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Jason

Super Frank Thread

Started by Jason,

2,808 posts in this topic
22 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Because Cavani was the only real target we could've brought in, and he's saving himself for Atletico. 

Correction: Cavani is the only big name target we could've brought in.

Quote

It genuinely sounds like you would risk the club bringing in more Zappacostas, Drinkwaters, Barkley's, etc in January just to secure Top 4, not even considering the detrimental risk in the long run. 

Lampard had a list of players that he wanted. He gotten zilch this window.

Top 4 is very important for Chelsea FC. We lose a ton of money we need for the summer by not being in it. There is no "long run" if we are failing to repair the present.

Lampard being in the last 16 of the CL gave us more money than Sarri winning the EL.

So bringing in a short term player, that boosts our chances to get top 4 is well all and fine by me then not getting anybody in and watch this team fail.

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1 hour ago, Mana said:

Correction: Cavani is the only big name target we could've brought in.

Lampard had a list of players that he wanted. He gotten zilch this window.

Top 4 is very important for Chelsea FC. We lose a ton of money we need for the summer by not being in it. There is no "long run" if we are failing to repair the present.

Lampard being in the last 16 of the CL gave us more money than Sarri winning the EL.

So bringing in a short term player, that boosts our chances to get top 4 is well all and fine by me then not getting anybody in and watch this team fail.

Cavani? Again, he didn't want to come here. I for one am getting sick of hearing Lampard complain of the lack of striker options. Giroud should've played all of Batshuayi's minutes and even some of Tammy's this season. 

Ajax didn't want to get rid of Ziyech in the middle of the season and the club aren't going to spend 80 million for a bang average defender in Chilwell. 

What other players made Lampard's list  that would improve us? In January? The club doesn't want to make the same mistakes it did in 2017 with filling this team with players who at best could be described as Bang Average. 

It is not all doom and gloom as you make it if we miss out on CL. You make it sound as if its 'game over'. Arsenal managed to secure Pepe, Tierney, and Aubameyang without being in the CL. They are now rumored to be front runners to get Upamecano. Are you telling me they are more attractive than us? This is a side that hasn't won the bloody league in almost 20 years and haven't qualified for the CL in 5. 

 

 

 

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If Lampard is going to be sacked by December I would rather we sack him before the summer window so that our next manager buys his players, we cant be stuck with Lampard's players next season and a new manager trying to shoehorn them in. Thats why we have the mess we have right now. 

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4 minutes ago, Vybz Kartel said:

If Lampard is going to be sacked by December I would rather we sack him before the summer window so that our next manager buys his players, we cant be stuck with Lampard's players next season and a new manager trying to shoehorn them in. Thats why we have the mess we have right now. 

If we continue with the progressive football route it won't matter who Lampard brings in (in the hypothetical he gets sacked later on)? CHO/Pulisic/Ruben/Mount/Kovacic/Sancho/Werner/Ziyech/Grimaldo or what ever, any progressive manager can work with these players. 

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6 hours ago, Jason said:

It's not by Matt Law but...

Frank Lampard will come under serious scrutiny should Chelsea fail to secure a Champions League spot this season 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/02/18/frank-lampard-will-come-serious-scrutiny-should-chelsea-fail/

 

 

And rightly so.

Top 4 was still achieveable and despite it being still esrly in the season even more so after the first 10 or 12 games when others around us faltered and we had a huge points gap.

People will say young players coming through is a saving grace but if we finish 6th or 7th which is all but possible if we continue to freefall, is it really? 

An experienced manager as weve mentioned before wont have been so quick to dismiss Giroud, Pedro and even Barkley when others underperformed earlier on and his lack of faith in these guys, regardless how good or bad they are, has undoubtedly had a part in whats happening now as they are out of form and match fitness when we need them due to injuries. Football is a squad game, the injuries weve had this season has been telling. 

The boards failure to bring somebody experienced or a few players in the January window, which Frank stressed about adding to the group, also hasnt helped him.

We have seen all season from a coaching point of view, the teams defensive shape and ability to defend set pieced has also cost us dearly in games in Europe and in the league. Only Villa have conceded more goals from set plays & corners IIRC but have faced a lot more than we have.

I think Frank will be gone if he doesnt get top 4. Theres no excuse to have 12 points clear at one point and then to lose that spot. He can claim we are underdogs for the top 4 now as everyone else strengthened around us but again Mourinho, Arteta, Wilder etc have also managed to change their clubs fortunes/continue good form due to coaching more than recruitment. Arsenal may have only won a few under Arteta but somehow find themselves closer to us than under Emery and there is a clear, visible improvement which will undoubtedbly continue next season when Arteta gets a full pre season. Same with Mourinho, who okay he is more a result orientated manager as opposed to putting a clear identity on his side but again, they are picking up points. Its not just this season we risk falling behind, Spurs were always a couple of additions short of being title challengers under Pochettino I think and Arsenal lacked under Emery but they are on upward trajectories as opposed to downward ones now in my eyes. We are slipping and struggling.

The summer window is vital for us regardless of manager as well, we will lose experienced players and how we go about replacing that while adding quality in the same window will be intriguing to not avoid what we had when we let Ballack, Joe Cole, Belletti, Carvalho and Deco go because you cannot underestimate experience and winners, especially when its guys like Pedro who has won every trophy more or less at club and international level, Willian who has won a few PLs and cups here and Giroud a WC winner qnd has won countless FA cups. Okay those other guys before were maybe more reliable and better players but again, Cech, Cole, Brana, Drogba, Terry, Cahill etc have all left in the last however long too and we do lack top experienced pros who know what it takes in this current squad. So adding quality and that sort of experience/winning mentality is vital because it can be difficult to develop. Even Courtois, Costa and Cesc had that from spells at other clubs and brought it here.

Another win vs Spurs would just paper over the cracks I feel. As the previous one did.

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1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

And rightly so.

Top 4 was still achieveable and despite it being still esrly in the season even more so after the first 10 or 12 games when others around us faltered and we had a huge points gap.

People will say young players coming through is a saving grace but if we finish 6th or 7th which is all but possible if we continue to freefall, is it really? 

An experienced manager as weve mentioned before wont have been so quick to dismiss Giroud, Pedro and even Barkley when others underperformed earlier on and his lack of faith in these guys, regardless how good or bad they are, has undoubtedly had a part in whats happening now as they are out of form and match fitness when we need them due to injuries. Football is a squad game, the injuries weve had this season has been telling. 

The boards failure to bring somebody experienced or a few players in the January window, which Frank stressed about adding to the group, also hasnt helped him.

We have seen all season from a coaching point of view, the teams defensive shape and ability to defend set pieced has also cost us dearly in games in Europe and in the league. Only Villa have conceded more goals from set plays & corners IIRC but have faced a lot more than we have.

I think Frank will be gone if he doesnt get top 4. Theres no excuse to have 12 points clear at one point and then to lose that spot. He can claim we are underdogs for the top 4 now as everyone else strengthened around us but again Mourinho, Arteta, Wilder etc have also managed to change their clubs fortunes/continue good form due to coaching more than recruitment. Arsenal may have only won a few under Arteta but somehow find themselves closer to us than under Emery and there is a clear, visible improvement which will undoubtedbly continue next season when Arteta gets a full pre season. Same with Mourinho, who okay he is more a result orientated manager as opposed to putting a clear identity on his side but again, they are picking up points. Its not just this season we risk falling behind, Spurs were always a couple of additions short of being title challengers under Pochettino I think and Arsenal lacked under Emery but they are on upward trajectories as opposed to downward ones now in my eyes. We are slipping and struggling.

The summer window is vital for us regardless of manager as well, we will lose experienced players and how we go about replacing that while adding quality in the same window will be intriguing to not avoid what we had when we let Ballack, Joe Cole, Belletti, Carvalho and Deco go because you cannot underestimate experience and winners, especially when its guys like Pedro who has won every trophy more or less at club and international level, Willian who has won a few PLs and cups here and Giroud a WC winner qnd has won countless FA cups. Okay those other guys before were maybe more reliable and better players but again, Cech, Cole, Brana, Drogba, Terry, Cahill etc have all left in the last however long too and we do lack top experienced pros who know what it takes in this current squad. So adding quality and that sort of experience/winning mentality is vital because it can be difficult to develop. Even Courtois, Costa and Cesc had that from spells at other clubs and brought it here.

Another win vs Spurs would just paper over the cracks I feel. As the previous one did.

Unless we continue to regress and show no sign of improvement, what would be the point of sacking Lampard if we miss out on the Top 4? If the club are really worried about not finishing in the Top 4, they might as well just pull the trigger now and be done with it. Otherwise, we're better off continuing what we started (assuming we stop spiraling out of control). 

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2 hours ago, Jason said:

Unless we continue to regress and show no sign of improvement, what would be the point of sacking Lampard if we miss out on the Top 4? If the club are really worried about not finishing in the Top 4, they might as well just pull the trigger now and be done with it. Otherwise, we're better off continuing what we started (assuming we stop spiraling out of control). 

The point would be if he isnt the right guy to bring on us and get us back competing whats the point in keeping him? His legacy as a player? Hes not Klopp or Guardiola either which people keep seeming to rather stupidly compare our predicament now to their first seasons. They were both top managers prior to coming to the PL and would still be even if they didnt achieve anything. The club will want to get top 4 and as argued before a more experienced and proven manager could likely have achieved this with our squad before a ball was kicked. Even more so being 12 points clear of the top 4 at the time we were. It even looked difficult for us and Frank to somehow mess that up. If we dont do well in the Spurs game and CL double header he could be gone. Allegri and Pochettino are sitting unemployed.... 

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3 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

The point would be if he isnt the right guy to bring on us and get us back competing whats the point in keeping him? His legacy as a player? Hes not Klopp or Guardiola either which people keep seeming to rather stupidly compare our predicament now to their first seasons. They were both top managers prior to coming to the PL and would still be even if they didnt achieve anything. The club will want to get top 4 and as argued before a more experienced and proven manager could achieve this with our squad before a ball was kicked. Even more so being 12 points clear of the top 4 at the time we were. It even looked difficult for us and Frank to somehow mess that up. If we dont do well in the Spurs game and CL double header he could be gone. Allegri and Pochettino are sitting unemployed.... 

Precisely why I said "Unless we continue to regress and show no sign of improvement". If we somehow rediscover our form again but just miss out on the Top 4, then what's the point of sacking him then? Might as well let Lampard continue what he started. If we continue to regress and miss out on Top 4, then yeah, you could make a case of sacking him then and there. If the club are gonna sack Lampard simply because we miss out on the Top 4, then they are idiots. If they are really worried about finishing in the Top 4, they might as well just sack him now. 

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33 minutes ago, Jason said:

Precisely why I said "Unless we continue to regress and show no sign of improvement". If we somehow rediscover our form again but just miss out on the Top 4, then what's the point of sacking him then? Might as well let Lampard continue what he started. If we continue to regress and miss out on Top 4, then yeah, you could make a case of sacking him then and there. If the club are gonna sack Lampard simply because we miss out on the Top 4, then they are idiots. If they are really worried about finishing in the Top 4, they might as well just sack him now. 

It just depends.

Even if we rediscover some form but miss out on the top 4 people will scrutinise Franks management and how we blew that 12 point lead for whatever reason and again, quite rightly so, if we were first and blew a 12 point lead and ended up not winning the league it would be the exact same if not worse and right now getting a top 4 space has to be treated like a trophy for us because Liverpool and City are well ahead of us. Even more so if it is more of the same next season. Its a slippery slope once you miss out on the CL, as weve seen with United, Arsenal and even Liverpool years ago.

This whole might as well let manager X continue what he has started is pointless because its never really happened here and realistically I doubt it will anytime soon. Carlo, Villas-Boas, Di Matteo, Jose, Conte etc all got booted and people were calling for Sarri's head (I think you were quite vocal about this so whats the difference this time?) although people suggested he needed time and players so why should that be the case for Frank if it isnt for others? Because hes a club legend as a player here? Big emphasis on player. Because he plays academy players? Because he doesnt have Hazard? 

I think as many would of predicted the job perhaps came too soon for him but he looked as if he was learning and growing into the experience but the last 3 months or so we look considerably considerably worse at times than we did under Sarri and Conte for me. Okay players have changed but again, they had the experience that you thought okay theyll manage to get us over the line in some capacity. We just look as if we are in free fall and its not done yet by the looks of it, the squad doesnt have thay experience in certain areas to grind out results when playing piss poor and the experienced players we do have, he has marginalised for whatever stupid reason. We cannot even do the basics right in some matches and not just against the top teams either which is alarming.

Before a ball was kicked top 4 under FL who has no experience yes it would of been taken there and then. Being 12 points clear with others faulting around us and now a huge possibility of falling away and missing out to whoever from United, Spurs, Arsenal, Sheffield United and Wolves? Any other manager and the disconent would of started sooner.

The thing is as well, even if we do scrape it still performing like this to the end of the season (would be a miracle) I am worried about Spurs and even Arsenal with Arteta, who looks like he is finally getting his identity and ideas across for next season because if they get full pre seasons and build on what they are doing and we regress again, its going to be even harder. If the guy isnt going to be up to the job, which we will find out in the coming weeks as we reach a huge defining period of the season, then the club has a decision to make. Before we end up like Man United, falling away because we staked all our chips on young players and a club legend with little managerial experience and feel too sentimental to do the right thing. The next month will tell us what sort of spell Franks gonna have here because the pressure is on. 

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Our troubles started the moment Abraham and Mount decided to stop scoring and Pulisic got injured. Sure, Kante returning from injury happened around the same time and although he has disrupted our midfield play and for some curious reason put Kovacic on the bench, it isn't his fault the attacking players can't seem to find the goal anymore. It isn't just few chances we've missed this season. I can easily point out 40 chances in the league alone, of which at least 20 should have been converted into goals. Had we done that, we'd be 2nd in the league not 4th, and this whole discussion wouldn't be even taking place.

Sure, we have also leaked A TON of cheap, soft goals. Usually those occur by the time our misfiring attackers have frustrated everyone in the stadium. Something has to be done about set piece defending and generally aerial defending inside our box and it's disappointing to see us make very little progress in this regard during the season. I do expect us to sign a CB and LB in the summer, but for the time being we'd be better off playing either Tomori or Zouma next to Rudiger rather than AC who just doesn't cut it in PL for me. Azpi also isn't a LB, and although I can understand Lamps shoehorning into the starting XI due to him being one of the few experienced leaders in the squad, he's just hurting our attacking play far too much.

TL;DR: We REALLY need a striker, and eventually better defenders too. 

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One point that I think is rarely mentioned is that whether Lampard has surrounded himself with the right coaching staff. Jody Morris, Joe Edwards etc are good at what they do but they are still inexperienced at the highest level and that coupled with Lampard's own inexperience feels like a recipe for disaster, and they all feel like his people. There's no one experienced to maybe provide some sort of guidance or advice in these tough period. 

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10 minutes ago, Jason said:

One point that I think is rarely mentioned is that whether Lampard has surrounded himself with the right coaching staff. Jody Morris, Joe Edwards etc are good at what they do but they are still inexperienced at the highest level and that coupled with Lampard's own inexperience feels like a recipe for disaster, and they all feel like his people. There's no one experienced to maybe provide some sort of guidance or advice in these tough period. 

Still surprised Jody Morris didnt go for a manager's job himself after his experience with the youth teams here. Thought we would of seen him go and become a manager or headcoach before Frank a few years ago if Im honest.

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19 minutes ago, Jason said:

One point that I think is rarely mentioned is that whether Lampard has surrounded himself with the right coaching staff. Jody Morris, Joe Edwards etc are good at what they do but they are still inexperienced at the highest level and that coupled with Lampard's own inexperience feels like a recipe for disaster, and they all feel like his people. There's no one experienced to maybe provide some sort of guidance or advice in these tough period. 

If he is not able to coach this team properly without someone experienced in his staff we can change the head coach anyway and bring in someone who knows what he is doing.

Klopp got rid off Buvac - his long-time partner and no regression happened.

Mourinho switched to Sacramento as Assistant and it didn't influence him.

 

So why does Frank need to have someone in his staff that is experienced and holds his hand? 

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18 minutes ago, Jason said:

One point that I think is rarely mentioned is that whether Lampard has surrounded himself with the right coaching staff. Jody Morris, Joe Edwards etc are good at what they do but they are still inexperienced at the highest level and that coupled with Lampard's own inexperience feels like a recipe for disaster, and they all feel like his people. There's no one experienced to maybe provide some sort of guidance or advice in these tough period. 

I mentioned it several times. Chelsea FC at the moment is a work experience club from the near top to bottom. Even our new technical and performance advisor is doing work experience.

There is literally no one with proper experience, apart from the old useless finished players in our squad who were never leaders.

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Watching the fire, passion and fight of Simeone last night really showed me what we are missing. Its like he was playing himself, constantly shouting and guiding his players, making sure they give their all, Lamps looks like hes waiting on a bus in comparison. THey were so organized and the game plan was evident from the get go. MAn how I miss us being like that.

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14 hours ago, Mana said:

We won't be 4th anymore if we lose on Saturday. That is 100% guaranteed.

I expect to be 7th come the end of the weekend.

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14 hours ago, Mana said:

We won't be 4th anymore if we lose on Saturday. That is 100% guaranteed.

Yep I expect to be 7th come the end of the weekend and be surprised if we turn it around after that.

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13 hours ago, Mana said:

Correction: Cavani is the only big name target we could've brought in.

Lampard had a list of players that he wanted. He gotten zilch this window.

Top 4 is very important for Chelsea FC. We lose a ton of money we need for the summer by not being in it. There is no "long run" if we are failing to repair the present.

Lampard being in the last 16 of the CL gave us more money than Sarri winning the EL.

So bringing in a short term player, that boosts our chances to get top 4 is well all and fine by me then not getting anybody in and watch this team fail.

Give me a name of a player who moved in last January window that will help us. 

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18 hours ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Oh come on if you can't dominate territory against ten men then you're all kinds of shit. Having possession of the ball means fuck all if we lose out to champions league by two points it will be little comfort saying oh well at least we dominated possession against Arsenal. We should have slaughtered them bottom line is we didn't.

We dominated before we went down to ten aswell.

Ofcourse in terms of the match result it's meaningless but you can always look at game situations win, draw or lose and see potential signs going forward. For example in reverse, the 2015 title season, it was great to win the league but it was obvious to anyone with a set of eyes (or not in denial) we were close to big big trouble, and so it proved.

18 hours ago, Jason said:

I know we have had our struggles against the smaller teams this season but adding Burnley in there seems rather generous. We dominated Arsenal because they played over an hour with 10 men and even then, I hardly recalled seeing us create much from open play or Leno had to make spectacular saves. It also got all rather desperate in the end when Lampard had to throw Batshuayi in late on and not to mention, both of our goals came from set pieces (which seems to be the only way we're ever gonna score these days). 

That leaves only Spurs and Arsenal away for me. And as much as there's some good things seen during this bad run, there's also the bad things seen in this period. As games go by, the negatives are outweighing the positives and that's not a good thing.

Well considering Burnley went on to beat Leicester and United after that (not to mention only lose 1 in 4 at The Bridge under Dyche before that game) I would say it was a pretty good result and performance. The James and Callum combination especially was a really exciting part of that match.

Regarding Arsenal, look back at a post of mine around the end of January and I've sent a video link of Hudson Odoi alone creating about 4 good chances and that didn't even include his assist.

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