Tiemoue Bakayoko

[The Skipper 20,593]

14 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Spot on. Best post in this thread.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

44 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Fair enough, I agree that dribbling is a huge asset that can be used to counter the press but the thing with Baka is that even though he is a goodish dribbler, there will be plenty of instances during which he'll loose the ball trying to dribble too much or fail to dribble past the press. He is a good dribbler but is he that good a dribbler that we consistently rely on him to break the press via his dribbling against the best in Europe? I've got my doubts but if Conte thinks he's the man for our midfield then he is the man for our midfield.

[DYC. 7,542]

6 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

Fair enough, I agree that dribbling is a huge asset that can be used to counter the press but the thing with Baka is that even though he is a goodish dribbler, there will be plenty of instances during which he'll loose the ball trying to dribble too much or fail to dribble past the press. He is a good dribbler but is he that good a dribbler that we consistently rely on him to break the press via his dribbling against the best in Europe? I've got my doubts but if Conte thinks he's the man for our midfield then he is the man for our midfield.

Agree. Yes, Baka can dribble but it's not like he can skip past challenges with great poise and skill, even in the tightest spaces a la Modric. He goes on straight rushes using his athleticism and size.

If Conte signs Baka it's because he wants to shut down the centre of the pitch. Baka-Kante is a midfield duo that can cover a vast amount of space, recover possession and allow Chelsea to play with more space between the lines. Creativity and poise will have to come from the flanks so I hope in case Baka does join we'll see either Alonso and Moses, or even better both, replaced with superior players. With all due respect to PL sides like Tottenham and City but if you think facing them is difficult, Europe will be even harder. They got knocked out by Monaco and Gent (Genk?) and Arsenal were the recipients of a royal ass whooping.

Look at the midfields of the top sides in Europe. Vidal, Thiago, Xabi Alonso, Modric, Kroos, Iniesta, Busquets, Rakitic, Verratti, Motta, Rabiot, Pjanic, Marchisio. It will be interesting to see how Chelsea perform against good sides in Europe. Maybe Chelsea will become a second Atletico. I was surprised by the level reached in the current season so why not face another surprise in 17/18.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,773]

2 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Dribbling is undeniably vital but I would stop short of saying that it's more important than other parts of a player's make up when facing a press.

What is clear is that players need a full set of tools to be considered truly effective at top level. Dribbling is one of those tools for sure, and most of us seem to agree that it's a skill our squad is short on. It is not the only way to defeat the press however; it isn't even always the best way. Circumstances dictate what will be the most effective way to overcome the press but players choices are always dictated by their own capabilities. The more capable the player, the more chance he will select, and execute, the best option.

Essien, is a great example. People remember the surges with the ball but, in my opinion, tend to overlook other weaknesses in his game. I therefore have a lower opinion of the Bison than many Chelsea fans. I do not believe that our team will be at its best if Nemanja continues as first choice partner for Ngolo next season and, if there is to be a change, I hope the replacement is a better player than Ess was at his peak.*

*I recognise of course that this is just an opinion, and almost certainly a minority one to boot, but, in truth I don't believe that peak Essien was much better than any other version people might describe. Opponents sussed his limitations and exposed them. That's what happened, not any off-the-cliff-edge decline, as some believe.

[nono 791]

2 hours ago, DYC. said:

Agree. Yes, Baka can dribble but it's not like he can skip past challenges with great poise and skill, even in the tightest spaces a la Modric. He goes on straight rushes using his athleticism and size.

If Conte signs Baka, it's because he wants to shut down the centre of the pitch. Baka-Kante is a midfield duo that can cover a vast amount of space, recover possession and allow Chelsea to play with more space between the lines. Creativity and poise will have to come from the flanks so I hope in case Baka does join we'll see either Alonso and Moses, or even better both, replaced with superior players. With all due respect for PL sides like Tottenham and City but if you think facing them is difficult, Europe will be even harder. They got knocked out by Monaco and Gent (Genk?) and Arsenal were the recipients of a royal ass whooping.

Look at the midfields of the top sides in Europe. Vidal, Thiago, Xabi Alonso, Modric, Kroos, Iniesta, Busquets, Rakitic, Verratti, Motta, Rabiot, Pjanic, Marchisio. It will be interesting to see how Chelsea perform against good sides in Europe. Maybe Chelsea will become a second Atletico. I was surprised by the level reached in the current season so why not face another surprise in 17/18.

I would love for us to sign midfielder similar to the ones you mentioned at the end. That's the kind of player we need imo.

[The Skipper 20,593]

3 hours ago, nono said:

I would love for us to sign midfielder similar to the ones you mentioned at the end. That's the kind of player we need imo.

They're all very different players. Sounds like you just want a name more than anything to me?

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

On 29/03/2017 at 4:47 AM, The Skipper said:

People watch one game and that's it? Kante and Bakayoko are much better than what they showed today. Completely forgetting his performances against top teams, including one you mentioned in PSG. The way Deschamps set up his team was bad. Not utilising the talent there well at all. 

You want a technically brilliant CM who can be proactive and control the midfield. Who's available? Verratti? For what, 100m? Here's your desired CM being absolutely bossed by Bakayoko several times in the same game:

My overall point is, don't be so silly to judge a player off one game. The guy has potential, and has been showing it all season at Monaco, even in the CL, against the best in Europe. One average game.

He's not as good as you're making him out to be or you think he is and also my history in this thread shows I've watched him play several times. It depends, do we want to eat at the top table of the Champions league or what? Bakayoko is a rough diamond who could become a great player. He also lacks qualities (I believe)we need in that role, so it's not worth signing him based off of potential as it would have been if we got, say a Dahoud. It's either we sign a world class or close to world class player to partner Kante or we sign a deep-lying playmaker (who isn't a complete liability without the ball like Fabregas) in the mold of Dahoud. Unfortunately, Bakayoko is neither. 

If we sign Bakayoko as the main prospective partner to Kante, we're going to have very serious problems controlling the midfield against middling Premiership teams away from home. And let's not even talk about how we will get dominated by technically superior European teams in the CL. Is that what you want to see going forward? 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

22 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

I disagree, Toure always had great technique and was incredibly hard to disposses. It's only that at City he got more freedom to show the more expansive side of his game.

Exactly. The comparisons to Toure are so lazy and completely unwarranted. Toure had way better technique and was much more talented than Bakayoko is an almost every way. If Bakayoko was even 80% of what Toure was talent wise, I'll bite Monaco's hands off to get him. 

[nono 791]

13 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

They're all very different players. Sounds like you just want a name more than anything to me?

Yeah looking closely they are different but the list contains some midfielders who are of the type I want. I want someone who can control the game. Not box to box or dm. Someone like Alonso, Verratti and Kroos. 

[DYC. 7,542]

7 minutes ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

He's not as good as you're making him out to be or you think he is and also my history in this thread shows I've watched him play several times. It depends, do we want to eat at the top table of the Champions league or what? Bakayoko is a rough diamond who could become a great player. He also lacks qualities (I believe)we need in that role, so it's not worth signing him based off of potential as it would have been if we got, say a Dahoud. It's either we sign a world class or close to world class player to partner Kante or we sign a deep-lying playmaker (who isn't a complete liability without the ball like Fabregas) in the mold of Dahoud. Unfortunately, Bakayoko is neither. 

If we sign Bakayoko as the main prospective partner to Kante, we're going to have very serious problems controlling the midfield against middling Premiership teams away from home. And let's not even talk about how we will get dominated by technically superior European teams in the CL. Is that what you want to see going forward? 

Why? Chelsea don't struggle against those teams with Matic so why would it be different with Baka?

[The Skipper 20,593]

7 minutes ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

He's not as good as you're making him out to be or you think he is and also my history in this thread shows I've watched him play several times. It depends, do we want to eat at the top table of the Champions league or what? Bakayoko is a rough diamond who could become a great player. He also lacks qualities (I believe)we need in that role, so it's not worth signing him based off of potential as it would have been if we got, say a Dahoud. It's either we sign a world class or close to world class player to partner Kante or we sign a deep-lying playmaker (who isn't a complete liability without the ball like Fabregas) in the mold of Dahoud. Unfortunately, Bakayoko is neither. 

If we sign Bakayoko as the main prospective partner to Kante, we're going to have very serious problems controlling the midfield against middling Premiership teams away from home. And let's not even talk about how we will get dominated by technically superior European teams in the CL. Is that what you want to see going forward? 

Glad that you admit that he is a rough diamond that can turn into a great player. Fair enough. I must mention that Dahoud isn't a deep-lying playmaker, he's more of a B2B player. He's often very far up the pitch. We haven't exactly massively struggled to create against middling PL teams this season have we? And that's with Matic next to Kante as well. 

You have to take Conte's system into consideration. What does he want from his CMs?

How does having a supremely technical CM next to Kante exactly help us not to get dominated vs. the bigger European teams? If that's the case, why don't we just play Fabregas in them? If you look at the system Conte is implementing, we don't really create specifically from the middle of the park. If we did need that, he can bring in Fabregas and have him in a trio next to Kante and Bakayoko which would work very well in my opinion. Do you honestly think we won't get dominated in midfield if we have a Fabregas who's a bit more competent defensively? Doesn't work like that. 

Being a technical midfielder does not mean that you instantly get more control. You have to take the system into context. 

People need to look at Conte and see what sort of system he wants to implement. We clearly create far more in the half spaces and out wide than we do from deep in CM. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

16 minutes ago, nono said:

Yeah looking closely they are different but the list contains some midfielders who are of the type I want. I want someone who can control the game. Not box to box or dm. Someone like Alonso, Verratti and Kroos. 

Fair enough, I was like that before, but don't think a DLP works in Conte's system though.

[The Skipper 20,593]

6 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

Fair enough, I agree that dribbling is a huge asset that can be used to counter the press but the thing with Baka is that even though he is a goodish dribbler, there will be plenty of instances during which he'll loose the ball trying to dribble too much or fail to dribble past the press. He is a good dribbler but is he that good a dribbler that we consistently rely on him to break the press via his dribbling against the best in Europe? I've got my doubts but if Conte thinks he's the man for our midfield then he is the man for our midfield.

He averages 1.2 dispossessions this season which is quite low for a CM so, I do think you're underrating him in that aspect. He's very good at shielding the ball, uses his body well in that aspect, so he doesn't often lose the ball.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

18 minutes ago, DYC. said:

Why? Chelsea don't struggle against those teams with Matic so why would it be different with Baka?

We definitely struggle away from home in the midfield. I remember us getting dominated in midfield by our next opponents in the reverse fixture for instance. Watch some of the top European teams and they all have technically gifted players in their midfield and they dominate the tempo of the game. The only time I feel we do this is at Stamford Bridge. 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

17 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

Glad that you admit that he is a rough diamond that can turn into a great player. Fair enough. I must mention that Dahoud isn't a deep-lying playmaker, he's more of a B2B player. He's often very far up the pitch. We haven't exactly massively struggled to create against middling PL teams this season have we? And that's with Matic next to Kante as well. 

You have to take Conte's system into consideration. What does he want from his CMs?

How does having a supremely technical CM next to Kante exactly help us not to get dominated vs. the bigger European teams? If that's the case, why don't we just play Fabregas in them? If you look at the system Conte is implementing, we don't really create specifically from the middle of the park. If we did need that, he can bring in Fabregas and have him in a trio next to Kante and Bakayoko which would work very well in my opinion. Do you honestly think we won't get dominated in midfield if we have a Fabregas who's a bit more competent defensively? Doesn't work like that. 

Being a technical midfielder does not mean that you instantly get more control. You have to take the system into context. 

People need to look at Conte and see what sort of system he wants to implement. We clearly create far more in the half spaces and out wide than we do from deep in CM. 

Dahoud is a bit of both really. I don't think I can call him a box to box midfielder (that term has lost its original meaning). I think it's best to call him a central midfielder. 

You have to take Conte's system into consideration. What does he want from his CMs?

I do take Conte's system into consideration of course. But when I see rumours (and I presume they are slightly more than that) of links to Verratti and Dahoud, it leads to believe Conte is slightly more flexible in the qualities he's looking for in Kante's next partner.

How does having a supremely technical CM next to Kante exactly help us not to get dominated vs. the bigger European teams? If that's the case, why don't we just play Fabregas in them?

I'm not sure the point you're making here. The reason why Fabregas doesn't play is because he a has next to zero footballing engine and is constantly cut out by opposition runners in midfield. He just doesn't have the physical attributes to keep up. Dahoud has the engine and the technique? How will that help us? It will certainly help with quicker ball circulation, ability to spot passes quicker and execute them, improve counter attacks, improve our ability to build attacks from the back (when say, Dahoud drops deep like I've seen him do many times Fabregas is terrible this). You're literally asking what benefits does a Kroos/Koke type player have over a Nzonzi/Kondogbia type player? I think it's obvious.

I just feel we don't need what is effectively a defensive midfielder with Kante already there. If Kante is as brilliant as everyone says he is, then we can be a bit more ambitious in choosing his partner? 

People need to look at Conte and see what sort of system he wants to implement. We clearly create far more in the half spaces and out wide than we do from deep in CM.

It has nothing to do with creation but control. We can't pass the ball out of the back vs a good press as some of the top teams have shown. We've struggled to control the midfield away from home in far too many games for my liking since November, becoming a bit of a counter-attacking team. We've invariably won thanks to our superior quality and defending. 

 

 

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Sorry but I don't rate this guy. We need to pair Kante with an athletic version of Fabregas.

[blu35_army 550]

if it's true in conte's system he need a worldclass (or even) good deep lying midfielder, the option is only Verratti or Thiago Alcantara. but,,can we get them???

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[nyikolajevics 2,420]

59 minutes ago, Gilvorak said:

Sorry but I don't rate this guy. We need to pair Matic with an athletic version of Fabregas.

We need to pair Kanté with someone, not Matic. We'll buy someone instead of Matic IMO.

 

37 minutes ago, blu35_army said:

if it's true in conte's system he need a worldclass (or even) good deep lying midfielder, the option is only Verratti or Thiago Alcantara. but,,can we get them???


 

I think we need a destroyer, not a playmaker. Fábregas is an amazing player, still he hardly ever plays, while Matic who is clumsy as fuck is a starter.  

 

Hazard, Costa and Pedro are all out on attack, Moses and Alonso attack a lot too, our central midfielders must serve the stability.