Timo Werner

[Jase 43,479]

15 minutes ago, Azul said:

Can you back it up with stats of the amount of chances that were created for him last season compared to this season? I'm pretty sure it's not far off. 

Don't think this is exactly what you're looking for but last season, Werner had 117 shots and scored 28 league goals from an xG of 22.3. For context, Lewandowski scored 34 league goals from 134 shots and an xG of 27.5 last season.

This season, Werner has had 62 shots and scored 5 league goals from an xG of 9.8. 

[Jase 43,479]

8 minutes ago, Azul said:

I find it surprising that you act like he hasn't been like this for atleast for 4 months. When I was criticising him, you were literally crucifying me for stating the obvious. Now after this miss, which looks normal to some of the misses he had this season, you turn around and do a 180😂

He's not a trainweck, because of this miss alone, but the enormous amount of misses he had before this. Do you now agree that Pulisic or CHO need a run of games on the left instead of Werner?👀

Were we not mainly arguing about his performances? His performances of late aren't exactly the issue. It's the finishing.

He has had shocking misses but they weren't happening every game. But the longer he goes on without getting back into some kind of goalscoring form, the more he misses chances like today, then even I have to go "WTF TIMO!?" because there's no way one can defend that. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,376]

7 minutes ago, Azul said:

I disagree because he's missed an abnormal amount of chances of this season. My mate who literally watches Bundesliga week in week out is texting and saying that this is ridiculous even for his standards. Are you saying that he's not suited to the prem and you knew this all along? If so why have you been defending while I was criticising him?

Furthermore do you disagree that the way he's playing is a result of his confidence and not our playstyle? The reason why I'm asking this, because I think that you're undermining the importance of mental fortitude in football. Morata touched on the topic by stating that he needed a sports psychologist in order to succeed at Chelsea.

What are you actually disagreeing with here? I'm saying Werner is scoring less goals in England than in Germany because the latter had an environment where he strived in (counter attacking league) and the team was built around him. He's gotten a significantly less amount of shots this season compared to last because A, the premier league is a relatively low block league, and B, the team isn't built around him. He was already notoriously known for missing chances in Germany. You reduce the number of attempts he has on goal, he's going to look even worse. 

All of this is hindsight. If I knew this all along I would've been skeptical about this signing. What's a sport Psychologist have to do with Werner when Werner lacks some of the basic principles of finesse in the box? 

 

 

 

 

[Azul 1,615]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Don't think this is exactly what you're looking for but last season, Werner had 117 shots and scored 28 league goals from an xG of 22.3. For context, Lewandowski scored 34 league goals from 134 shots and an xG of 27.5 last season.

This season, Werner has had 62 shots and scored 5 league goals from an xG of 9.8. 

Appreciate it. 

This strengthens our point even more, that this has to do with mentality and nothing more. This narrative that the Premier League is full of low block teams and it's not possible for players like Werner to get a lot of goals is just stupid. Salah is similar, because most of his goals comes from him running in behind yet he scores loads of goals every single year. 

Werner got the opportunities to score and choked, he's just not ready to deal with the pressure which is unfortunate to see. 

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

20 minutes ago, Jason said:

They also need to know where to be, to score the goals. It's not all just pace here. 

Yup. Pace+reading of space and making runs are his main strength. He makes a lot of good runs that go unnoticed or are not found by the poor passers in the team and their bad executiion/decision making. So if we would play more to his strengths he would get more chacnes for sure. Still his finishing has never been elite, more like that of an average Bundesliga striker. So even if he would get more chances he would still go on and miss most of them. confidence will always be an issue for him.

[cosmicway 1,333]

Werner video from last year's bundesliga:

He seems to be enjoying lots of free space, something he is not gifted in the premier.
Today's was a horrendous howler of course.

 

[Azul 1,615]

1 minute ago, MoroccanBlue said:

What are you actually disagreeing with here? I'm saying Werner is scoring less goals in England than in Germany because the latter had an environment where he strived in (counter attacking league) and the team was built around him. He's gotten a significantly less amount of shots this season compared to last because A, the premier league is a relatively low block league, and B, the team isn't built around him. He was already notoriously known for missing chances in Germany. You reduce the number of attempts he has on goal, he's going to look even worse. 

All of this is hindsight. If I knew this all along I would've been skeptical about this signing. What's a sport Psychologist have to do with Werner when Werner lacks some of the basic principles of finesse in the box? 

 

 

 

 

Look at the stats @Jason posted, his shots to goal ratio got significantly worse as of right now. 

I calculated the shots to goal ratio:

Last season he had 117 shots and scored 28, which means his shots to goal ratio is 28/117 = 24%

This season Werner's has had 62 shots on goal and scored 5 goals, which means his shots to goal ratio is 5/62= 8%

As you can see his ratio got worse by 3 times! This clearly shows that his finishing got worse. I agree that he's had less shots on goal but we can't ignore that he was a much better finisher last season as I've shown you with facts just now.

Look I disagree with you that the biggest problem is the style of play in the EPL. I think that the biggest problem is his mental toughness, which is the most important attribute in football. He's not dealing with the pressure that comes with being a Chelsea player just like many other players and he's facing the consequences on the pitch. 

[Jase 43,479]

15 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

Yup. Pace+reading of space and making runs are his main strength. He makes a lot of good runs that go unnoticed or are not found by the poor passers in the team and their bad executiion/decision making. So if we would play more to his strengths he would get more chacnes for sure. Still his finishing has never been elite, more like that of an average Bundesliga striker. So even if he would get more chances he would still go on and miss most of them. confidence will always be an issue for him.

It would be a miracle if this team can create more chances in the first place. 

[Jase 43,479]

11 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

Werner video from last year's bundesliga:

He seems to be enjoying lots of free space, something he is not gifted in the premier.
Today's was a horrendous howler of course.

 

It's not all about the space fa...aah never mind...

[Azul 1,615]

17 minutes ago, Jason said:

Were we not mainly arguing about his performances? His performances of late aren't exactly the issue. It's the finishing.

He has had shocking misses but they weren't happening every game. But the longer he goes on without getting back into some kind of goalscoring form, the more he misses chances like today, then even I have to go "WTF TIMO!?" because there's no way one can defend that. 

When a player is tasked to get in behind and score goals then his finishing is the most important thing.

I don't want to get in a pages long discussion again. However in our previous discussions I said that Werner misses a lot of chances and I don't think he's performing at a level where he should start week in week out. You countered my arguments, by saying that he offers more then just goals and should still start over CHO/Pulisic. 

The reason why I'm baffled now is because your whole point had nothing to do with his goal contributions but his performances. The fact that you now turnaround and say he's not good enough after the chance he missed today doesn't make sense to me. He still performs good enough to start for Chelsea according to you? Correct?

[MoroccanBlue 5,376]

12 minutes ago, Azul said:

Look at the stats @Jason posted, his shots to goal ratio got significantly worse as of right now. 

I calculated the shots to goal ratio:

Last season he had 117 shots and scored 28, which means his shots to goal ratio is 28/117 = 24%

This season Werner's has had 62 shots on goal and scored 5 goals, which means his shots to goal ratio is 5/62= 8%

As you can see his ratio got worse by 3 times! This clearly shows that his finishing got worse. I agree that he's had less shots on goal but we can't ignore that he was a much better finisher last season as I've shown you with facts just now.

Look I disagree with you that the biggest problem is the style of play in the EPL. I think that the biggest problem is his mental toughness, which is the most important attribute in football. He's not dealing with the pressure that comes with being a Chelsea player just like many other players and he's facing the consequences on the pitch. 

I'm not denying his finishing got worse, I'm saying Werner has always been a chance bottler! He's missed 16 big chances in the league this season. Last season at Liepzeg, he missed 21. So seeing him continue to miss chance after chance, in hindsight, shouldn't be all that surprising. I'd like to think being utilised incorrectly by Lampard for half the season took a toll on his ability to find the net to the standard we saw last season.

I really do not want to get into the argument of 'mental toughness' again whilst throwing out the Morata and Torres comparisons. Already displayed my stance on how I find it ridiculous considering those two had us playing with 10 men. 

 

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, Azul said:

When a player is tasked to get in behind and score goals then his finishing is the most important thing.

I don't want to get in a pages long discussion again. However in our previous discussions I said that Werner misses a lot of chances and I don't think he's performing at a level where he should start week in week out. You countered my arguments, by saying that he offers more then just goals and should still start over CHO/Pulisic. 

The reason why I'm baffled now is because your whole point had nothing to do with his goal contributions but his performances. The fact that you now turnaround and say he's not good enough after the chance he missed today doesn't make sense to me. He still performs good enough to start for Chelsea according to you? Correct?

Whatever I've been saying here over the last hour or so is about Werner's finishing, not his performances. His performances have been alright, he did what Tuchel asked of him. It's his finishing aka the misses that it's just...I don't know what to say. It's one thing to, say, not scoring with the keeper making a save on the shot or something but it's another to just miss an open goal like today. 

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Last season at Liepzeg, he missed 21.

The ironic thing about that is, only Lewandowski missed more than Werner last season (25) and yet, the numbers weren't too different but would anyone say Lewandowski is a big chance bottler? 

Lewandowski has also missed 20 big chances this season but still gets enough chances to rack up 35 league goals.

[Azul 1,615]

5 minutes ago, Jason said:

Whatever I've been saying here over the last hour or so is about Werner's finishing, not his performances. His performances have been alright, he did what Tuchel asked of him. It's his finishing aka the misses that it's just...I don't know what to say. It's one thing to, say, not scoring with the keeper making a save on the shot or something but it's another to just miss an open goal like today. 

Yes and your reasoning for why he should start in our past discussions had nothing to do with his finishing. So by your logic he should still start right?

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, Azul said:

Yes and your reasoning for why he should start in our past discussions had nothing to do with his finishing. So by your logic he should still start right?

In terms of performances, yes.

Different story in terms of finishing.