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Jason

Super Frank Thread

Started by Jason,

2,320 posts in this topic
12 minutes ago, Jason said:

Based on our current squad, I don't think the 4-3-3 is all that great as a default choice. In theory, the trio of Jorginho-Kovacic-Kante can help dominate matches but they don't provide much goal threat, if at all, and their creativity is questionable. Jorginho only score penalties while Kovacic and Kante only score once in a blue moon. With that kind of midfield, there's just too much (unnecessary) pressure on the front 3 to do all the creating and scoring. The reason why the 4-3-3 worked so well for us a decade ago was because we had Lampard, Ballack, Essien etc, who contributed goals and assists regularly, in addition to the front 3. What do I like though at the moment is that we have lots of midfield options, allowing us to play 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or some other kind of formation. For the time being at least, 4-2-3-1 works best IMO but we can tweak it depending on the opposition we play. 

And in the past, with Lampard, we also had all Maloudas and Joe Coles of this world - wingers which are usually not scoring more than 10 goals per season. Also, Ballack never scored more than 9 goals per season, Essien never more than 6 (so same as Kante). So I guess everyone scored 7-11 goals (except Lamps and Drogs).

I think we can have situation where Kova, Kante and Jorginho all have let's say 6 goals each, and wingers 15-17.

I am thinking more about the future here, but agree that we sometimes need to play 4-2-3-1 with Mount as #10.

EDIT: Kovacic scored 8 goals for Inter Milan in his last season, I think he is capable of doing that with us too.

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18 minutes ago, El P. said:

And in the past, with Lampard, we also had all Maloudas and Joe Coles of this world - wingers which are usually not scoring more than 10 goals per season. Also, Ballack never scored more than 9 goals per season, Essien never more than 6 (so same as Kante). So I guess everyone scored 7-11 goals (except Lamps and Drogs).

Malouda had 9 goals and 9 assists in 2008/09, 15 goals and 15 assists in 2009/10 and 14 goals and 5 assists in 2010/11. 

Cole had his injuries and inconsistencies but he had 9 goals in 2004/05, 11 in 2005/06 and 10 in 2007/08. (too lazy to check the Assist stats, sorry. :P)

We also had Anelka on the RW when Drogba was playing and he scored at least 15 goals in 3 of his 4 seasons with the club.

18 minutes ago, El P. said:

I think we can have situation where Kova, Kante and Jorginho all have let's say 6 goals each, and wingers 15-17.

Kante, maybe but his goals still feel like a once in a blue moon occasion.

Kovacic? Good luck with that, because in 10 previous seasons as a footballer, he scored more than 2 goals only TWICE - in 2011/12 with Dinamo Zagreb and 2014/15 with Inter - and he recently went like 2 years without a goal before his strike at Valencia.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is the Jorginho-Kovacic-Kante just doesn't give the confidence that there will be consistent goals (and assists) coming from them and maybe I'm just remembering the better times of past teams, but the midfield we had from a decade ago had more goal threat about them. Lampard, Ballack, Essien etc were more of a natural goalscorer (okay, maybe not Essien) than Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante etc. 

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1 minute ago, 1905didierblue said:

So are we sacking him? Are people's contingency plans ready? :ph34r:

There was no question that the players we have currently are not good enough. Lampard's game management was questionable but if there are signs of improvement, this at the very least can give the whole club some reassurances. 

Regardless, sacking him before we strengthen the squad that desperately needs strengthening is madness. 

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6 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

There was no question that the players we have currently are not good enough. Lampard's game management was questionable but if there are signs of improvement, this at the very least can give the whole club some reassurances. 

Regardless, sacking him before we strengthen the squad that desperately needs strengthening is madness. 

It was a sarcastic comment on some of the posters on here mate. I love sfl and for me, he should be our manager for the next season, no matter what happens between now and the end of the season.

He has already shown to be a great manager with a par squad. If he actually get a 200m war chest, he can do wonders. A couple of players here and there. And we would be quite good and for me, then and only then can we really judge him

 

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3 minutes ago, 1905didierblue said:

It was a sarcastic comment on some of the posters on here mate. I love sfl and for me, he should be our manager for the next season, no matter what happens between now and the end of the season.

He has already shown to be a great manager with a par squad. If he actually get a 200m war chest, he can do wonders. A couple of players here and there. And we would be quite good and for me, then and only then can we really judge him

 

To add further, with the way Frank is building the squad even if he ultimately turns out to not be a title winning manager he'd leave a competitive squad for a manager that is.

At absolute worst we have a Ranieri esque situation with Lamps.

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52 minutes ago, Jason said:

Malouda had 9 goals and 9 assists in 2008/09, 15 goals and 15 assists in 2009/10 and 14 goals and 5 assists in 2010/11. 

Well, that is a bit more than I thought, but my point still stands because for me it's simple - Chelsea from 2009 let's say relied on three players to score 13+ goals: Drogba, Lampard and Malouda. In other seasons too, Drogba+Lampard+Anelka let's say. And now I want us to rely on 3 players to score those amounts as well: Abraham and two wingers. Goals were not dutty of I don't know how much players, it was from three players.

In keeping current situation, as you would wish, I think we would end up with squad that will never be good enough to take down big guys. Lampard never played 4-2-3-1 against bigger sides for right reasons, we are just too fragile defensively like that (IMO we'd need to replace 2-3 players from defense to support that formation against bigger sides), hence why we had Kova and 4-3-3 to bring stability. But 4-3-3 as it is now has no enough firepower. So yeah, I don't see how could we have WC first XI continuing like that.

I am for bringing Sancho, but I am not for playing 4-3-3 all of the time, of course. We can still play 4-2-3-1 against smaller sides so Mount and Pulisic could get more goals (I assume CHO will be our starter sooner rather than later, and both Mount and Puly could get to the 7-8 goals being rotational players).

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7 minutes ago, El P. said:

I am for bringing Sancho, but I am not for playing 4-3-3 all of the time, of course. We can still play 4-2-3-1 against smaller sides so Mount and Pulisic could get more goals (I assume CHO will be our starter sooner rather than later, and both Mount and Puly could get to the 7-8 goals being rotational players).

Ho ho. I don't think it's gonna be as straightforward as that. CHO hasn't done enough to suggest he'll be a starter any time soon while Lampard loves Mount and Willian. 

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Hey he changed the game. He saw he fucked up he saw we were being overrun. So he changed it. Cant ask for more. As long as he learns and we see passion and progress then lets keep going at it. But no denying we are in dire need of new players.....quality players thank you. Enough with the dross.

bigbluewillie, Johnnyeye and manpe like this

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He seriously scored than many in 10/11? I swear he was diabolical every time he played.
He was our best Player in that Season,especially in the first half of the Season. Probably the best crosser I have seen in my life.


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4 minutes ago, Vesper said:

"Mikel Arteta isn’t silly, he saw us play it at Tottenham, found a way to pin our five back. They had us marking one at the back, they had numbers in midfield, they won all the second balls and that had to change."

And probably the Southampton game too where we were ridiculously bad too using 343 at the beginning but he played it anyways today to the same affect. Yeah Frank outlined why it didnt work after but he persisted with it at the start. For me thats not a good sign because Tottenham and Arsenal are totally different and thats without even mentioning Southampton. I almost get the feeling he realised from the start we would be up against it but his arrogance of how we played in Spurs performance made him think it was the right move. Despite the fact Southampton was the game prior to Arsenal.... I hope we dont play 343 next match.

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3 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

"Mikel Arteta isn’t silly, he saw us play it at Tottenham, found a way to pin our five back. They had us marking one at the back, they had numbers in midfield, they won all the second balls and that had to change."

And probably the Southampton game too where we were ridiculously bad too using 343 at the beginning but he played it anyways today to the same affect. Yeah Frank outlined why it didnt work after but he persisted with it at the start. For me thats not a good sign because Tottenham and Arsenal are totally different and thats without even mentioning Southampton. I almost get the feeling he realised from the start we would be up against it but his arrogance of how we played in Spurs performance made him think it was the right move. Despite the fact Southampton was the game prior to Arsenal.... I hope we dont play 343 next match.

It was the same thing earlier this season. Started with the 3-4-3 at Wolves and we won 5-2, then he started the same system in the next game and we duly lost to Valencia with a very flat performance.

I just don't get why Lampard persisted with the back 3 when on both occasions, we played it to specifically counter opposing teams.

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It was the same thing earlier this season. Started with the 3-4-3 at Wolves and we won 5-2, then he started the same system in the next game and we duly lost to Valencia with a very flat performance.
I just don't get why Lampard persisted with the back 3 when on both occasions, we played it to specifically counter opposing teams.
Mou only played 4-2-3-1. Conte, when he found that 3-4-3 was Working, played that System til he got sacked. Sometimes, he played 3-5-2.
Lamps has two Systems and neither are perfect for our squad. In a 3 men back, you need to have creative CBs. Rüdiger and Zouma are the worst players at long balls I have seen in a long time. Only Tomori can actually pass the ball.
In a 4 man back, we are way more vulnerable conceding goals because our back 4 is not good enough at defending and our Defensive midfielders sometimes make weird passes to the opponent.



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3 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Mou only played 4-2-3-1. Conte, when he found that 3-4-3 was Working, played that System til he got sacked. Sometimes, he played 3-5-2.
Lamps has two Systems and neither are perfect for our squad. In a 3 men back, you need to have creative CBs. Rüdiger and Zouma are the worst players at long balls I have seen in a long time. Only Tomori can actually pass the ball.
In a 4 man back, we are way more vulnerable conceding goals because our back 4 is not good enough at defending and our Defensive midfielders sometimes make weird passes to the opponent.

Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 

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Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 


I know what you mean, but sometimes tactics are not as easy as we think. Lamps could started a 4-3-3 and Mikel could have done something completely else than he did against us and then maybe Lamps would have then switched to 4 at the back.
Arteta is new in the game, so he is pretty unpredictable.

Me personally, I don't like playing with 3 at the back with players like Rüdiger and Zouma. Under Conte it worked because Luiz was the Master at long Balls and we had also Cesc to play Fabrepasses, so enough creativity. Also, we had Hazard who could score a decisive goal. But I would still go with a 3 at the back against Bayern.

Now you are talking about good Defensive Coaches? Which ones? Mou who can't make average defenders at Spurs better?
Klopp, who needed VVD to stabilize his Defense ?
Guardiola? Just kidding haha
Simeone? Probably the only real deal with Conte when it comes to top class defensive coaching.
Even Conte could only make us better for one season from the defensive point of view. We just lack in quality.


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