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Jason

14. Tiemoue Bakayoko

Started by Jason,

298 posts in this topic

It's not only the fact that he was poor against City, but his ball control is just not there. He's young and can improve, but any idea that he'd be an improvement over Matic when going forward can be put to rest.

Baka is better than Matic defensively, but considering that Kante is very strong defensively, I reckon Matic was a better fit for the squad in terms of characteristics.

All in all, I think this last window was a lot worse than I imagined by the lack of movement.

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3 hours ago, Robguima said:

It's not only the fact that he was poor against City, but his ball control is just not there. He's young and can improve, but any idea that he'd be an improvement over Matic when going forward can be put to rest.

What is that based off - the game against Man City or the few games he has played so far? He's by no means the finished article and as you alluded to, he's still young. He still has plenty of room for improvement compared to a 29-year-old. We've already seen Kante improve a lot on the ball under Conte and you can bet Bakayoko will follow the same route.

3 hours ago, Robguima said:

Baka is better than Matic defensively, but considering that Kante is very strong defensively, I reckon Matic was a better fit for the squad in terms of characteristics.

How so? Seems like you have forgotten his flaws because he's now no longer with us. Go read his thread and you'll see plenty of valid points on why Matic was by no means perfect.

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56 minutes ago, Jason said:

What is that based off - the game against Man City or the few games he has played so far? He's by no means the finished article and as you alluded to, he's still young. He still has plenty of room for improvement compared to a 29-year-old. We've already seen Kante improve a lot on the ball under Conte and you can bet Bakayoko will follow the same route.

How so? Seems like you have forgotten his flaws because he's now no longer with us. Go read his thread and you'll see plenty of valid points on why Matic was by no means perfect.

Not sure what the disagreement is on the first part of the reply: yes based on the few games he's played. I don't need a season to see how a player fares with the ball at his feet. ;)

No Matic was not perfect, but his flaws were covered by Kante; the same way Kante's somewhat hectic and uncomposed game was complemented by matic's slower and more technical handling of the ball. That's why Matic, IMO, was a better partner than Baka is at the moment. Well, I disagree with most of the "valid points" (on Matic) you are referring to, so that's a moot point to me.

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People were asking before the season started why actually loosing Matic would matter because of Bakayoko's pending arrival and after seeing his performance vs Man City a few times over, he just doesn't have the technical attributes Matic has.

Matic is no Busquets or Casemiro like I've seen his stats being compared to and also about two seasons ago I'm sure there was plenty members on here saying he was the best DM/top 5 in his position in Europe, which was ludicrous, but technically he is a  sounder operator than Bakayoko is.

I think Baka's physical side is his strongest attributes along with his ability to win the ball back at present: he is mobile, powerful, good at breaking into space, has good stamina but he just lacks that bit of composure when under pressure and that technical skill with the ball which Matic has (despite this Matic is still quite limited also) but ultimately this is what we could of done with in the middle of the park playing against City and their high energy pressing, a little bit of composure. Although again he came on against Arsenal and took the game by the scruff of the neck, so perhaps just an off day but still think he can improve how he uses and is with the ball. And teams will look to press us after seeing that match I'm sure.

Although I'm positive it will come, Bakayoko is by no means poor technically and playing every week at Chelsea against teams who will mix it up between sitting off and pressing will give him the chance to improve these aspects. I've been quite impressed at times by aspects of his performances, winning the ball back especially, some of his distribution has been good, his cameo against Arsenal was excellent and his performance against Atletico as well.

There is potential there, for somebody who could grow to a Patrick Viera-esque sort of player (although I can't imagine he will go on to be as good as him, few will), very rounded, powerful and dominant midfield player but he will have to improve.

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He has the composure of an overused gym sock, and that's been the case for his entire Monaco career it seems. It's like he plays each game on 5 shots of coffee.
The main reason I wanted Fabinho over here instead of this transfer was because of the mental game; because I'd had enough braindead Chelsea players who can't see the game 2, 3 plays from now, nevermind lacking the ability to execute the right move anyway. 

Ludicrous to even once consider comparing him to Yaya Toure, who funnily enough was far more in the ilk of Fabinho. On their best days, they both shoot very well, pass very well, run for the full 90 minutes, and top all that off with composed, leadership-like examples. But Bakayoko? I don't see what he has which Fellaini doesn't; the only differences being Fellaini has a gangly run, and he'll score every 7 or so games.

He is a good player though. Good. Good. If we just want to be good, we've done great.

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8 hours ago, Robguima said:

Not sure what the disagreement is on the first part of the reply: yes based on the few games he's played. I don't need a season to see how a player fares with the ball at his feet. 

But conclusively saying Bakayoko would be no improvement on Matic after a few games is silly.

8 hours ago, Robguima said:

No Matic was not perfect, but his flaws were covered by Kante; the same way Kante's somewhat hectic and uncomposed game was complemented by matic's slower and more technical handling of the ball. That's why Matic, IMO, was a better partner than Baka is at the moment. Well, I disagree with most of the "valid points" (on Matic) you are referring to, so that's a moot point to me.

Is it really beneficial to have a player who's slow in passing the ball and capable of using only one foot? Matic may have more technical ability than Bakayoko at this point but the latter is better at beating the pressing game. As we have seen lots of time last season, especially against Spurs, Matic doesn't fare well when being pressed and even struggles physically. Bakayoko, on the other hand, has shown on numerous occasions that he can take the ball and bulldozes his way past people, which is incredibly in driving the opposition back. It is funny that Matic's flaws in this team seem to have been forgotten now that he's no longer playing for us.

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7 hours ago, Jason said:

But conclusively saying Bakayoko would be no improvement on Matic after a few games is silly.

Is it really beneficial to have a player who's slow in passing the ball and capable of using only one foot? Matic may have more technical ability than Bakayoko at this point but the latter is better at beating the pressing game. As we have seen lots of time last season, especially against Spurs, Matic doesn't fare well when being pressed and even struggles physically. Bakayoko, on the other hand, has shown on numerous occasions that he can take the ball and bulldozes his way past people, which is incredibly in driving the opposition back. It is funny that Matic's flaws in this team seem to have been forgotten now that he's no longer playing for us.

Baka won't change his characteristics as a player anytime soon, so I do say, categorically that he is not going to be an improvement over Matic, because in my view we needed someone more technical: someone more like Fabregas, as opposed to Kante. Baka is just a more powerful (and tall) and less mobile (and skillful) kante.

We can revisit every point that "proves" Matic is a terrible player, but since I don't agree with them - and find quite silly that a player that had so many MotM performances for us, some in very tough away games, is still questioned esp about his ability to play under pressure.

I can speak for myself and am NOT impressed by Baka's technique. Would love to be proven wrong and that he himself produces many MoTM performances for us, but right now I just don't see it happening. In my opinion Matic is/was far more technical despite his flaws - some of which are overplayed around here (Diego Maradona was ridiculously one-footed:rolleyes:).

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23 minutes ago, Robguima said:

Baka won't change his characteristics as a player anytime soon, so I do say, categorically that he is not going to be an improvement over Matic, because in my view we needed someone more technical: someone more like Fabregas, as opposed to Kante. Baka is just a more powerful (and tall) and less mobile (and skillful) kante.

Bakayoko isn't going become a different player but he definitely has room to improve and become better Matic in the long run. You aren't wrong in saying we need a player like Fabregas in the team but was Matic like Fabregas? Would you even say Kante was skillful more than 12 months ago? Back then, people see him as just a ball winner but now, he can do so much more than that. Imagine some might change their perception on Bakayoko somewhere down the line.

23 minutes ago, Robguima said:

(Diego Maradona was ridiculously one-footed:rolleyes:).

Unfortunately, one was a genius and the other isn't and only has one foot to play with.

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1 hour ago, Jason said:

Bakayoko isn't going become a different player but he definitely has room to improve and become better Matic in the long run. You aren't wrong in saying we need a player like Fabregas in the team but was Matic like Fabregas? Would you even say Kante was skillful more than 12 months ago? Back then, people see him as just a ball winner but now, he can do so much more than that. Imagine some might change their perception on Bakayoko somewhere down the line.

Unfortunately, one was a genius and the other isn't and only has one foot to play with.

Kante skillful? nope... I said "more like Fabregas", and yes Matic is "more like Fabregas" than Baka is or will be in the near future in my opinion. I guess we will have just agree to disagree on this one.

Like I said the one-footed thing is completely overplayed around here...:rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, jernej93 said:

How things can change after one loss :) His game is based on stamina and Conte already stated that team was tired after tough match against Atletico ... he was superb against Spanish team and actually in all games before City. I don't know who are you kidding if you actually think that Matić would make a difference in Saturdays game. Our whole team looked tired and we lacked aggressiveness. Once again - OUR WHOLE TEAM!

You make too much sense. 

Get out of here with your logical reasoning and what not. 

We just want to be knee jerk reaction people! 

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21 hours ago, jernej93 said:

How things can change after one loss :) His game is based on stamina and Conte already stated that team was tired after tough match against Atletico ... he was superb against Spanish team and actually in all games before City. I don't know who are you kidding if you actually think that Matić would make a difference in Saturdays game. Our whole team looked tired and we lacked aggressiveness. Once again - OUR WHOLE TEAM!

It seems like you are referring to the discussion above, so could you please point out where it shows we were discussing City's game? or that I say that Matic would've made a difference in that game? Ironically, you are the one who's referred to a single match as proof of Baka's quality. ;)

I've been explicitly, and repeating myself on that, talking about team balance and mostly criticizing the board/manager for going for a player (Baka) we did not need. Had we not had Kante and Baka would've been an amazing signing.
you wrote, "His game is based on stamina", (and I'd add power) which I agree with completely and think is a problem, because the other guy in midfield is pretty much the same.

Now about the City game... if every time we have 2 matches in a week, which will happen a lot this season with CL and cups, we lack aggressiveness and play like shit, then we are not good enough. Personally I think these type of excuses are bollocks. The best team won...

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5 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

One bad game against the best team in the division (mainly due to the way Conte set up and responded with in game management) and suddenly we forget how good the partnership versus Atletico was, and now we’re also trying to romanticise how good Matic was in big games, when he wasn’t. 

This guy’s had no pre season and has still put in some very good performances, amongst one or two average to bad ones, and now we’re clamoring back for Matic. As many have told me on here - Drinkwater is Matic’s replacement, remember? If there’s anyone you want to compare Nemanja to it’ll have to be him. 

Your post is true, there are a lot of kneejerkers around here who have no common sense or ability to analyse and answer the "whys" in a rational way.. the same ones who romanticize the likes of Kalou in hindsight, while he was the worst player in the world when he was still here. But that last bit isn't true, Bakayoko is Matic's replacement (starting XI), Drinks is Chalobah's (bench).

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1 minute ago, manpe said:

Your post is true, there are a lot of kneejerkers around here who have no common sense, the same ones who romanticize the likes of Kalou while he was the worst player in the world when he was still here. But that last bit isn't true, Bakayoko is Matic's replacement (starting XI), Drinks is Chalobah's (bench).

If we look at the profiles of both players - wouldn’t you say that Baka is Chalobah’s replacement, whilst Drinkwater is more like Matic? 

Of course Baka > Chalobah and Matic > Drinkwater, but my main point really is it’s weird to compare Matic and Bakayoko and say that Matic is a better passer for example when they’ve got completely different profiles. 

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Just now, The Skipper said:

If we look at the profiles of both players - wouldn’t you say that Baka is Chalobah’s replacement, whilst Drinkwater is more like Matic? 

Not important if we look at replacements. Baka replaced Nemanja's spot and Drinks Nate's, simple as that. Comparing player profiles is a different thing, but if you asked, then I wouldn't compare Baka to any of them.. different from Matic, different from Chalobah. If I had to, I would place Baka closer to Matic though. Nate played too little for the first team to form any substantial opinion and Drinksy hasn't kicked a ball for us yet, what he did at Leicester is not important to me at this point, I need to see him in our system first.

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4 minutes ago, manpe said:

Not important if we look at replacements. Baka replaced Nemanja's spot and Drinks Nate's, simple as that. Comparing player profiles is a different thing, but if you asked, then I wouldn't compare Baka to any of them.. different from Matic, different from Chalobah. If I had to, I would place Baka closer to Matic though. Nate played too little for the first team to form any substantial opinion and Drinksy hasn't kicked a ball for us yet, what he did at Leicester is not important to me at this point, I need to see him in our system first.

Watched Nate at youth level lots, I must say that his destiny as a player is that of a profile similar to Bakayoko’s - a pretty strong, decently technical defensive midfielder. 

Drinkwater’s partnership with Kante when they won the title is quite similar to that of Matic - Kante. He’s a decent defensive CM with good passing range, so a deep lying playmaker. Similar profile to Matic. It’s a shame he’s injured but he should be back after this international break to confirm the above. 

Even Conte’s alluded to keeping Matic and Bakayoko. I think I remember him mentioning that he wanted to break Bakayoko into the team slowly, as an understudy to Matic. Thus, it isn’t inconceivable that Matic ~> Drinkwater and Chalobah ~> Bakayoko. 

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Tiemoue Bakayoko - who scored on Saturday - promised to dye his hair blue when he got his first league goal for the club. (Sun)

Get that hair dye Baka 😃😃😃

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