kellzfresh 7,229 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 It has nothing to do with rape, it's just nature, if an openly gay man is allowed in a communal shower then so is Eva Carneiro.Simple.LMAO!! Tx lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amblève. 4,995 Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Also, I read that he has no need to come out because heterosexual players don't feel have to announce their sexuality (dave30)...JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!The thing is though, heterosexual players are showing their sexuality ALL THE FUCKING TIME, for example, when they're attending clubs' parties with their girlfriends and wives. But this is so common that nobody even gives a fuck about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Philosophy 101: Take sex out of the equation and males/females could shower together in society. As a species we wouldn't last long (lmao) but we could use communal showers together. There are instances, cultures where nudity does not automatically mean sexuality. Try indiginous people (eg. Yanomamo indians in the amazon). Also, the entire nudism movement is based on being exempt from sexuality. Try walking around a nudist beach with a boner for instance. Or sauna's, or .... Fill it in :-) examples galore of a decoupling of nudity and sexuality. In other era's (victorian) sexuality was so repressed even the sight of a naked ankle would put a man through a testosterone rush. So it is really dependant on the context. Also, the Eva argument is flawed imo. The one objecting would be Eva (women being objectified sexually much more then man throughout history), so in that sense the objecting in your analogy would be coming from the gay guy, right? Why would he do that if it is not sexual for him? Do you think gay sporters in a fitness club, football club, or wherever run around with hard-ons? I would with Eva though ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHOULO19 24,332 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 No, it definitely is the right attitude. Exactly the same as it is the right attitude not to give a fuck about someone's religion, for instance. The only reason why people face discrimination is because of a narrow-minded majority who do make an issue out of it. In an ideal world, I would totally agree. But the issue is that there is discrimination and homophobia does exist. That is why we need to work to get rid of those things in our societies and the people who are working on this would be very happy with a positive and accepting reaction for fans and the media about this because it creates a supporting environment and atmosphere for more homosexual footballers to come out in the future so that eventually enough people "come out" such that it would be a normal thing and we end up in a society were there would no need to "come out".The question of 'then why can't Eva also use the communal showers' shoots down any counter-argument.No, I totally get the point you are trying to make. But what I do not get is how you deduced that the solution is for homosexual footballers to not "come out" and to continue to be discriminated against and not accepted in society instead of the solution being the obvious one (to me at least) which is to not have communal showers because communal showers themselves are a form of discrimination against homosexuals because they assume that all their users are heterosexuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Term-X 7,891 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 There are instances, cultures where nudity does not automatically mean sexuality. Try indiginous people (eg. Yanomamo indians in the amazon). Also, the entire nudism movement is based on being exempt from sexuality. Try walking around a nudist beach with a boner for instance. Or sauna's, or .... Fill it in :-) examples galore of a decoupling of nudity and sexuality. In other era's (victorian) sexuality was so repressed even the sight of a naked ankle would put a man through a testosterone rush. So it is really dependant on the context.Also, the Eva argument is flawed imo. The one objecting would be Eva (women being objectified sexually much more then man throughout history), so in that sense the objecting in your analogy would be coming from the gay guy, right?Why would he do that if it is not sexual for him? Do you think gay sporters in a fitness club, football club, or wherever run around with hard-ons?I would with Eva though ...- My argument was based on the premise that homosexuality is biological, something in which science is slowly proving.- How would you know that it wouldn't bring on urges for the gay guy?, it's not something that can be categorically ruled out like it can with a shower full of straight guys.- If a gay man is open about his preference.. then that changes the WHOLE dynamic of that locker room, and that's just the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 There are instances, cultures where nudity does not automatically mean sexuality. Try indiginous people (eg. Yanomamo indians in the amazon). Also, the entire nudism movement is based on being exempt from sexuality. Try walking around a nudist beach with a boner for instance. Or sauna's, or .... Fill it in :-) examples galore of a decoupling of nudity and sexuality. In other era's (victorian) sexuality was so repressed even the sight of a naked ankle would put a man through a testosterone rush. So it is really dependant on the context. Also, the Eva argument is flawed imo. The one objecting would be Eva (women being objectified sexually much more then man throughout history), so in that sense the objecting in your analogy would be coming from the gay guy, right? Why would he do that if it is not sexual for him? Do you think gay sporters in a fitness club, football club, or wherever run around with hard-ons? I would with Eva though ... - My argument was based on the premise that homosexuality is biological, something in which science is slowly proving. - How would you know that it wouldn't bring on urges for the gay guy?, it's not something that can be categorically ruled out like it can with a shower full of straight guys. - If a gay man is open about his preference.. then that changes the WHOLE dynamic of that locker room, and that's just the reality. Lol!!! I am not even going in on that argument Term, it is the naturalistic fallacy. Biological means nothing in this debate: you are talking morals here, remember. I know it is biological, where have I said anything that even comes close to this topic. Urges: so is that what you fear? The gay man might have an urge? To do what exactly? Lol! This sounds more funny than serious tbh. If he is open: yes, if YOU make it sexual. That is what I was implying, really. It is only a problem if you see it as sexual. It sounds like your fear of the Gay Dong is much more the problem than philosophy 101 ! Must read: it will make the menace of Schlong Invasion go away http://prospect.org/article/are-gay-guys-checking-you-out-locker-room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Term-X 7,891 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 "If you make it sexual"?, so... that's the counter.Ok then, Eva doesn't see it as sexual, the players won't 'make it sexual' why can't she join in?..Eva has no problem with it and she has the same mindset as a gay guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 "If you make it sexual"?, so... that's the counter. Ok then, Eva doesn't see it as sexual, the players won't 'make it sexual' why can't she join in?.. Eva has no problem with it and she has the same mindset as a gay guy. Yes, It was a reply because you made inferences about urges gay guys will have, lmao. Also: you conveniently didnt reply to all the rest. Actually, yes: if neither party sees it as sexual: what is wrong with it. We have mixed sauna's here. Plenty of societies people run around butt naked. We have mixed showers in public places. Some countries like to shit mixed next to each other (sorry to any chinese readers) It is about culture and customs, nothing more. What is so strange about it, Term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Term-X 7,891 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Yes, It was a reply because you made inferences about urges gay guys will have, lmao.Also: you conveniently didnt reply to all the rest. Actually, yes: if neither party sees it as sexual: what is wrong with it. We have mixed sauna's here. We have mixed showers in public places. It is about culture and customs, nothing more.^ Will Could haveOk then, so come Saturday at the KC stadium Eva Carneiro (the same sexual orientation as a gay man) will be lathering up with the team 'if she wants'. Sorted, done, next topic.If we're changing the culture & customs of football it has to be done without double standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The only place to be 11,313 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Since when do physios shower with the players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Term-X 7,891 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Since when do physios shower with the players? All staff can use the team showers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manpe 10,861 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Never understood this attitude that you shouldn't care about stuff like this because there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. Well guess what? Gay people face social stigma and discrimination EVERY DAY and for you to have a passive attitude like "who cares" is fucking sickening tbh. It's a bad attitude to have towards it and shouldn't be glorified as "the right attitude." Ugh.Okay, this is adressed to me. Read my post again, what I said was that people who actually care if some stranger is gay or not are idiots. They are the ones who make this a story. Whether you care if he came out and tries to break the stigma is irrelevant. My point was directed at the people who care about the fact someone is gay, not if he/she publicly admits it. In short: if you're glad he came out, OKAY. If you're glad or angry he's gay, NOT OKAY... hence my "who cares" approach to the whole situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Yes, It was a reply because you made inferences about urges gay guys will have, lmao. Also: you conveniently didnt reply to all the rest. Actually, yes: if neither party sees it as sexual: what is wrong with it. We have mixed sauna's here. We have mixed showers in public places. It is about culture and customs, nothing more. ^ Will Could have Ok then, so come Saturday at the KC stadium Eva Carneiro (the same sexual orientation as a gay man) will be lathering up with the team 'if she wants'. Sorted, done, next topic. If we're changing the culture & customs of football it has to be done without double standards. Right ..... Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Term-X 7,891 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I tried to inject a bit of humour into the latter of that 2nd line, 'since I was only rehashing'. Probably wasn't the best idea though, a simple mind can't detect subtly through modems. Thus resorts to posting pseudo-funny pics..My initial argument still stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I tried to inject a bit of humour into the latter of that 2nd line, 'since I was only rehashing'. Probably wasn't the best idea though, a simple mind can't detect subtly through modems. Thus resorts to posting pseudo-funny pics.. My initial argument still stands. If i didn't get your incredible humor infusion, it is more likely to do with English not being my native language. I am sure you would get my jokes just fine when I speak Dutch, French, German or even Latin. You argument fails, because you keep switching topics every time you get a rebuttal. I say to you something very, very simple: your argument is a prime example of the naturalistic fallacy, a common know debating fallacy since David Hume. Look it up before accusing me from being simple minded, ow controversial one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 it's just nature, if an openly gay man is allowed in a communal shower then so is Eva Carneiro. Simple. Here above the original statement Also : my claim: Deriving 'ought' from 'is' = naturalistic fallacy in philosophy You use 'it is just nature' ergo if gay is allowed so is Eva = fallacy for your argument On Wiki just to keep it simple: In philosophical ethics, the term "naturalistic fallacy" was introduced by British philosopher G. E. Moore in his 1903 book Principia Ethica.[1] Moore argues it would be fallacious to explain that which is good reductively, in terms of natural properties. The naturalistic fallacy is closely related to the fallacious appeal to nature, the claim that what is natural is inherently good or right, and that what is unnatural is inherently bad or wrong. Furthermore, Moore's naturalistic fallacy is closely related to the is/ought problem, which comes from Hume's Treatise. Indeed: philosophy 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoSalah 8,886 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Good for him, footballers must find it impossible to even consider coming out. Just shows how backward our society is at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidEU 2,023 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 What a load of bullshit this thread has become.Such a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stingray 9,441 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 What a load of bullshit this thread has become.Such a shame.Excuse me? Can you be a bit more precise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidEU 2,023 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Excuse me? Can you be a bit more precise?This is a serious topic. Especially to me.The last page or two have been ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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