Nathaniel Chalobah

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@Choulo19 really don’t mean to single you out! To be fair to Choulo he did warm up to Van Ginkel afterwards.

But my point is, just because some tend to glorify youth and be too eager to want them to play in the first team, doesn't legitimize being overly critical of youth talent and being overly pessimistic and dismissive about their chances of playing for a top club and you, @TorontoChelsea, seem to be prescribing to that notion.

"And yes, players need to prove themselves at a top level before being penciled in for regular playing time on a side like Chelsea. that's just the way top teams work" - except top teams in PL have already given apps to less experienced and proven youngsters than Nathaniel? Yes, yes...I know."I'm wrong", right?

I don't get what exactly is your point by taking that post out of context? You didn't even quote the whole post:

Van Ginkel's passing has been terrible in both games. Fist he's very slow at it and often needs an extra touch or two before releasing the ball. Second, his technique is awful, meaning even when he does make the pass it is often either behind the player or difficult for him to control; meaning the receiver often has to take an extra touch which also slows down the play. Moreover, his vision is bad; he seems only to be able to make the 'obvious' pass and when a defender blocks that angle he looks unsure what to do and often goes back to defense. And finally, he seems to struggle with passes more than 15-20 meters away and often misplaces them.

It's still way too early and I'm not passing judgement, but I have not yet seen how Van Ginkel is good at everything else.

I was talking about his first two games in preseason where he did have bad games and did the things I said. I had rarely seen him with Vitesse and was giving my opinion on those two games. Starting from the third game he picked up his passing game which was way off in the first two and I said so:

Sooo much better today. His movement was excellent and his passing was good. Maybe because 4-3-3 feels more natural to him? Or maybe because he's starting to gel more with the team? I don't know. I just hope to see more of this kind of performances. :cfc:

In any case Marco is well ahead of Nathanial in terms of ability and development. And to answer the last point you made in that post, tell me, what TOP PL team has has made a young player a regular in their team before a PL loan or at least a few champion ship loans?

[The only place to be 11,313]

In any case Marco is well ahead of Nathanial in terms of ability and development.

I had rarely seen him with Vitesse

Must've made a real impression in his games for Chelsea then.

Can you pick a defining moment from his 97 minutes of match time that made you realise he's 'well ahead of Nat'?

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Have to say it though, have followed Vitesse quite well last season and a bit of Watford too, and Marco is head and shoulders above Chalobah. No comparison, Chalobah still needs time. Marco wasn't loaned out for that reason. Don't know what the debate is about, but just making a point about who is more developed.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Have to say it though, have followed Vitesse quite well last season and a bit of Watford too, and Marco is head and shoulders above Chalobah. No comparison, Chalobah still needs time. Marco wasn't loaned out for that reason. Don't know what the debate is about, but just making a point about who is more developed.

I disagree having watched both teams and spoken to fans of both teams, as well as people at this club. To say he's 'head and shoulders' above Nat is very unfair to Nat and seems a little 'boot-licky' (not for the first time either).

They're different players and both have a lot of quality, but on the ball I still think Nat is a far more composed presence. Marco can look a little skittish at times and even in his limited game time for us he looked uneasy and nervous. It's a shame he didn't get a chance to bed in because he would've improved in my view, but Nat has never really had that until this season. He's always looked eminently comfortable in any situation and I don't see a single reason why this wouldn't be the same at this club.

People talk about him needing time to develop but refuse to go into specifics. It's not like he's a Josh who needs to add workrate and physicality to his game, and it's not like he's a Todd Kane who needs to add a bit of quality on the ball. Mentally he's always been a cut above those around him and he emerged as a leader at Watford last season (which is astounding for an 18 year old).

To say he isn't 'developed' enough is such a cop out.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I disagree having watched both teams and spoken to fans of both teams, as well as people at this club. To say he's 'head and shoulders' above Nat is very unfair to Nat and seems a little 'boot-licky' (not for the first time either).

They're different players and both have a lot of quality, but on the ball I still think Nat is a far more composed presence. Marco can look a little skittish at times and even in his limited game time for us he looked uneasy and nervous. It's a shame he didn't get a chance to bed in because he would've improved in my view, but Nat has never really had that until this season. He's always looked eminently comfortable in any situation and I don't see a single reason why this wouldn't be the same at this club.

People talk about him needing time to develop but refuse to go into specifics. It's not like he's a Josh who needs to add workrate and physicality to his game, and it's not like he's a Todd Kane who needs to add a bit of quality on the ball. Mentally he's always been a cut above those around him and he emerged as a leader at Watford last season (which is astounding for an 18 year old).

To say he isn't 'developed' enough is such a cop out.

i disagree on the fact that Marco isn't composed. One can't judge him on the time he has played here, which is so little. I'm not saying anything about whether Chalobah can fit in here at Chels or not. That's another debate, not really concerned about it. as long as I'm 'boot licky' and not a part-time 'provoke specialist' .

In a whole Marco when it comes to tactical aptitude is better than Chalobah has been. Able to fit in with different midfield partners and different system's that the assistant manager seems to employ.

Once again, I'm only talking about right now, and for me Marco at Vitesse has been much better than Chalobah at wherever he has been on loan. That doesn't mean either of them can't develop into something better in the future. For all fate knows, Chalobah could end up much better than Marco. But as of now, my opinion is very different.

And didn't say he isn't developed enough. But when you compare the development between the two, taking various factors such as fitness, work-rate, tactical aptitude (which is one of the biggest reasons), technical ability etc, is better than what Nat possesses. For now.

[The only place to be 11,313]

And didn't say he isn't developed enough. But when you compare the development between the two, taking various factors such as fitness, work-rate, tactical aptitude (which is one of the biggest reasons), technical ability etc, is better than what Nat possesses. For now.

I've seen Nat change roles in matches and do them equally well. At Watford he would go from a purely holding midfielder to a box-to-box presence and be equally effective, so I've never had cause to question his tactical aptitude. Technically I'd actually say that Nat is vastly underrated. His passing ability is very good, his close control excellent and I've even seen him do a job as a number 10 albeit in the youth ranks. His levels of fitness were prodigious in the youth-ranks as well, and he coped well in his first full season when he was playing virtually every match, so again I'm not entirely sure what you're basing these criticisms on.

i disagree on the fact that Marco isn't composed. One can't judge him on the time he has played here, which is so little. I'm not saying anything about whether Chalobah can fit in here at Chels or not. That's another debate, not really concerned about it. as long as I'm 'boot licky' and not a part-time 'provoke specialist' .

If you're comfortable with that role then that's fine - lord knows your friend needs help fighting his battles. Being a provocateur seems eminently more entertaining than licking shit to me.

In a whole Marco when it comes to tactical aptitude is better than Chalobah has been. Able to fit in with different midfield partners and different system's that the assistant manager seems to employ.

Think I've already addressed this. Another point is that Nat is equally comfortable in defence and coming from that position probably has a different appreciation for the work he does in midfield. We're talking about two players who could form a formidable and complimentary partnership in years to come with Nat as our Javi Martinez and Marco as our Bastien.

Once again, I'm only talking about right now, and for me Marco at Vitesse has been much better than Chalobah at wherever he has been on loan.

Watford - it's a small place on the outskirts of Northern England.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I've seen Nat change roles in matches and do them equally well. At Watford he would go from a purely holding midfielder to a box-to-box presence and be equally effective, so I've never had cause to question his tactical aptitude. Technically I'd actually say that Nat is vastly underrated. His passing ability is very good, his close control excellent and I've even seen him do a job as a number 10 albeit in the youth ranks. His levels of fitness were prodigious in the youth-ranks as well, and he coped well in his first full season when he was playing virtually every match, so again I'm not entirely sure what you're basing these criticisms on.

Changing roles isn't tactical aptitude. That's called versatility. A whole different term. Vittese went from experiment with a false 9, to using wing-backs, to causing central overloads in defensive transitions. All of which had a direct effect on the two midfielders. But when it comes to versatility, Marco has played as a holding, very little as a defensive and also as a DLP ( the phase in which he grabbed a few goals and got compared to Gerrard and Lampard). Watford haven't shuffled around their system, mostly because Zola still wasn't sure throughout the campaign about how he wanted his players to perform. Midway through, he was decided.

The point is tactical aptitude is different to playing in different zones of the field.

Once again. Completely missing my point. I'm not saying Nat's technical ability sucks, my point is Marco's is better. Just cause I say Messi is better than Ronaldo at lobbing the ball, doesn't mean Ronaldo is jackshit at lobbing. Not once have I criticized Nat. Just cause I say Falcao is better than Cavani, doesn't mean I'm criticising Cavani. Just means that Falcao is better than Cavani at what he does.

If you're comfortable with that role then that's fine - lord knows your friend needs help fighting his battles. Being a provocateur seems eminently more entertaining than licking shit to me.

Ah yes I'm the one entertaining the members of the forum here ! Fine by me. :tophat:

Think I've already addressed this. Another point is that Nat is equally comfortable in defence and coming from that position probably has a different appreciation for the work he does in midfield. We're talking about two players who could form a formidable and complimentary partnership in years to come with Nat as our Javi Martinez and Marco as our Bastien.

This I agree. Only reason I don't want us to get another player in the middle. Promote Nat next season, and use him Marco and Rami next season. Mikel and Lampard to come in when needed.

Watford - it's a small place on the outskirts of Northern England.

Come on mate, we all know its a town. Calling it a small place isn't that polite. Plus more like north-west.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Ah yes I'm the one entertaining the members of the forum here ! Fine by me. :tophat:

Actually I was suggesting you were sucking up to a particular member, and not for the first time. But if that's what you wanna do then I won't stop you.

Changing roles isn't tactical aptitude. That's called versatility. A whole different term.

If you want tactical aptitude then look at what Nat's been through at our academy, going from different play styles to different formations. Personally I've never seen any cause for concern with his 'tactical aptitude' or his 'versatility'. In fact he's always been commended for his 'footballing intelligence' and mental application to the game. It's what marked him out from others at most stages of his development.

Either way I think nitpicking between Nat and Marco's ability is just that. It's frivolous and hardly complimentary to a player who is roughly two years Nat's senior.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Actually I was suggesting you were sucking up to a particular member, and not for the first time. But if that's what you wanna do then I won't stop you.

And you with the frequent complaining. but hey if that's what you wanna do then I won't stop you.

If you want tactical aptitude then look at what Nat's been through at our academy, going from different play styles to different formations. Personally I've never seen any cause for concern with his 'tactical aptitude' or his 'versatility'. In fact he's always been commended for his 'footballing intelligence' and mental application to the game. It's what marked him out from others at most stages of his development. Either way I think nitpicking between Nat and Marco's ability is just that. It's frivolous and hardly complimentary to a player who is roughly two years Nat's senior.

In a sense true. But Adi Viveash has stuck to a very stringent system. Unlike other clubs where the main team and the sub divisions play exactly the same type of football, Chelsea doesn't. Once again you are confusing relative terms. I've never said that Nat has 0 tactical aptitude. He is been brilliant in his own way. In comparison with Marco, for me, he falls just a lil short.

Not really. Age is merely a number in the sense that ability wise a younger player could have much better ability than a player older to him.

[lionsden 4,689]

100's of pages worth of discussion about youth development and no one has yet come up with the definition of readiness and how to determine when the time is right. To the Youth snubs on this forum, is there a set criteria that must be met in order to assess the worthiness of promising youth for first team football. 100 plus app at championship level?, 60 plus apps at epl level?, winning (multiple) prestigious individual awards, jogging from the north pole to the south pole without breaking a sweat? walking on water?. which one is it.

[dee25 1,044]

But why???? What benefit is there bringing back Chalobah so he can play in 5 games in the season? Is it really so important to have Chalobah on the team that you're willing to stunt his development? Even if he were ready, and he's clearly not, young players need game time. What is clear is that he needs more development time. Bringing him back to Chelsea is not good for Chelsea, it's not good for Chalobah. So why do it? So fans can get to salivate over a player's potential in League Cup games? It's pointless.

He hasn't even been recalled and you've already determined that he'll play in 5 games? Nathan Ake, without being loaned out made 3 appearances last season. You're telling me that Chalobah who made 38 appearances last season and scored 5 goals won't manage significantly more than that?

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Van GInkel has proven alot more than Chalobah has so far in his career but you see him running his bollocks off to close players down, block shots and win tackles.

Chalobah struts about the pitch as if he's won the treble already. That's not going to endear him to his fans and Mourinho won't even give him a second look if he carries on like that. I'm not saying his poor spell at Forest is of any indication of his ability but he needs a change in attitude.

McEachran on the other hand has all the talent in the World but is physically weak and is somewhat of a mental midget. He isn't going to make it here I'm afraid, Chalobah still has a chance with Lampard on the wane, MVG out for the season and Essien sadly being finished.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Chalobah struts about the pitch as if he's won the treble already.

Utter, irredeemable bollocks.

62 pages and we've run out of things to say, so now we're commenting on the way a player moves around the pitch? Ravel Morrison popped his collar up the other day, so be careful you don't see an image of that or your delicate sensibilities may well be offended.

Nat doesn't spend his matches running around at full speed like a headless chicken. He's not a midfield engine like Ramires, but not all players need to be. Some have a reading of the game that means they don't have to play catch-up with the play around them and that's what Nat has always had. Suggesting he 'struts' around the pitch and this is indicative of his attitude to the game is utterly without merit though.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

He hasn't even been recalled and you've already determined that he'll play in 5 games? Nathan Ake, without being loaned out made 3 appearances last season. You're telling me that Chalobah who made 38 appearances last season and scored 5 goals won't manage significantly more than that?

Yes, I am. He'd pretty much play the Ake role which is to play in a handful of meaningless games to give players a rest. Maybe he'd play 5 maybe he'd play 10 but he wouldn't get regular playing time that's a certainty. The post I responded to was talking about replacing Essien in the lineup. How many games is Essien going to get into? 10? You think a player who is struggling in the Championship is going to come to Chelsea and play 25 games the rest of the season? He wouldn't get that if he stayed at Forest where he's played four games so far. There are people who are overrating his readiness and then people who are insanely overrating his readiness. You want Chalobah to come back and take over the Essien role? I think it's bad for his development but he could most likely do it. I think you want to rush him. You want Chalobah to come back and get regular playing time? You're delusional.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Nottingham Forest have released the following statement on behalf of Nathaniel Chalobah following an alleged incident during last night’s match at Millwall.

At half-time, the on-loan Chelsea midfielder told Forest’s deputy manager Ned Kelly that he believed he was subjected to racist chanting from a section of the home support in the first half.

The 18 year old, who claims to have been initially subject to verbal abuse from the same section after receiving treatment for an injury in the opening minutes, was upset by the alleged abuse and struggled to keep his concentration during the interval as a result.

Nottingham Forest treat any incident of this nature extremely seriously and will be liaising closely with the relevant authorities in their investigation of this issue. Both clubs are in communication regarding the alleged incident and hope to uncover the truth as quickly as possible for all concerned parties.

Read more at http://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/article/statement-regarding-nathaniel-chalobah-1215870.aspx#zCYFPSHvQbw6ZODM.99

Some rumors going around Twitter that he won't continue his loan at Forrest as a result. Should know more about this in the next couple of days.

[dee25 1,044]

The post I responded to was talking about replacing Essien in the lineup. How many games is Essien going to get into? 10? You think a player who is struggling in the Championship is going to come to Chelsea and play 25 games the rest of the season? He wouldn't get that if he stayed at Forest where he's played four games so far. There are people who are overrating his readiness and then people who are insanely overrating his readiness.

I think people make the mistake in thinking that playing time is the only thing that can stunt the development of youth. It's possible that playing in 10 matches at Chelsea might make more of a mark or an impact in the development of a young player than making 25 appearances at some random championship club. You're pretty much following a one size fits all formula. I see that as problematic.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Nottingham Forest have released the following statement on behalf of Nathaniel Chalobah following an alleged incident during last night’s match at Millwall.

At half-time, the on-loan Chelsea midfielder told Forest’s deputy manager Ned Kelly that he believed he was subjected to racist chanting from a section of the home support in the first half.

The 18 year old, who claims to have been initially subject to verbal abuse from the same section after receiving treatment for an injury in the opening minutes, was upset by the alleged abuse and struggled to keep his concentration during the interval as a result.

Nottingham Forest treat any incident of this nature extremely seriously and will be liaising closely with the relevant authorities in their investigation of this issue. Both clubs are in communication regarding the alleged incident and hope to uncover the truth as quickly as possible for all concerned parties.

Read more at http://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/article/statement-regarding-nathaniel-chalobah-1215870.aspx#zCYFPSHvQbw6ZODM.99

Some rumors going around Twitter that he won't continue his loan at Forrest as a result. Should know more about this in the next couple of days.

Heard about this. Dire. Millwall fans are the scum of the earth.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It's his birthday today. Happy 19th.