squad and the way the other teams are playing. In fact the way the other teams are playing, it makes it look even worse because we could have set the benchmark (although I did say its not about the position after 6 games as there's a long way to go but even under Villas-Boas, Di Matteo, Mourinho 2nd spell bar the last season, Conte, Sarri we had more points on the board after 6 games) and really put a lot of pressure on those other teams to be chasing us. I mean look at Villa, Leeds, Everton, who have all got worse squads than us and have started well. You say the unpredictable results make it open but they've had good starts and that also throws them in the mix if they maintain it for top half finishes and beyond. When you consider who we've played in the PL so far - Brighton, Liverpool, West Brom, Crystal Palace, Southampton and Man United - you could excuse dropping points v Liverpool (especially as we had 10 men) and United at their place (even then I am more inclined to say based on the WBA and Southampton games though, we should have been going there for a win because they aren't the same team they've been for years and years). The likes of West Brom and Southampton though, they were draws but they felt like losses in the manner of how those games went. Never showed up first half v WBA then never showed up second half v Southampton. That's why I think most of us would of expected a bit more us in the second half v United, especially after how the first half went, United were there for the taking I think, they really were but again they had the best chances. I get it a point at Old Trafford and a clean sheet would maybe not the end of the world but this United team aren't remotely even close to the one it was under Ferguson or even as it was under Mourinho for a while before that went to shit, so I can see why people are so frustrated. Our team isn't either obviously but if your going to tell me a squad (aware some werent in the 11 or on the bench or subbed on but the quality point is more appropriate than who was there and who wasnt) with Giroud, Havertz, Werner, Ziyech, Pulisic, Jorginho, Kante, Kovacic, Abraham, Hudson-Odoi, Mount etc in it isn't good enough to do more in that second half, it would be incredible. Frank just settled for the point, probably accounting for previous results v United and other games but still, could of done more. Remember September with Antonio Conte in his first season? A draw with Swansea, losses to Arsenal and Liverpool left us with 10 points in 6 games and people complained, or were vocal about how we shouldn't have drawn with Swansea as getting those 3 points prior to playing those two big games was paramount - although again the nature of the performance and the "defensive/counter attacking approach" was heavily criticized again. We had 1 point out of 9 points in that month after winning the first 3 games of the season in August. In reflection this season, we have only won two games, Brighton and Palace. Loss to Liverpool. Draws with Southampton, United and West Brom. The two smaller teams feel closer to a loss than a draw as well in the manner of how those games were draws. The points we have right now are directly based on results and these results are the way they are due to the team in general which as we've seen hasn't really looked solid bar the last 2 games (United still had chances so wouldn't say we were extremely solid). Yes if we go on a run from here, it would be good but I still think when we reflect on the end of the season, with how tight the whole top 4-7 positions are going to be 4 or 5 points could be a big difference.

Think he is a bit of a very languid looking player obviously not an excuse but he isn’t necessarily a busy body or a dog for instance. Still think he needs a few more games, he could have done more but the structure isn’t great and the attacking game plan isn't ideal either.

But its been like this relying on individual brillIance since the end of 2019 to now. As has been discussed in other threads. really? Wheres the goals coming from? Look at the second half. Look at v Sevilla. Its either be solid and struggle offensively or the opposite way round.

If we hadn't dropped points v WBA and Southampton, I would take this draw as a clean sheet at Old Trafford along with a point isn’t always the worst thing in the world. Now though, having dropped them points, I think today was a real chance to make a statement and we needed the 3 points. Typical we went 343. Don’t understand why. We didn’t even play 343 v Liverpool. 9 points from 6 games isn’t amazing and questions rightfully should be asked as its a poorer return than expected. Must win every game in the league up to Spurs now to get some more points on the board, then hopefully get a win v Spurs.

Yeah seen that. mental

They are there to be had. Getting beat is not an option. Draw away would normally be sound but with 8 points from 5 games a win is a must IMO.

I think for Barcelona yes, 100%. He did play CM for Liverpool briefly under Rodgers for a period but I don't think its his best position because in terms of building the game it isn't a strength of his. He has to be in the final third. Also the 4231 it gives them the chance to put someone with more legs in beside Busquets who is slowing down but his quality on the ball is still good. Then de Jong obviously, is a top player, tremendous at receiving the ball under pressure and dealing with it 9/10 times.

Been wondering why they have never played 4231 for years. Suits Messi, suits Coutinho, suits de Jong, would of suited Suarez if he stayed and played infront of Messi as a 9 also before he left. Obviously it gives Messi the chance to play on the shoulder or more liekly, drop as a false 9. He has plenty of pace around him with Pedri and Fati as well.

I think he bought himself some time after the first 6 months of last season. Before the dip. I really do. And getting the chance to buy players this summer has obviously helped him to the point where he has put his own stamp on the squad a bit but as you've said we need to see where we are at in December. I don't think 18 months is unfair and most clubs now a days probably give that as a minimum time before changing unless its something drastically bad. 8 points in 5 games isn't good enough though and a win today regardless of it being United, is a must imo.

It is a tough place to be. As many of us are/have been. You want these guys to be successful. Ex players as managers, regardless of your team or even if you have no interest in the PL you'd want to see Lampard doing well here or OGS doing well at United or in Serie A, Conte/Pirlo doing well with Juventus or Neil Lennon doing well at Celtic or whatever. Just because these guys have player legacies and you think doing bad doesn't just tarnish their managerial reputation but potentially their player legacies in a way (not directly but it probably does a wee bit) or you think it will, which is why you want them to do well because you go it would be a shame if that tainted fans opinions on him a bit. You are right though, a players career shouldn't be used to give them a bit of leeway as a manager but the romanticism to a degree, maybe sentimental side of it is a better term, especially with someone like Frank as it would be with JT or Petr or Didier or Ashley Cole, you want to lean that way more and more and give them the benefit of the doubt. But then you have to consider Villas-Boas was shot off after 9 months, Scolari after however long, Carlo sacked after finishing 2nd. Jose a year after winning a title. Conte after finishing 5th and winning a trophy. Sarri basically may as well have been after finishing 3rd and winning the Europa League. These are guys who had varied levels of success at other clubs and had good reputations also so it kind of takes you back down a bit. I think now a days in management at top clubs, 18 months minimum is the sort of time you should be giving these guys before judging them (that's 3 transfer windows realistically). I said last season that Frank had to get things sorted because he won't get too long if the teams still struggling with the basics because people expect teams to be able to defend in general be it free kicks, set pieces or from open play and be tough to play against because people would say that these are the basics in football. I mean if Burnley or someone like that who spend 150-200m less each summer window can do that with what you'd say are poorer/less innovative coaches, why can Chelsea not? How many times have we heard Roy Keane say about teams failing to do the basics? Or Jamie Carragher or Gary Neville? Not necessarily just us but other teams Even things like individuals closing the ball down a meter away from them as well as other things as a collective such as defending corners/freekicks and whatever else. I really don't think you have to be a coaching genius to make your team be hard to beat, I think you obviously get players who aren't in the same mould as the guys we had 10-15 years ago but I don't think its neccessarily something that you only need specific players for. I think if come December, things don't look good, the pressure will ramp up (although you can see there is more and more people in the media kind of asking the question how can Chelsea still be making the same mistakes they did last season).

Perhaps but I think the last 3 or 4 years he's had a lot of niggling injuries and still managed to be a regular. I get he's getting older but I still think he has plenty life in him, just seems to be the case with a lot of these South American guys at the very top level. They seem to manage to keep playing even with accumulations of these wee injuries and such, I mean Messi's no doubt had his problems the last few seasons, as has Aguero, Di Maria at times, Cavani last season etc but they don't really look like slowing down. Obviously different cases for others. Even then if he's going to play 65-70% of the games or be a rotational option you'd take him no problem because he is goals guaranteed. Teams would shit themselves if you took him on with 20-25 minutes to go because he normally just needs 1 good chance to make a huge impact. Talking City, Foden changed the game for them today. Crazy without Silva now Pep isn't starting him every week. He has to now. He has no excuses, he didn't buy a replacement.

That was purely driven by Antonio Conte, you can tell now more than ever why he wanted him here. Hes turned him into a very rounded player. None of them look consistent which is why getting a result today v United is paramount. We only have 8 points after 5 games. Wouldn't be so sure. He has been an amazing player since he was about 23. Injuries obviously may slow him down a bit but I think many people thought he wouldn't improve under Pep and again he's taken his game another level in my eyes and they are still a totally different team without him. I think he is the sort of guy who could drop back and play as a second striker/10 for a few years (like Tevez did) also because he is so potent outside the box and his linking up and ability to spot passes is vastly underrated. I know he doesn't get a lot of assists but he definitely isn't capable. Or even playing upfront in a 2 man partnership with a bigger guy like Pellegrini had him do at City. Still gutted we never got him back in whenever it was. Criminal really. If the whole JT story is true, which I doubt, its even more criminal...

Aye, thats it. I mean if it takes someone 8 years after signing to basically now say that he is good enough to be Chelsea’s 3rd choice then that sums him up and why he isn’t at the club. Dont remember hearing about Bamford in the Championship from these guys either in his last 2 seasons with Leeds. I will admit I have been critical of Mount, Tammy and Reece to various different levels last season but Mason and Tammy had the unfortunate ‘luxury’ of being overplayed through a poor patch when Frank had others he could have utilised. Which would have taken them out of the firing line. And was poor on Franks behalf If I am honest as young players do need protected/taken out if they aren’t doing well. Not to the level of where some guys are now, which is unfair and its to the point where I havent been surprised because I see Jorginho get it, Willian last season despite being one of our best players also (probably 3rd best attacking player and statistically best season in a Chelsea shirt), countleas times Cahill getting shot down and questioned as captain, Azpi also, before them Ivanovic, Mikel and others also from mainly our own lot (a big percentage on here) and then you had the whole Jorginho-Kante thing in the media with Sarri. Different as they aren't youngsters but its typical. Just don’t understand it sometimes. Its typical though, I get we all have opinions and so do pundits journalists etc but English media are really bad at shooting down their own.

All well and good and as you’ve said but those 4 photos, not one of them is Jorginho? So the others are at fault. But mainly, it seems to be why doesn’t HE play those passes? Not Kovacic, not Kante. Jorginho. There is a photo of Jorginho playing that pass OTT to Werner v Liverpool in that Twitter thread, although it isnt great, hes played it still. Makes me wonder if he was on the ball for instance in any of those photos, I could argue he would maybe make one or two more of those passes but we won’t know because it wasn’t him on it? For me, personally it is just any game, any result, could be any other talking point and there will be someone complaining that Jorginho doesn’t do this or do that, I dont think there’s one game hes played where he has had a bad game this season in the league if I am honest but he is obviously not a player people appreciate to the degree they would others. Its not a direct comment towards you because at least your giving an argument or your opinion towards it in a way where you've got actual things that make it a bit easier to see where your coming from but some people, he could play a very good game and its still a total meltdown or because he gave the ball away once or because he isn’t Usain Bolt its a disaster 🤣 I know I said that perhaps we don’t make the runs as much and okay thats photos showing otherwise in one game but again limiting it just down to one game, v Liverpool every week is hardly a good sample either. Its also not like Jorginho didn’t set Werner up with a pass OTT of a high line v Southampton. So I suppose the point is valid about their being runs to some degree but its not like we’ve missed the chance to find in 4, 5 or 6 of these runs every game. Ziyech should help as we seen in preseason v Brighton with that pass for Hudson-Odoi(?) I think for any movement but its still debatable. Comparing him or many other MF players in the PL to Cesc is always going to end badly. He has like the 2nd top assists in PL history, so obviously his creativity was unbelievable and obviously going to top Jorginho’s. Even then Cesc, still got a lot of stick here at times, even when trying to find people further forward because it wouldn't be coming off and he was apparently giving it away too much/shouldn’t be trying to force it as much... so its not as if people would be exempting him from any sort of criticism in the same way they have been overly critical of guys like Jorginho, Mason Mount, Branislav Ivanovic, Gary Cahill, Diego Costa, Mikel, the list could go on and on.

Precisely. He was out of his depth in the PL on his previous loans and more than likely below average until 2017 when he made a good progression in the Championship but aye, people will then say Mourinho wanted Falcao instead of giving him a chance to make out hes made a mistake. Please. 33 PL appearances. 7 goals. Take out his 6 goals for Leeds in 6 games. 1 goal in 27 games. Just typical though people will jump on the bandwagon and be like I told you so despite the fact, he hasn’t particularly achieved anything of exceptional level like Salah and KdB have who are the main examples. Be interesting to think what Mourinho would say about that comment 🤣 Also that thread on Twitter is ridiculous. Says he called him Chelsea’s Harry Kane. Kane didnt burst on the scene to 2013-14 on a regular basis for Spurs, we signed Bamford in 2012 and unlike Kane, Bamford didnt make an impression at PL level in various loan spells where as Kane did when he got a chance in the PL. Bamford had various loans before landing at Leeds. He was at Boro permanently prior to Leeds also. Then he bangs on about him turning down Harvard to sign for Chelsea and only Chelsea as if the boy wasn’t already playing planning on being a pro footballer having already made appearances for Nottingham Forrest as well as already having already been privately educated as well (meant to better than most in the UK get in public schools). I really hope that guy isnt an aspiring journalist or whatever because he is so full of shit its unbelievable. Maybe should just make a Twitter to send him it 🤣 seems like anything to try and paint the club in a bad light.

What was alarming for me and am a bit relieved its finally being mentioned now more regularly is people questioning or saying that Frank now has to find a solution for us leaking goals and cannot just blame individual errors because you can only excuse individual errors to a certain degree, if they keep happening as they have done here, it would indicate something deeper rooted. There was a lot of Chelsea need a keeper, Chelsea need a LB, Chelsea need a CB but now we've got all 3 who are big improvement son what we had so I think this season if that improvement cannot be clearly visible by the end of the season it will be a big big indication that its more to do with coaching that people originally would be willing to put it down to. I feel that his spell at Derby, I think which was spoken about more with positivity because he got them to the playoff final, was there when they shifted some higher earners, guys like Mount, Bogle, Tomori etc became part of the furniture for that season as well as reducing the age of their squad etc but their goal difference and the goals they conceded from set plays (he questioned his players on them in a game v Birmingham - https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-frank-lampard-said-derby-2780645 - note he says we are not the biggest team.... where have I heard that before, was it West Ham last season? and it was a bit of a recurring theme and again has been the same here) which seemed to be totally overlooked when he was linked with the job. It should of been a potential warning. I hoped somebody who's Derby team conceded 70 goals in 57 games in all competitions (1.22 per game) would manage to improve upon that with better players but I think looking back at it, a big deal here has been in game management, set plays and organisation it has been alarming. I mean we've had some bad spells here and looked poor defensively with other managers but FL's goals against record is the worst of any Chelsea manager in the Abramovich era which says a lot. I mean if Sarri had the 3rd best defence in the PL behind Liverpool and City 2 seasons ago although at times we weren't particularly too solid, it would indicate that for Frank that's still not too bad a platform to start with. Even if it needed improved upon. Its gotten worse for whatever reason - more for me coaching wise due to the structure, the organisation and the fact Frank is much more of a forward thinking manager (but so was Sarri) than the likes of a Conte or a Jose. I mean I get the quality difference would perhaps contribute a bit but even then look at Pep's first ever season as a manager with Barcelona B, 38 games, 41 goals conceded (1.08 per game). Then Zidane's record as his first ever managerial experience with Madrid's Castilla, 58 games, 57 goals conceded (0.98 per game). I think these things perhaps should of indicated a sign that these things can actually transmit over regardless of the level as its more to do with playing style or the tactical system or the coaches ideas as opposed to actual individuals making mistakes as we've probably seen with Frank so far here - although individuals have definitely contributed and these things do happen with players at some point as its impossible to play a perfect season, everyone makes a mistake. I know its maybe a bit unfair to pick them as comparisons as they've been successful in their careers but I look at them in the same mould as Lampard, a club legend who was given the job with 1 seasons of managerial experience. I don't think that's necessarily unfair. They've achieved more but I think you look at their records at Madrid and Barcelona defensively in terms of goals against and I think if Frank was given the same time as they are, his record will be a lot lot worse. I know people will say Klopp also had a dodgy defence at Liverpool when he first came in but really bar Joe Gomez who has grown into a much better CB over time (signed the year Klopp was appointed but by Rodgers prior to his sacking in whenever it was), I don't think he had the luxury of having players that were at the level Zouma, Christensen and Rudiger were (excluded Tomori as he was back from loan). Even if they are seen as average or not good enough for title winning teams they guys for me, were certainly better than the likes of Sakho, Skrtl, Toure, Caulker, Lovren and Lucas who Klopp played as CB and Liverpool only conceded 50 goals in the PL that season. Even then the next season they conceded only 42 goals in the PL (we conceded 54 last season), with pretty much a similar selection bar Matip and Klavan signing for them and Toure and Sktrl being sold. So it is interesting people say Klopp needed time because he instantly had a better defensive record than Lampard when he took over at Liverpool although I do get it, Lampard is a lot more inexperienced and maybe will need to learn that but even Pep's first season at City they didn't concede as many as we did last season. Again I know they are top level coaches, who have coached for longer but they were the instant barometer in terms of look how long they guys took to get their defences to improve or to be successful. The successful part is true yes, they needed time but the defensive improvement I don't think its as valid as some make out. That is a good stat but again, I think here more so than ever, it is pretty irrelevant stat because people expect us to be successful with or without the kids unfortunately. Yes it saves the club money, yes it looks good for us, its nice for us fans and the academy has long been overdue this sort of attention due to the guys like Mount, James, Abraham, Tomori, Gilmour, Hudson-Odoi getting a chance and being regulars but ultimately it means nothing if the club isn't' successful because that's the bar we have set in the last 20 years and that's how it will continue to be looked upon. It does give Frank a plus point but I think his spell isn't going to be remembered (whenever people reflect back on it in the future) on purely the fact he played the young guys, its going to be based on trophies won or lack of or competition for titles etc. The defensive record we have right now is probably more commonly thought of regarding Frank's spell here than the debuts he's given out from guys on the outside looking in.