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Jason

Super Frank Thread

Started by Jason,

4,748 posts in this topic
19 minutes ago, Tomo said:

If we ever appoint a Simeone or Allegri it can only be justified with strong challenges for the big two every season at a minimum.

Very few teams can do that mate, so a bit unfair.....all I know is they are astute and capable. We aint getting none of the names mentioned anyway as Frank deserved a proper go. Next season is vital, then we will see what Frank is made of.

 

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Just now, Atomiswave said:

Very few teams can do that mate, so a bit unfair.....all I know is they are astute and capable. We aint getting none of the names mentioned anyway as Frank deserved a proper go. Next season is vital, then we will see what Frank is made of.

Not for me, they're instant results based manager's who don't really look at the bigger picture (especially in Allegri's case), those methods can only be justified by getting results and big one's. Manager's like Lampard, Pochettino and even OGS you can offer a bit of leeway too as they try to build a sustainable squad and brand of football that will benefit the club even if they don't turn out to be good enough.

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45 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Not for me, they're instant results based manager's who don't really look at the bigger picture (especially in Allegri's case), those methods can only be justified by getting results and big one's. Manager's like Lampard, Pochettino and even OGS you can offer a bit of leeway too as they try to build a sustainable squad and brand of football that will benefit the club even if they don't turn out to be good enough.

You dont think Simone looks at the bigger picture, he has been in AM for ages, they will die for him. He has his style, some love it some hate it, but still very hard to play against year after year.

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2 hours ago, Tomo said:

If we ever appoint a Simeone or Allegri it can only be justified with strong challenges for the big two every season at a minimum.

This should be minimum always for every manager (except this season because of transfer ban).

I think Roman agrees with me.

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Not sure I understand this if Frank improve us next season narrative?

He got three amazing offensive players. And will still get 3 or 4 new signings. Next season we will be stronger 60%. 

Was looking at our results this season and if we just had Werner, Hakim and Havertz I think this is 20+ points.

Anything less than 85 points next season is not acceptable.

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2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Not sure I understand this if Frank improve us next season narrative?

He got three amazing offensive players. And will still get 3 or 4 new signings. Next season we will be stronger 60%. 

Was looking at our results this season and if we just had Werner, Hakim and Havertz I think this is 20+ points.

Anything less than 85 points next season is not acceptable.

Doesnt work that way always sadly, its a new league new intensity etc. They have to gel first, new style, play mates and all that. They will def give us more threat and goals I agree but the shape must improve, the defence must be better otherwise forget 20+ pts. Ohh and dont forget injuries, they have been coming thick and fast all season.

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4 hours ago, Atomiswave said:

You dont think Simone looks at the bigger picture, he has been in AM for ages, they will die for him. He has his style, some love it some hate it, but still very hard to play against year after year.

He has been there for ages, spent hundreds of millions and been nothing more than a cup team. Won the league once and has barely challenged Real Madrid and Barcelona for the title in other seasons, even when they are both flopping at the same time. They are hard to beat but there is nothing progressive about them and are more of a workaholic side than anything else. Am sure there are Atletico fans who crave for something more exciting after all these years. 

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34 minutes ago, Jason said:

He has been there for ages, spent hundreds of millions and been nothing more than a cup team. Won the league once and has barely challenged Real Madrid and Barcelona for the title in other seasons, even when they are both flopping at the same time. They are hard to beat but there is nothing progressive about them and are more of a workaholic side than anything else. Am sure there are Atletico fans who crave for something more exciting after all these years. 

Tbf for a team who has never had any actual real world class players bar Falcao, Griezmann and Oblak during his spell there theyve always been competitive and achieved a lot still, more than people give them credit for. 

Also to have won La Liga, in this era, with a team such as Atletico I dont think you understand how big a feat that is. Really it was massive. Not as big as Leicester under Ranieri but its not completely too far off that if I am honest.

I mean I am guessing you think something similar of Klopp who won Bundesliga twice at BVB then never done anything of real note after? Or..?

A lot of people dont like his style, maybe (personally dont think its that bad) but at least you know your never going to question these guys in their effort and commitment each season which you cannot say about very many other teams who can be very good one season then completely shite the next (weve had it a few times now as have City, Spurs, United and Arsenal). In my eyes, If he ever leaves Atletico and a new manager comes in to that squad, they will not do as well either, similarly like Moyes at United going in after Ferguson. Basically same team but will never get the same out of them, so I would imagine Atletico fans would be very wary of replacing him so easily. I mean those players, what he got out of some of them who then moved on and havent done half as well sort of clarifies how good a manager he really is.  Arda Turan at Barcelona, not even a 10th of the player he was at Atletico. Godin at Inter? Not even half thr player he was there. Peformances that he got out of Juanfran, Gabi, Filipe Luis, Diego Costa... nobody ever seen them reaching those heights either. Griezmann was a good player before but he became world class under Simeone.

One of the best managers around for sure.

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59 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Doesnt work that way always sadly, its a new league new intensity etc. They have to gel first, new style, play mates and all that. They will def give us more threat and goals I agree but the shape must improve, the defence must be better otherwise forget 20+ pts. Ohh and dont forget injuries, they have been coming thick and fast all season.

We are going to have an abundance of talent up top next season. Not to mention the quality in depth now. Lampard's team management will be tested. 

Not only that, we should be expecting improvement on 'in game' management and closing games out. 

Zero excuses if those aren't improved. 

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4 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Tbf for a team who has never had any actual real world class players bar Falcao, Griezmann and Oblak during his spell there theyve always been competitive and achieved a lot still, more than people give them credit for. 

Also to have won La Liga, in this era, with a team such as Atletico I dont think you understand how big a feat that is. Really it was massive. Not as big as Leicester under Ranieri but its not completely too far off that if I am honest.

But is it wrong to wonder if Atletico could do more under Simeone? He's been there for 9 years and let's not pretend as if his style doesn't restrict creative players, for example. I don't expect them to win La Liga every season or something like that to barely even challenge the big two, despite having spent millions over the years and those being inconsistent in certain seasons? That is underwhelming. Imagine us spending hundreds of millions but don't challenge Liverpool and Man City for the league title and only ultimately good as a cup team!

7 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

A lot of people dont like his style, maybe (personally dont think its that bad) but at least you know your never going to question these guys in their effort and commitment each season which you cannot say about very many other teams who can be very good one season then completely shite the next (weve had it a few times now as have City, Spurs, United and Arsenal). In my eyes, If he ever leaves Atletico and a new manager comes in to that squad, they will not do as well either, similarly like Moyes at United going in after Ferguson. Basically same team but will never get the same out of them, so I would imagine Atletico fans would be very wary of replacing him so easily. I mean those players, what he got out of some of them who then moved on and havent done half as well sort of clarifies how good a manager he really is.  Arda Turan at Barcelona, not even a 10th of the player he was at Atletico. Godin at Inter? Not even half thr player he was there. Peformances that he got out of Juanfran, Gabi, Filipe Luis, Diego Costa... nobody ever seen them reaching those heights either. Griezmann was a good player before but he became world class under Simeone.

Sooner or later, Simeone will leave Atletico and they are gonna have to sort it out anyway. You used United as an example and I can use Arsenal as an example, where they stuck with Wenger for too long and allowed the rot to spread throughout the club and now they are having to build back up. Atletico are obviously nowhere near that but they are arguably have a decent enough team and good club structure that when Simeone leaves, the next manager wouldn't suffer too much. Assuming they hire a competent manager obviously. 

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20 minutes ago, Jason said:

But is it wrong to wonder if Atletico could do more under Simeone? He's been there for 9 years and let's not pretend as if his style doesn't restrict creative players, for example. I don't expect them to win La Liga every season or something like that to barely even challenge the big two, despite having spent millions over the years and those being inconsistent in certain seasons? That is underwhelming. Imagine us spending hundreds of millions but don't challenge Liverpool and Man City for the league title and only ultimately good as a cup team!

Sooner or later, Simeone will leave Atletico and they are gonna have to sort it out anyway. You used United as an example and I can use Arsenal as an example, where they stuck with Wenger for too long and allowed the rot to spread throughout the club and now they are having to build back up. Atletico are obviously nowhere near that but they are arguably have a decent enough team and good club structure that when Simeone leaves, the next manager wouldn't suffer too much. Assuming they hire a competent manager obviously. 


Okay but how much money did we spend in Conte’s second season? And then under Sarri? Hundreds of millions between those guys? We were exclusively cup teams those seasons as well lets not kid around. And under Villas-Boas, Di Matteo and Benitez again, cup teams more or less. So it is a bit odd to say that that’s underwhelming for Atletico when say out of the last 8 seasons we’ve been much more a cup team more often than not, okay weve won 2 leagues but again is winning the PL as tough as trying to beat a Barcelona or Real Madrid to La Liga where they have I dont know, 5 times the budget plus probably 2 of the greatest players in football history for the majority of that time? Not a chance. Its not as if we’ve challenged every season either. So to say they’ve underwhelmed I am guessing you have got the same opinion on the majority of the last 10 years here? Even including a CL win and 2 Europa Leagues? If Atletico didnt concede in the 95th minute in 2014(?) CL final their trophy haul would have probably been near identical in terms of having a league, a few domestic cups and european cups. Even without a CL, where they’ve been to 2 finals with Simeone, a La Liga, Copa del Ray, Supercopa Espana, 2 Europa Leagues and 2 UEFA Supercups in 9 years is impressive. Would be downright snobbery to say that isn’t impressive for any team, never mind Atletico, 7 cup wins in 9 years.

I suppose it does depend on who they appoint after but Arsenal is a bad example also, since Wenger retired again, they had 1 good season with Emery then flaked away and while Arteta looks to have a very good idea and way of playing he needs players too where as Wenger was able to get them in the top 4 regularly not spending huge sums and maybe he should have done a bit more but again, he won trophies there also such as FA Cups and the Community Shield thing. I dont think Arsenal are completely out of the woods yet. Even if things look ‘better’ but is their recruitment any better? Is their league position really better? Wheres the likes of these Nasri’s, Cesc’s and van Persie’s coming in cheap and growing with the club? He signed their two best players at current, Lacazette and Aubamayeng and without them theyd be pish pretty much. Bar Leno, Tierney, Ceballos, Pepe and Martinelli the after Wenger signings have been poor. Even then Pepe not done enough and it took 6 months for Ceballos to really get going. It will take more than just a good manager to take Atletico further, they change their style they will need to change a lot of personnel because some are going to look out of place in a non Simeone team where the organisation, work rate and intensity isnt the same.

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2 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Okay but how much money did we spend in Conte’s second season? And then under Sarri? Hundreds of millions between those guys? We were exclusively cup teams those seasons as well lets not kid around. And under Villas-Boas, Di Matteo and Benitez again, cup teams more or less. So it is a bit odd to say that that’s underwhelming for Atletico when say out of the last 8 seasons we’ve been much more a cup team more often than not, okay weve won 2 leagues but again is winning the PL as tough as trying to beat a Barcelona or Real Madrid to La Liga where they have I dont know, 5 times the budget plus probably 2 of the greatest players in football history for the majority of that time? Not a chance. Its not as if we’ve challenged every season either. So to say they’ve underwhelmed I am guessing you have got the same opinion on the majority of the last 10 years here? Even including a CL win and 2 Europa Leagues? If Atletico didnt concede in the 95th minute in 2014(?) CL final their trophy haul would have probably been near identical in terms of having a league, a few domestic cups and european cups. Even without a CL, where they’ve been to 2 finals with Simeone, a La Liga, Copa del Ray, Supercopa Espana, 2 Europa Leagues and 2 UEFA Supercups in 9 years is impressive. Would be downright snobbery to say that isn’t impressive for any team, never mind Atletico, 7 cup wins in 9 years.

What are you even going on here? Did I discredit their cup wins or cup runs or any of their achievement under Simeone? Am I wrong to suggest that they are nothing more than a cup team? I am aware that they have had to deal with Messi and Ronaldo over the years but even with those two, Real Madrid and Barcelona have had underwhelming seasons and did Atletico even get close to the top? Apart from that one season, they have not and I don't think anyone is saying our league record in the last decade is great either, considering it's either been awesome or crash and burn. We ourselves have often criticized the club, the manager, the players when we have failed in the league. Should there be any difference with Atletico when they have also spent money? 

12 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I suppose it does depend on who they appoint after but Arsenal is a bad example also, since Wenger retired again, they had 1 good season with Emery then flaked away and while Arteta looks to have a very good idea and way of playing he needs players too where as Wenger was able to get them in the top 4 regularly not spending huge sums. I dont think Arsenal are completely out of the woods yet. 

How is Arsenal a bad example? I mentioned them because they kept Wenger for far too long and allowed the rot to set in. Sure, they won a few FA Cups and finished in the Top 4 but that only papered over the cracks and the post-Wenger period has only served to justify that. Again, Atletico are not in a bad situation like Arsenal were under Wenger a few years ago and am sure they are still happy with Simeone but that doesn't mean or shouldn't prevent from looking to the future when the time comes. They shouldn't let fear or the thought of 'oh shit, we are screwed if Simeone goes' cloud their judgment. 

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12 hours ago, Fernando said:

The guy from Leipzig? 

No thank you. 

I watched Dortmund vs leipzig. It was suicidal game by leipzig

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6 hours ago, communicate said:

No thank you. 

I watched Dortmund vs leipzig. It was suicidal game by leipzig

One bad game and it's put you off on a manager? :carlo: Okay...

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17 minutes ago, Jason said:

One bad game and it's put you off on a manager? :carlo: Okay...

Its not like the same cant be said abour fans on here. :ph34r:

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12 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Its not like the same cant be said abour fans on here. :ph34r:

lol Going by the logic above, guess every manager is terrible then. 

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53 minutes ago, Jason said:

One bad game and it's put you off on a manager? :carlo: Okay...

Maube my judgment is premature but It feel like he tend to stick to his philosophy which I am not big fan of. Haaland had I think 6 good chances  by himself and It was so easy for Dortmund to get behind  leipzig d line. 

 

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15 hours ago, Jason said:

He has been there for ages, spent hundreds of millions and been nothing more than a cup team. Won the league once and has barely challenged Real Madrid and Barcelona for the title in other seasons, even when they are both flopping at the same time. They are hard to beat but there is nothing progressive about them and are more of a workaholic side than anything else. Am sure there are Atletico fans who crave for something more exciting after all these years. 

He has spent no where near what barca and rm have spent at the same time frame. He can develope players, can make the most of his players and consistently have them in top 3. He is a good proven manager with a certain style, they dont have to be progressive cuz what thay do works and they are all used to that habitat. Workaholics.....we could use few of those ourselves. You give him a quality squad and he will do more damage.

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1 hour ago, Atomiswave said:

He has spent no where near what barca and rm have spent at the same time frame.

Just because a club have spent more than another, it doesn't mean that other club can't be competitive. Atletico have spent considerable money themselves and in Barcelona, their spending has been all over the place in recent years with no clear plan on what they want to do.

1 hour ago, Atomiswave said:

He is a good proven manager with a certain style, they dont have to be progressive cuz what thay do works and they are all used to that habitat.

Simeone is a good manager and is good at what he does. One would be silly to dispute that but majority, if not all, the top European clubs these days want to play progressive football, attacking football. They want to win and win with the style. Clubs now are not just satisfied with winning anymore. Juventus, for instance, went for Sarri last summer simply because of his playing style. They didn't care about the fact that he had won only 1 trophy in his career. Heck, we hired Sarri for pretty much the same reason as well. There's a reason why managers like Mourinho finds himself at Spurs or Benitez in China. To Simeone's credit, he has tried to make Atletico more attacking but that hasn't exactly worked out.

2 hours ago, Atomiswave said:

You give him a quality squad and he will do more damage.

If only life works that simple...

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