Cesc Fàbregas

[Stats 7,046]

so you have 3 instances of him playing well in a big match in how long a career exactly? should i give the countless number of classicos or his performance for us against big teams. got owned by fellaini against united, non-existent vs spurs, pool, city. everytime he has played for us this season in abig game, his "performance" has been awful.

his "performance" also includes the defensive side of his game. he is a DLP for god's sake. i am sorry but expecting to mindlessly attack a team that beat barca 3-2 at their home is not the brightest thing to do if you ask me. and please dont tell me we dint attack yesterday. in the first half, psg had a gameplan of sitting back and countering us. dont tell me that we did not have the possession. we were poor because both of our players at the top had a very bad day at the office. costa looked rusty and cesc looked absolutely awful, something which has happened against any team against whom we dont have 9 men committed to attack. i am sorry but thats not the bloody way of playing good teams. so yes, if cesc continues this trend, we may very well be better to drop him.

And how many games did he play for Barca out of position? Yes, Tottenham he was poor, I accept that but the majority of other big games we have had we have played quite defensive. I am just disputing the fact that you said he is a big game flop when he has had several quality big game performances. Fabregas has had other good matches in big games. I picked out those games because he completely stood out. For instance I could have picked out when Arsenal beat us 1-0 and Gallas scored. Fabregas had a solid game. I just didn't pick it out because he did not standout like he did in the others.

Our approach completely changes against tougher teams. But yes I agree with the rest of your statement. We have to consider alternatives to playing the better teams. There was a good enough excuse last season for playing negative last season against the bigger teams because of a lack of creativity. This season, there is not that excuse. We have a quality DM, quality playmaker, and very good attackers. Something we will never be able to change from Mourinho I guess. It works as in we are not losing games but I would rather see us have a go more often.

[Barbara 15,149]

The moment Mourinho wins something again, I suppose he'll improve his approach on big games. The best signing we'll have for next season is winning the league this season, so we have to make sure it happens.

If we beat the lesser teams we'll play away (Leicester, Hull, QPR and West Brom) and win all our home games (Burnley, Southampton, Stoke, United, Palace, Liverpool, Sunderland) we can even afford dropping some points in the two derbies we'll play away (West Ham and Arsenal).

Those are games where Cesc will have a chance to shine (especially the games at home). He'll probably struggle (if even then) against Arsenal away as I don't see José showing West Ham that much respect. For people who defend he doesn't play well in big games we definitely don't have many of them to play yet (Utd, Liverpool and Arse) and as two of those are home, I suppose José will continue to play him in the pivot, so we shouldn't be worried about the glorified myths that he doesn't play well big games and second half of the season.

The moment this team wins some silverware (and here's hoping it comes in 10 days) - especially something as big and relevant as the league, we'll reach another level. The players and the manager will play with less pressure (some people say there's the same amount of pressure to defend a title, I disagree) and with more confidence. Then it'll be a domino effect. With less pressure on his shoulders, Mourinho will be less pragmatic. With less pressure on their shoulders and with an important title under their belt some of our younger players (Zouma, Azpili, Oscar, Hazard) and recent newcomers (Matic, Cesc, Thibaut, Remy, Willian) will play with more motivation, experience and just improve their all around game. Titles gives players confidence and growth and with them playing better because of it, Jose will be even less pragmatic. I still believe we'll reach the heights of his 2012 Real Madrid - which was an attacking force (counter-attacking actually). We just need to have some patience. But if for some terrible situation we don't win the league (I don't like to even imagine this is still a possibility) then I think the opposite will happen as well - which is why we absolutely need to win it.

I said so many times our fixtures were easier than our rivals in this final run, but I'm surprised we still have to play United and Southampton at home (I remembered only Liverpool and Arsenal away). It makes me a bit nervous, but we've been immaculate playing at the Bridge this season and I'm positive we'll carry on. I guess it's just jittery with the title possibility getting bigger with each round we maintain our lead over City.

[Pizy 18,360]

When we sign Pogba in the summer José will never have to resort to playing Cesc at #10.

He clearly doesn't trust Oscar at all in the biggest matches and even he MUST see that Cesc isn't effective at all in our setup in an advanced position. It strips him of his best skills and attributes. We need a top class box to box player who not only has legs to get around the pitch, but is also a threat going forward.

We need to sell one of Oscar, Mikel, or Ramires and sign Pogba or someone of his ilk.

4-3-3:

Hazard---------------Costa----------------Cuadrado/Willian

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Pogba-------------------------------------

------------Fabregas------------Matić----------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Azpi/Luis----------Terry----------Zouma----------Ivanovic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Courtois----------------------------------

No way can anyone say that we can't afford Pogba, either. If we win the league we'll get a huge payday, we'll have huge TV money coming in, CL money, and that new TV deal will kick into effect in a couple of seasons. We can afford one massive splurge this summer.

[Barbara 15,149]

When we sign Pogba in the summer José will never have to resort to playing Cesc at #10.

He clearly doesn't trust Oscar at all in the biggest matches and even he MUST see that Cesc isn't effective at all in our setup in an advanced position. It strips him of his best skills and attributes. We need a top class box to box player who not only has legs to get around the pitch, but is also a threat going forward.

We need to sell one of Oscar, Mikel, or Ramires and sign Pogba or someone of his ilk.

4-3-3:

Hazard---------------Costa----------------Cuadrado/Willian

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Pogba-------------------------------------

------------Fabregas------------Matić----------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Azpi/Luis----------Terry----------Zouma----------Ivanovic

----------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------Courtois----------------------------------

No way can anyone say that we can't afford Pogba, either. If we win the league we'll get a huge payday, we'll have huge TV money coming in, CL money, and that new TV deal will kick into effect in a couple of seasons. We can afford one massive splurge this summer.

I like the idea of Pogba here, but really, he isn't a #10. If we're going to address the position it shouldn't be with him...

We need to address our defense and a Cesc better backup way more than we need to address a new #10.

If we play like we did yesterday (game play) we could have the best ever #10 playing for us and would still change very little. It's Mourinho's defensive demands not only from his #10 but from Hazard and Willian - therefore isolating the striker - that makes us struggle in those big games, not exactly Cesc being marked out of them.

If Cesc has a little more freedom as well as the players he's supposed to link up with and catch running behind the defense and through the channels, then he finds a way out of the marker in a few situations. Yes, he'll be nullified most of the match, but with US giving our attackers the right conditions for them to attack, Cesc will do much better than he did yesterday and we've seen it before this season. I don't remember now - because my memory sucks - but I'm sure he played well as #10 in at least two games this season because I remember me and others praising him for that.

He's definitely better playing as a #8, but getting Pogba in the team will change basically nothing in terms of creativity imo.

Actually with Pogba coming - we'll have a problem because his best position is also #8... he'd be the backup we keep talking about, but we won't splash that much money (nor he will agree) for a backup player that will start whenever we decide to play Fabregas as #10 (which won't happen many times because his preferred and best position is still #8).

I don't care about Cesc's big games record for Arsenal and Barcelona (and there are two digits of big games for those teams that he played really well), but as long as we keep this game play where we isolate the striker and swamp our CAM and wingers with defensive responsibilities, Cesc won't play well (creative wise). It has little to do with his limitations in the position and a lot with the tactics. I wish people could at least acknowledge there when they criticize his performance in the position.

Also can someone with a better memory please mention which were the games he played really well for us as #10?

[Muzchap 8,966]

Just WOW how quick everybody is to turn on Cesc

A sad day for the forum...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

His poor performance against PSG is NOT his fault, it's Jose's poor tactics.

I've said it before, but he just can't play in this advanced role in the tough away matches. He does NOT make us any more solid defensively there, but quite the contrary.

If Jose thinks that he can't play in the "pivot" in a certain match, then he should be dropped from the team completely, not moved forward to where Oscar and Willian are obviously much better suited in our system.

[MrBlueGuy 1,552]

Really worried about his form now, looks like the bottler tag and myth about him going off in 2nd half the season is true.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,912]

A lot of Arsenal fans were saying he disappears in the second portion of the season.

Don't want to say its true, but he definitely seems unfit right now.

[!Hazard! 3,394]

In bad form right now, something has to be done. If I remember correctly, at Inter Jose sent Wesley Sneijder for a week's vacation at Mallorca or something and he ended having the spring of his life. Maybe same should we done with this lad. Go sit under the palm trees for a week or two and then come back for the PSG game.

[Barbara 15,149]

A lot of Arsenal fans were saying he disappears in the second portion of the season.

Don't want to say its true, but he definitely seems unfit right now.

he had been on bed for three days this week, because he was SICK. So Arsenal fans also predict diseases? Can they give me Brazilian lottery numbers while they're at it?

Also most Arsenal fans don't claim this, it's Barcelona's fans because Cesc had been a key player for Arse in a few second halves of the season (the complaints only started when he started to force his move to Barça, until then, no Arse fan ever said a bad word about Cesc - especially because they have eyes (and memory)). I swear I get as angry about this eternal bullshit on this thread as I get about the fucking robbery today. All come from the same place: incompetence on checking really simple facts, such as a nearly broken leg, two clear penalties and a guy scoring and assisting consistently from January to May in years he wasn't injured...

[didierforever 7,349]

Really worried about his form now, looks like the bottler tag and myth about him going off in 2nd half the season is true.

exactly. CHOKING.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

To say he's playing poorly these days is an understatement

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,912]

he had been on bed for three days this week, because he was SICK. So Arsenal fans also predict diseases? Can they give me Brazilian lottery numbers while they're at it?

Also most Arsenal fans don't claim this, it's Barcelona's fans because Cesc had been a key player for Arse in a few second halves of the season (the complaints only started when he started to force his move to Barça, until then, no Arse fan ever said a bad word about Cesc - especially because they have eyes (and memory)). I swear I get as angry about this eternal bullshit on this thread as I get about the fucking robbery today. All come from the same place: incompetence on checking really simple facts, such as a nearly broken leg, two clear penalties and a guy scoring and assisting consistently from January to May in years he wasn't injured...

I don't know any Barcelona fans, but I have definitely had some of my arsenal mates try to tell me he goes missing in the second half of the season. If he is sick he definitely shouldn't be out there though. No use burning someone out, or even playing a sick man, instead of allowing him to get better. Especially just a week before a cup final.

[Jase 43,479]

I don't want to be harsh but my god, his passing was hopeless today. The stats may suggest he did OK in that aspect but the number of times he passed straight to a Burnley player was infuriating!

[dee25 1,044]

This whole 'bottler' label is really confirmation bias at its finest. That's not to say that Cesc hasn't been playing poorly, clearly he has. But it seems like right from the start some people have been waiting and watching him closely for the slightest sign that confirms their suspicions. Looking at the team's performances in big games or in the 2nd half of the season, Cesc hasn't been any worse than the other players but yet no one else gets labelled "a choker". Why? Because folks here already have a preconceived idea about Cesc and selectively see things that affirm the label of him being a bottler.

He's being treated unfairly by some on here and I think people really get it into their heads that the team in general is playing poorly. To start singling out players is absurd. Cesc, Oscar, Costa, even Matic. The team overall has been poor and it doesn't come down to just one player.

[Barbara 15,149]

If I need I'll post this picture on every page of this thread, maybe then the myth will go away.

He had good second halves of season as well as bad. He's been injured more often between Jan-May than Aug-Dec - which is normal as players normally start collect knocks and tiredness appears then.

He was never played to his full capabilities on Barcelona as he was played out of position, so I won't bother with his Barça years and the 2005/06 season for Arsenal and the ones before he didn't have expressive numbers yet.

I don't think a guy assisting a goal every two matches is bad return, even every three... there's no doubt he usually has better stats in the first half of the season - I suppose that was never in question - but the idea he can't perform from January to May is a myth. He's been plagued with injures the second half of season - most small injuries (except 2008/09) - but then again most players that are overplayed in the first months suffer from this.

At the end of the day in 87 matches he started in the second half of the season he directly contributed with 47 goals, which means 0,54 goals+assists per match. If that's bad for a pivot player - then I don't know what is good...

edit: all that said he had a bad match against PSG and today again. Maybe because he was ill, maybe he because he hasn't fully reach form yet after missing a few games with an injury. Either way this could have happened at any moment of the season, it has nothing to do with a general idea comes January he can't play anymore.

[Styles 9,790]

This whole 'bottler' label is really confirmation bias at its finest. That's not to say that Cesc hasn't been playing poorly, clearly he has. But it seems like right from the start some people have been waiting and watching him closely for the slightest sign that confirms their suspicions. Looking at the team's performances in big games or in the 2nd half of the season, Cesc hasn't been any worse than the other players but yet no one else gets labelled "a choker". Why? Because folks here already have a preconceived idea about Cesc and selectively see things that affirm the label of him being a bottler.

He's being treated unfairly by some on here and I think people really get it into their heads that the team in general is playing poorly. To start singling out players is absurd. Cesc, Oscar, Costa, even Matic. The team overall has been poor and it doesn't come down to just one player.

I was one of Fabregas' biggest critics earlier in the season, but I'm cutting him some slack because while I do agree that he is playing poorly so are most of the players . The entire team hasn't played consistently for several weeks. We've had one or two decent performances this calendar year; everything other game has been a real struggle with mostly terrible football on display.

[dee25 1,044]

I was one of Fabregas' biggest critics earlier in the season, but I'm cutting him some slack because while I do agree that he is playing poorly so are most of the players . The entire team hasn't played consistently for several weeks. We've had one or two decent performances this calendar year; everything other game has been a real struggle with mostly terrible football on display.

Completely agree with this Styles. I've had my share of criticisms of him as well but there are too many individuals playing poorly - whether it's the tactics, exhaustion, inability to cope with the pressure, lack of quality, or a combination of all these.....I really don't know but the team is not looking good at all and it's very unfair to start labelling Cesc as a bottler given these circumstances. As you rightfully said, he should be cut some slack. Same with Costa.