Mikel John Obi

[manpe 10,861]

12 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

Had completely forgotten about him, but this is nice to read:

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2016/10/25/13402196/john-obi-mikel-chelsea-west-ham-league-cup-antonio-conte-interview-quotes

 

Whatever we say about him, his attitude has always been top notch and is one of the good guys. Been a loyal and useful servant all these years. Still remember the young Mikel who we nicked right under SAF's nose, it seemed like he used to get booked or suspended every other game  Shame he couldn't keep some of that aggression in his later career, has become far too mellow to be a major player.

[robsblubot 3,502]

20 hours ago, manpe said:

Whatever we say about him, his attitude has always been top notch and is one of the good guys. Been a loyal and useful servant all these years. Still remember the young Mikel who we nicked right under SAF's nose, it seemed like he used to get booked or suspended every other game  Shame he couldn't keep some of that aggression in his later career, has become far too mellow to be a major player.

interesting... IMO you contradicted yourself in the post above.

I have a hard time imagining any (like you call) 'major player' having mikel's attitude towards playing time and role: being a nice mellow guy who's not competitive (even within the squad) automatically makes him not good enough for a top club. Football is nothing but competition: you compete to get playing time; for better agent and contract; you compete for possession; you compete for yards (with and without possession), and once your are big enough you compete for media attention too.

In terms of attitude alone, and keeping within Nigeria NT, I respect Moses' attitude a lot more than Mikel's. Moses does his thing quiet and keeps on improving. Has obviously been hitting the gym and bulking up. He's now back as a starter at the right time in his career and I sure respect that.

Note that not respecting the player has nothing to do with respecting the human being. I've actually found that most of the absolute top players are rarely nice guys or even respectful human beings - they are just that good at kicking a fucking ball and that's pretty much all there is to it.

[manpe 10,861]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

interesting... IMO you contradicted yourself in the post above.

I have a hard time imagining any (like you call) 'major player' having mikel's attitude towards playing time and role: being a nice mellow guy who's not competitive (even within the squad) automatically makes him not good enough for a top club. Football is nothing but competition: you compete to get playing time; for better agent and contract; you compete for possession; you compete for yards (with and without possession), and once your are big enough you compete for media attention too.

How did I contradict myself? That's what I said, he's too mellow to be a major player, and rightfully so he isn't.

[robsblubot 3,502]

well it's a matter of opinion, but you said "his attitude has always been top notch" and then at the same time you say that he is nice and mellow, but wish he weren't (had retained some of the lost aggression).

Well, for me, the way for him to be better player would be to change his attitude. So, all this praising his attitude for not being competitive and collecting his fat paycheck at the end of the month is just crazy talk.

(btw I do not think the attitude is the sole problem here - just don't agree with praising a non competitive attitude in a very competitive profession)

 

[manpe 10,861]

23 minutes ago, Robguima said:

well it's a matter of opinion, but you said "his attitude has always been top notch" and then at the same time you say that he is nice and mellow, but wish he weren't (had retained some of the lost aggression).

Well, for me, the way for him to be better player would be to change his attitude. So, all this praising his attitude for not being competitive and collecting his fat paycheck at the end of the month is just crazy talk.

(btw I do not think the attitude is the sole problem here - just don't agree with praising a non competitive attitude in a very competitive profession)

 

I separate attitude towards his job and playing skills on the pitch (aggression). Not the same things for me. You can then also say his attitude towards passing and quickness is crap, but I still categorize that under playing skills, which I agree are lacking.

Paulo Ferreira also never was very competitive, but he was universally recognized as having great attitude and being a useful player. It doesn't mean they lack ambition or whatever. Mikel even said he wants to fight his way back to the team, but as this is obviously not happening I believe he will finally move on in January/summer.

[robsblubot 3,502]

6 minutes ago, manpe said:

I separate attitude towards his job and playing skills on the pitch (aggression). Not the same things for me.

yeah I got that and disagree.

So, even if you say that being nice, say Kante seems nice, and professional does not equate to aggression and competitiveness, can you imagine Kante displaying the same willingness to stay at the club - were he in the same situation as Mikel is or has been? Or JT a few years ago when he was still a top player. These top player are VERY competitive - they will not settle for anything less than an important role.

BTW, I'm fairly certain Mikel has been told to leave and I am not sure he will (before his contract runs out).

[manpe 10,861]

5 minutes ago, Robguima said:

yeah I got that and disagree.

So, even if you say that being nice, say Kante seems nice, and professional does not equate to aggression and competitiveness, can you imagine Kante displaying the same willingness to stay at the club - were he in the same situation as Mikel is or has been? Or JT a few years ago when he was still a top player. These top player are VERY competitive - they will not settle for anything less than an important role.

BTW, I'm fairly certainly Mikel has been told to leave and I am not sure he will (before his contract runs out).

Top players wouldn't accept that, never said he was a top player, but he knows his limitations and is loyal enough to have accepted an in-and-out role. A squad cannot comprise only of top players who will throw their toys out of pram when they are benched, you cannot have a balanced squad without the Moseses, Mikels, Ferreiras etc. You automatically assume they simply don't care, are greedy and only want to milk money, but I base my judgement on what they say and do. Nothing Mikel has done or said makes me believe he is the next Bogarde. I choose to compliment and support our player in his decisions when it doesn't harm the club.

[robsblubot 3,502]

24 minutes ago, manpe said:

Top players wouldn't accept that, never said he was a top player, but he knows his limitations and is loyal enough to have accepted an in-and-out role. A squad cannot comprise only of top players who will throw their toys out of pram when they are benched, you cannot have a balanced squad without the Moseses, Mikels, Ferreiras etc. You automatically assume they simply don't care, are greedy and only want to milk money, but I base my judgement on what they say and do. Nothing Mikel has done or said makes me believe he is the next Bogarde. I choose to compliment and support our player in his decisions when it doesn't harm the club.

fair enough

no the other top teams are not exclusively comprised of demanding superstars, neither do they have any player as passive and comfortable as mikel.

That's where we mostly disagree: I think mikel is very greedy. I think he only cares about money and that's the only reason he's stayed. Now if you believe player love clubs, I'm not going to stop you.

I do not base my judgment on what they say whatsoever. Most of it is very well thought out, often with the blessing of the club and most certainly input from their agent. What is he supposed to say? I wish I could play more, but no other club will give me 75K a week, so I rather sit on the bench or not even that, than play in a smaller club for far lower wages - have you seriously ever heard a player say anything like this?  

[manpe 10,861]

27 minutes ago, Robguima said:

fair enough

no the other top teams are not exclusively comprised of demanding superstars, neither do they have any player as passive and comfortable as mikel.

That's the key where we most disagree: I think mikel is very greedy. I think he only cares about money and that's the only reason he's stayed. Now if you believe player love clubs, I'm not going to stop you.

I do not base my judgment on what they say whatsoever. Most of it is very well thought out, often with the blessing of the club and most certainly input from their agent. What is he supposed to say? I wish I could play more, but no other club will give me 75K a week, so I rather sit on the bench or not even that, than play in a smaller club for far lower wages - have you seriously ever heard a player say anything like this?  

You have all the right in the world to believe he is a greedy cunt and you COULD be right, but it is all only speculation and shall I say a bit prejudiced? I try to base my judgements on more substantial evidence. In fact I've heard about him doing good things with his money in Nigeria.

If he was such a nuisance to the club, then they would have no problem ostracizing and forcing him out like they did with Bogarde, Malouda and I think also Anelka and Alex? Mourinho did that to Schweinsteiger for unknown reasons and he's not a worse footballer than Mikel. I haven't seen anybody saying or hinting anything bad about him, people who have actually worked with him. I don't recall any controversies and scandals surrounding him either, I believe he's a decent man the way he comes across, just not a very gifted footballer. He's survived every manager who all have found a way to utilize him. The club has extended his contract several times and it's not because everybody in the club hates him and wants him out. Maybe they do now and I believe he will go.

[robsblubot 3,502]

13 minutes ago, manpe said:

You have all the right in the world to believe he is a greedy cunt and you COULD be right, but it is all only speculation and shall I say a bit prejudiced? I try to base my judgements on more substantial evidence. In fact I've heard about him doing good things with his money in Nigeria.

If he was such a nuisance to the club, then they would have no problem ostracizing and forcing him out like they did with Bogarde, Malouda and I think also Anelka and Alex? Mourinho did that to Schweinsteiger for unknown reasons and he's not a worse footballer than Mikel. I haven't seen anybody saying or hinting anything bad about him, people who have actually worked with him. I don't recall any controversies and scandals surrounding him either, I believe he's a decent man the way he comes across, just not a very gifted footballer. He's survived every manager who all have found a way to utilize him. The club has extended his contract several times and it's not because everybody in the club hates him and wants him out. Maybe they do now and I believe he will go.

you see you are linking being greedy with being bad or unprofessional and I think it could be exactly the other way around.

He may be a good person, help others (I also think he does), and in order to do that (having that in the back of his mind) he chooses money over playing time.

(not going into the technical aspects as we've been there before a few thousand times :))

[manpe 10,861]

16 minutes ago, Robguima said:

you see you are linking being greedy with being bad or unprofessional and I think it could be exactly the other way around.

He may be a good person, help others (I also think he does), and in order to do that (having that in the back of his mind) he chooses money over playing time.

(not going into the technical aspects as we've been there before a few thousand times :))

We are all greedy to an extent. Most people in the world will say that they prefer the employer with the highest salary unless the working conditions are horrible, doesn't mean they think only about money, we just want the best possible conditions for survival and habitat. Generally speaking criticizing people for choosing the highest pay is hypocritical unless you totally exclude that from your decision making. You can make a point that footballers live in a different world, but truth is that the thought processes are the same, we are all human and are conditioned to living in relation to our social status and class, it is just different for millionaires from the class we are accustomed to. Question is if you are evil-greedy (resulting in harm to others) or normal-greedy (no harm to others)  I have no problems with the latter. Hell, if Mikel's greed brings good to the less fortunate, then more power to him!

Anyway, it seems the discussion over Mikel has dried out, I'm not interested in going philosophical over greed, money and all that. You might have a point and I respect that, I simply think you may be unfair towards him.

[robsblubot 3,502]

18 minutes ago, manpe said:

We are all greedy to an extent. Most people in the world will say that they prefer the employer with the highest salary unless the working conditions are horrible, doesn't mean they think only about money. Generally speaking criticizing people for choosing the highest pay is hypocritical unless you totally exclude that from your decision making. You can make a point that footballers live in a different world, but truth is that the thought processes are the same, we are all human and are conditioned to living in relation to our social status and class, it is just different for millionaires from the class we are accustomed to. Question is if you are evil-greedy or normal-greedy  Anyway, it seems the discussion over Mikel has dried out, I'm not interested in going philosophical over greed, money and all that. You may have a point and I respect that, I simply think you are too aggressive in your stances.

Yeah my original point wasn't even so much about greed, but merely how lack of ambition is not healthy in the extremely competitive business of professional football and at the highest level at that.

Concerning my aggressiveness, perhaps I've been able to "keep some of that aggression in my late life" - ironic.

[manpe 10,861]

2 minutes ago, Robguima said:

Yeah my original point wasn't even so much about green, but merely how lack of ambition is not health in the extremely competitive business of professional football and at the highest level at that.

Concerning my aggressiveness, perhaps I've been able to "keep some of that aggression in my late life" - ironic.

FYI I tend to edit my posts several times after posting, it's like an OCD I can't help it. You might want to reread some of them, I've corrected some wordings to better reflect what I was thinking.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

He should have come out and called the manager, the board and everyone at the club twats instead!  

[robsblubot 3,502]

10 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

He should have come out and called the manager, the board and everyone at the club twats instead!  

No, he couldn't and he wouldn't and that was exactly my point before: this is just PR

[manpe 10,861]

1 minute ago, Robguima said:

No, he couldn't and he wouldn't and that was exactly my point before: this is just PR

Speculation.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

4 minutes ago, Robguima said:

No, he couldn't and he wouldn't and that was exactly my point before: this is just PR

Yeah, obviously because the Mikel brand is HUGE around the world and needs to be maintained!

No, it was a nice-guy reply and it was just nice to read a grounded (in many ways old-school) reply rather than the usual diva attitudes that most players at this level tend to have nowadays. 

[robsblubot 3,502]

9 minutes ago, manpe said:

Speculation.

Perhaps but in my view I am the non-believer and others are the ones speculating - believing words at face value when a lot if at stake.

Does he employ an agent? Isn't part of his agent's job help with what he say or not to the press? Is this speculation or I am basing my opinion on something I know agents are involved in? Does he run everything he says by the club also? I don't know but he might. Wouldn't surprise me.

Have you ever refrained yourself from saying something about your employer or employer's customer, just because it wasn't proper even if true? Happens all the fucking time.

@CHOULO19 are you kidding me?! his agent won't ever stop chatting with the press.