CHOULO19

PS: Our youth team just beat their youth team 4-0 with goals from Feruz, Swift and Kiwomya (x2). Similar result for the senior team? :cfc:

Completely agree. In fact I was making the same exact point the other day in the Mikel thread when Kojo said that Mikel would never fit in 4-2-3-1. But I was talking about our team in particular changing from 4-2-3-1 to the 4-3-3 that Spike posted because obviously you would expect that if we were to make such change, player roles won't change and the over all offensive and defensive system won't either. It would just alter a little the jobs of the three in central midfielders. In fact you can play a 4-3-3 without inverting the triangle and having, for example: Ramires-Mikel Oscar And this will be exactly as playing a 4-2-3-1 with Oscar in the number 10 role but just under different naming.

In this case, it really is. Changing from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 only changes a little the dynamics of the middle three and affects none of the other 8 players. In fact we've already changed from 4-2-3-1 a couple of times this season in mid-game. But have it your way.

Of course I don't know. But here's why I think Mikel is not appreciated by many: Most football fans judge matches on separate incidents; meaning who scored, who played which pass, who made which tackle..etc. Overall game is very rarely appreciated and so is consistency. That's why some people label Mikel "a passenger" when he regularly is the player who touches the ball the most in our team. Mikel doesn't do anything that is outstanding in individual incidents so no one remembers what he does during games, but instead what is outstanding about him is being in the right place 9 times out of ten and getting the simple pass right 19 times out of 20. And this isn't just about Mikel. Most Chelsea fans would tell you that Luiz is excellent at playing long balls when in reality he usually gets some thing like 4 of 20 each match while JT for example attempts one or two in a match and usually gets right. If JT was to attempt as many passes as Luiz he would get much more correct and he would be labeled the Xavi of defenders but since he doesn't Luiz is seen as better long ball passer since most people just remember the successful passes and rarely the missed. Another thing is that people rarely appreciate possession. Fans want goals and clean sheets but few appreciate that you can only get both through possession. And that means that you need to play something like 20 simple passes before you actually get the chance to play a pass that would create immediate threat to the opposition. People, me included, when watching a match get excited to see a player attempt a ridiculous 50-yard through ball, but managers prefer their players to play 10-15 more simple passes to get the ball around the area and then attempt a pass that might create a chance and that's because they know that when without possession you cannot score and you are more likely to concede. That is basically Mikel's job mostly. And that is, be available to receive the ball whenever someone is under pressure so the team does not lose the ball, then keep the ball under pressure, and then play the simple pass so we can keep the ball. This job is not glamorous, but it is crucial to both scoring and defending. And even if Mikel is not there, someone else has to do it. But so it happens that Mikel does it the best in our team. A lot is made of "Football Entertainment" and everyone wants to see an 'exciting' match, but, for all the advertisement, football is not WWE and it's not even NBA. Teams and managers eventually want to win more than they want to entertain fans. So players who do a tactically important job that most people over-look will always be underrated by fans. And before you mention Makalele, because I know that all this is about him, Claude, for starters, was the best at what he does. He also played in a time where defensive midfielder tackled and went to ground much more, so he had more glamour about his game. And finally Claude was a huge name when he came to Chelsea. He was European and World champion. So naturally he got a lot more attention and support from the fans.

True. 4-3-3 is just a 4-2-3-1 with an inverted triangle in the middle.

Why didn't anyone at Madrid appreciate Makalele till after he left?

No, of course you can't expect Mikel to be as good. Makalele was the best so of course Mikel is not as good. But that does not mean that Mikel is not a good player. And I disagree that JOM is one-dimensional. He does this specific role for us because that is what is asked of him, but he plays a different role for Nigeria.He can go forward and assist if he wants to, but that is not asked of him here because there are other players who do it better than him.

Apart from the scum doing well, I don't see why you would be upset that Moses is doing well. I was very happy for him and hopefully he can continue doing well and he would have a chance to be back here. I still haven't given up hope for him. Yeah, but Victor, unlike the likes of Oscar, Mata, Hazard and Willian, is content to playing a squad player role and we might be needing that more than a starter material player because we're already over-loaded with those.

Maka was the best at what he does. The holding midfielder role was made for him. Of course Mikel can't even compare! The discussion was never between Mikel and Maka, obviously since there isn't anyone as good as Maka was.

I can take the disagreeing part, but not the hug!

Haha I have to say, you're rocking it, though

Rooney missed 11 matches from 38 last season for united including two games against liverpool. Drogba missed a whole lot of games in those three seasons because there were two AFCON's in there and that's not counting his injuries. Winning or losing cannot be attributed to one player and it does not necessarily mean the team played better. We were terrible against Villa but still won while we were much better against Everton but lost. But then you make the conclusion from that stat that the team played better without Mikel even though he was MOTM! Just for the record, Mikel does not only play short passes, last season, he had the longest average pass length between anyone who played in the pivot (joint highest with Lampard IIRC). But short passes are not easy. If they are then why do top players even like Lampard miss some in every game. One or two short passes are easy, but getting 55 out of 60 in a game correct is not. That consistency is where the quality is. Most top teams play with a holding midfielder. United have carrick who plays the exact same game of Mikel. Tottenham currently have Paulinho who is no where near as good as Mikel. Arsenal have Arteta who is good on the ball but can't defend and occupy spaces like Mikel. City play with three in midfield so it's different, but the used to have Barry for the job and now he's doing it at Everton. Even Barcelona would not be half as effective as they are now without the best holding midfielder currently in the world that is Busquets.

Well, if you read last page, you would have seen that we had a 0% loss without Drogba for about three seasons, and that was when he was at his peak. United had a better win percentage without Rooney last season and Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi a couple of seasons ago. So the win/loss percentage with and without a player, which you said is the only one that mattered would have suggested that those players are causing their teams to lose when in fact they are the key players. How can you deny that it is due to quality when he plays the most passes (and the most forward passes among our midfielders) at the highest accuracy in the whole team? And how can pass completion be useless? How do you score if you can't pass and how do you not concede if you keep giving the ball away with missed passes? You might not like this style of football, but our system requires a holding midfielder and we have been playing with a holding midfielder who sits deep and makes the easy passes whether it be Ramires or Mikel.

I used an individual stat of Mikel's to back up a point about Mikel. You have every right to point out what you think is the logical gap in my argument. While you have been (over, and over again for the past 5 pages or so) trying to make conclusions about Mikel based on a team stat. That is an incredibly flawed logic because there are tons of other variables involved as has been proved above with examples. Really? How do those stats even relate to the player himself? And so you think we should have benched Drogba from 2008 to 2011? Should Rooney be a bench-warmer for united? And Barcelona should have gotten rid of Messi a couple of seasons ago?

Bump.

How did you know she looked exactly like that?! No seriously, she looks nothing like that but is incredibly smart and is an artist.

Hahaha We can unite in our thoughts without physically being in the same place! I met a girl over the summer who I liked, but she left the country to study abroad...just my luck

That is a very good point that has been over-looked. It was a beautifully worked goal by Everton. Sorry I disagree there. Once the ball is moved to Osman, the immediate danger is no longer Naismith for terry, but the guy at the near post (can't make out who that is). If you are two defenders marking three attackers on a cross, you always leave the one on the far post open because, theoretically, he should be the hardest one to find with the cross and the ball would have to travel the most distance to get to him which would give you the best chance to have time to recover if the cross is aimed at him. I don't think either Terry or Iva can be blamed, because the damage was already done when they were left 2 on 3.

So that's a "No" since Josh and Chalobah were not specified on the List A.

Can we even add them to the squad? I know we can in the PL because they are U21, but can we do that in the CL as well?

Right, I remember that. It was brought up by commentators every time Drogba was injured or in the AFCONs. EDIT: Here's another one. Last season in the PL united had an 82% win percentage without Rooney but only 70% with him.

I remember a couple of seasons ago, throughout an entire season, Barcelona had a 100% win record without Messi which was obviously less with him in the team. So by this logic he should have been dropped. There are way too many variables involved to try to make conclusions about an individual player based on team winning stats. There are 21 other players on the field, plus manager tactics, plus the referee, not to mention the general luck or randomness off football. All those affect the final result other than the player in question. You need only to look at recent examples to see how misleading this stat can be. For example in our last match against Everton we lost despite dominating the game and Mikel being our MOTM while against Villa we won despite being dominated by Villa and Lampard, Mikel's direct replacement, was a passenger throughout the match.

Are you wearing a leopard?

I soooo want a bigger one for my desktop background!