Blue Armour

Yes but do those stats tell you in what situations he performs those dribbles? I believe that most of the time he performs those when he comes under pressure (eg that swivel move he does with the ball) when one of the opposition attackers decide to press.

Very good post, and sums up my stance regarding Mikel. Mikel has a lot of attributes that should be appreciated, but he has had his shortcomings and as he features more often in the starting eleven its becoming more apparent. The fact remains that from the squad he is the best option for the role he plays, but that role is crucial and the team does suffer from it in certain situations.

I just have one question Seb..You say that the forward players are sometimes not in good positions to receive the ball so Mikel can't make the pass... I agree with that, but why does he have to remain static? If he actually moved with the ball to draw some of the opposition away from their marked targets, his targets could become free for the pass...

Do you even bother to read my post, or do you find it so tough to comprehend simple statements? If I wanted to hide behind that picture, I wouldn't have bothered telling you from which point in the match that was from. The only reason I showed that picture was to show that there are instances when Mikel forces an attacker to drop deep JUST Like Hazard positioned himself in that one, when he could have opted for a better pass. .I like you illustrations and generally agree with a lot of your posts, but the condescending nature of your replies is getting annoying.

Lol...ok

Well he's helping Vitesse move to 2nd in the Dutch league...

Its not the best way to compare two forwards, but over the past two seasons, Bony's goal stats look better than Liolo's. I mean isn't that our priority? Someone from the bench who can find the net?

Just to add a bit of depth? Probably someone like Wilfried Bony...

Mikel maybe slow and ponderous on the ball, but I don't think Romeu's passing is in any way better than his. His workrate though, is far better than Mikel's.

Tbh for west Ham, we had Mikel in front of the defense and that still didn't help much. I think the real reason for today's problems was that neither Oscar or Ramires are natural holding mids.

The image is from the 58-59'th minute of the W-ham game.

Nice illustrations, but I was referring to instances like in this picture: For this particular example, there was no real problem as Ramires had moved forward when Hazard dropped deep. Thus the attacking shape was preserved. But there are instances where Mikel ponders with the ball too long, making the forward players drop back to make the pass Mikel could have made. This is detrimental in situations where we are on the back-foot/ chasing a game.

I can agree with that. That is a good reason for our attackers to drop deep, although I still feel he lingers on the ball too much,.. waiting for the attackers to come very close to his position before he makes the pass.

Yes that sounds pretty dumb, and no that still isn't what I was talking about. I didn't ask Mikel to go anywhere. I just want him to stop pondering on the ball during the buildup. When he ponders on the ball the attackers are forced to track back. I don't want them to track back, I want them to stay forward, and Mikel to pass to them when they come into a decent position. That way the shape of the attack doesn't change. I don't understand you're saying here..But anyway, you're saying Vidal was playing the box-to-box role Lampard plays in? Yes that was obvious from the highlights, and I know he does play that role. Ramires went into the box marking another attacker...There are two unmarked attackers (including Vidal) arriving into the box...What does Mikel do? He just jogs back, ball-watching and not paying attention to Vidal.. When the opposition is in my third of the pitch, I would expect my players to be more aware of their surroundings and make all possible attempts to stop the attack..and Mikel did not do that in that instance.

I regret even referring to that picture, because you still haven't address the two main points that I mentioned. You're saying the attackers need to be more dynamic, and shouldn't remain static upfront? Fair enough, that wasn't even my argument... You had said earlier that our most successful attacks came from our attackers dropping deep to collect the ball from Mikel..I'm saying that won't always work, and hasn't been working in the recent games..If the players interchanged positions, then the flow of the attack won't be disturbed...but that's not possible as Mikel can't venture forward, being the defensive mid. As a result one of Mata or Hazard drops deep, and this reduces options upfront. The other point was regarding his workrate when defending. You still haven't addressed Vidal's goal in the Juventus game..To me it looked as if he wasn't trying enough for that one, as well as for the equalizer in the previous clash with them..Of course you might have another explanation which I'll be happy to learn..

Why should he? He just made a fair observation..Mikel's work-rate hasn't been up to scratch recently. If you want to tell people to stop whining, try telling that to people who complain about a defeat or a draw.

Red scum obviously, when was the last time we faced the white ones in Europe?

That's what I can't understand either. Fair enough he has his qualities, but the way he's defended sometimes, its as if he's the perfect defensive mid.

No, I'm saying our attack would be more efficient if they stayed upfront. In the screenshot you showed me, the positioning of the players looks better (this was earlier in the season?). What I'm talking about is in reference to situations in which Hazard and Mata track back, almost to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Mikel to get the ball and start the buildup play. This has been happening more often in recent games. Ok, the Diame goal was not the best example as Ivanovic and Ramires are also culpable..Its probably down to bad communication. But you didn't mention Vidal's goal in the Juventus game? You can't tell me Mikel was doing his best there...

No I did not. Did you even see my post at the top of this page? I've been talking about his defensive work-rate and his passing, both of which have been poor in recent games this has caused problems in defense and in attack (WHEN we're on the backfoot). Its possibly true that our attackers are not finding good positions with consistency these days, forcing Mikel to wait before making a pass..But it ruins our attacking tempo, when midfielders like Mata have to build-up play from the centre, as it removes one body from the front.. A lot of successful attacking sequences have come when the attackers drop deep? Hardly surprising, as that's what happens most of the time. But right now those attackers are both short of form and energy during games, and it could help them a lot if they didn't have to build their attack from the centre every time. I knew Mikel was not in the same vein of Lampard and Essien several seasons ago, and I have NO problem with that. I do not expect him to burst forward at every opportunity, but I do expect him to be more than just a bystander in our buildup play. And lastly you're saying that our CM's pushed forward and this resulted in cheap goals during counterattacks? What about Diame's goal playing against West Ham? What about Vidal's goal playing against Juve? Take a GOOD look at Mikel's positioning in those games, and tell me if he was far up front. I know very well it was because of Mikel's contribution that we went far in last season's CL, but if you're saying he's putting in the same work rate that he put in during the CL final, then there's nothing more to discuss.

Thats exactly why I used that term.., because I feel Mikel can do better that. There are a lot of attacking players not performing at their best levels right now, but I think Mikel can make their job a lot easier with better passing.

Is it too much to expect a little more from from him, or are you saying he should just be a water-carrier for the team?

I'm not talking about a defense splitting through ball every time,..I'm talking about finding a player without forcing that player to come back and receive the ball. If you look at the second half of our last game, players like Mata/Hazard/Torres are coming back to get the ball from Mikel and this is ruining our attack. Its fine when the opposition sits back, but it sucks balls when they peg us back. It wouldn't be a problem if Mikel was paired up with another creative midfielder who could do that job, but when the person he's paired with is Ramires or Romeu, I expect him to make the better passes.

Great pass that...he needs to do more of the same, and stop expecting players like Mata or Hazard to come back to within 5 yards from where he's standing to get the ball. It just destroys the tempo.

Going off-topic as well, but yeah there should be more coordination between Ramires and Mikel. Probably have one of them chase down an attacker inside the box, while the other stays outside to guard against marauding midfielders. Its one of the things that irritates me when watching the games...like for example when Torres comes way too deep to collect the ball (What the hell is he going to do there?)...Those are some of the things that make me wonder whether our managers actually pay attention to our gameplay..