Closed Chelsea v Cardiff

[Tomo 21,733]

Absolutely, but it won't make a HUGE difference, imo. Which was one reason why I was against us spending ridiculous money like 50-60m for Falcao or even Cavani.

Last game was an exception because it was practically the first time our striker was the key man in our offensive game plan since DD left. When was the last time before that when a striker of ours got 4 clear cut chances against decent opposition? Torres had one half-chance against Spurs when Mikel played a long for him behind the defense but his control let him down. Even against Steaua who were shit, Eto'o barely had two chances.

Yes, getting better strikers will increase our overall goals because obviously they'll (hopefully) take their chances better, but it won't be a huge difference, imo.

Don't you think? i think it will make the world of difference. You only need to look at Man.Utd who won 4-2 against Levekusen despite playing dog shit to see where actual good forwards will get you not one's who "work hard for the team".

When it comes to a forward - Goals > link up play, working hard and all that jazz, if we have a forward who scores almost every match, we would effectively be 1-0 up before we set foot on the pitch. That's why i would have took Mario Gomez with my eyes closed.

The line i see used a lot is our system doesn't rely on a forward, well funnily enough since Jose left the last time we have only had one season off a striker being bang on his game and scoring week in, week out and by coincidence it's the only season we have won the league since.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Although consistency would be preferable at this point in the season it might be worth playing a few of the second stringers like Azpi, Bertrand and Mikel and giving the main guys a rest. I wouldn't be playing Mata in Schalke so he'd start, as would De Bruyne and possibly Willian.

Cech

Azpi Cahill Luiz Bertrand

Mikel Ramires

Willian Mata De Bruyne

Ba

The last 2 games where pretty unfair to Mikel after his goal. Deserved starter against Cardiff.

[aerl 4]

Torres is back. So I expect him to start.

Hopefully Torres will play

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Don't you think? i think it will make the world of difference. You only need to look at Man.Utd who won 4-2 against Levekusen despite playing dog shit to see where actual good forwards will get you not one's who "work hard for the team".

When it comes to a forward - Goals > link up play, working hard and all that jazz, if we have a forward who scores almost every match, we would effectively be 1-0 up before we set foot on the pitch. That's why i would have took Mario Gomez with my eyes closed.

The line i see used a lot is our system doesn't rely on a forward, well funnily enough since Jose left the last time we have only had one season off a striker being bang on his game and scoring week in, week out and by coincidence it's the only season we have won the league since.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that (mind you I'm not agreeing with it all either), but it's kinda besides the original point which was that we are currently creating a certain amount of chances per game which won't be affected too much even if we had someone like Gomez leading our line. If you want a striker who scores every match you'll need to change the system and make most of the chances fall to him instead of falling to the AMs as is the case atm.

[didierforever 7,349]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that (mind you I'm not agreeing with it all either), but it's kinda besides the original point which was that we are currently creating a certain amount of chances per game which won't be affected too much even if we had someone like Gomez leading our line. If you want a striker who scores every match you'll need to change the system and make most of the chances fall to him instead of falling to the AMs as is the case atm.

highly disagree.

the chances ARE currently falling to the ST.

against everton - etoo had the best 2 chances.

against bucurest - again etoo had a couple of glorious chances.

against swindon - torres easily could have had a hat-trick.

against norwich - ba should have had a hat-trick.

these are sure-shot chances. chances which ST like rooney, rvp, falcao, cavani, ibra would convert with their eyes closed.

and all these chances are without counting the 50-50 chances. chances like the one RVP converted against leverkusen with united 1-1. valencia putting in an awkward cross, chest high, behind the striker and rvp still converted to change the whole game. i dont think we would have to change our game at all, just change the STs and we ll be set.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

highly disagree.

the chances ARE currently falling to the ST.

against everton - etoo had the best 2 chances.

against bucurest - again etoo had a couple of glorious chances.

against swindon - torres easily could have had a hat-trick.

against norwich - ba should have had a hat-trick.

these are sure-shot chances. chances which ST like rooney, rvp, falcao, cavani, ibra would convert with their eyes closed.

and all these chances are without counting the 50-50 chances. chances like the one RVP converted against leverkusen with united 1-1. valencia putting in an awkward cross, chest high, behind the striker and rvp still converted to change the whole game. i dont think we would have to change our game at all, just change the STs and we ll be set.

I'm not saying that the strikers are not getting any chances, but they're not getting the majority of the chances like they do in teams like United or Everton (except against Norwich). Yes getting better strikers will increase our overall goals but not by much. No striker in the world will score every match if he only gets 1-2 half chances.

[didierforever 7,349]

I'm not saying that the strikers are not getting any chances, but they're not getting the majority of the chances like they do in teams like United or Everton (except against Norwich). Yes getting better strikers will increase our overall goals but not by much. No striker in the world will score every match if he only gets 1-2 half chances.

how are you saying that???

most strikers in the world are deadly when u put the ball into the box, the likes of falcao, cavani, ibra, but our strikers dont even fight for those half balls. they dont put the defence under that minimum pressure to fluff their clearances or make a mistake. ba did that against norwich that is the reason he had so many chances. twice he made rudy make a mistake. torres and etoo dont and simply cant hustle the defenders. so a whole dimension of attack is lot to us when playing with out current STs because we simply cant cross the ball into the box. the movement of our strikers is decent specially etoo, but half the times he simply cant get the ball off his feet. that one second is all that professional defenders need to cover it up. and thats the difference between WC strikers and our current crop. i mean how many of united's goal scored by rvp and rooney combined are tap-ins. they have scored from 50-50 oppurtunities (rooney FKs, rvp over the head goals) rather than scoring bare tap ins.

as for the majority of chances, they are getting it. telling me the no. of sure shot goal opportunities missed by all our AMs and compare it to the ones missed by the STs.

our AMs are doing the things that are STs are supposed to do. they have to create as well as score. double-pressure. i mean the oscar goal against norwich was a half chance or lamps goal against bucuresti was a half-chance but not the ones our STs have been missing.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Seems an absolute eternity away again.....fuck off international break you kill my life.

tbf the England games are very important, it's not like it's just random friendlies.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

how are you saying that???

most strikers in the world are deadly when u put the ball into the box, the likes of falcao, cavani, ibra, but our strikers dont even fight for those half balls. they dont put the defence under that minimum pressure to fluff their clearances or make a mistake. ba did that against norwich that is the reason he had so many chances. twice he made rudy make a mistake. torres and etoo dont and simply cant hustle the defenders. so a whole dimension of attack is lot to us when playing with out current STs because we simply cant cross the ball into the box. the movement of our strikers is decent specially etoo, but half the times he simply cant get the ball off his feet. that one second is all that professional defenders need to cover it up. and thats the difference between WC strikers and our current crop. i mean how many of united's goal scored by rvp and rooney combined are tap-ins. they have scored from 50-50 oppurtunities (rooney FKs, rvp over the head goals) rather than scoring bare tap ins.

as for the majority of chances, they are getting it. telling me the no. of sure shot goal opportunities missed by all our AMs and compare it to the ones missed by the STs.

our AMs are doing the things that are STs are supposed to do. they have to create as well as score. double-pressure. i mean the oscar goal against norwich was a half chance or lamps goal against bucuresti was a half-chance but not the ones our STs have been missing.

You're completely taking the attacking system out of the equation. You're assuming that strikers will perform the same no matter what the system is which is just ridiculous. Falcao had a whole system built around him. The other ten players on the pitch were just trying to get Falcao to score when Athletico had the ball. He had something like 60%(EDIT: 52% to be precise) of his team's goals by himself! Same for RVP last season, while our strikers role last season and to some extent this season is to create space for the AMs to run into.

This season, in the league, only 17 of the 79 chances created by us have fallen to either Torres, Eto'o or Ba. That's 21%! So no, the majority of the chances are not falling to our strikers.

Falcao had a conversion rate of 22% last season. Cavani had 18%. That means that you would need to create 5-6 chances for them per game if you want them to score every game. There is absolutely no chance we could do that with our current system that is built around the three players behind the striker.

[Special Juan 27,439]

tbf the England games are very important, it's not like it's just random friendlies.

Might be to you, but not for me. Despise International football, horrible.

[Magic Lamps 11,668]

Might be to you, but not for me. Despise International football, horrible.

hate it, too. There is nothing more corrupted and shamelessly commercialised than international football. The qualifications are full of needless games against midget states, most national football associations are a bunch of undead jackasses. Tournaments take place whereever the most money is paid to Blatter and his fellow parasites. Thousands of families are forced to move and even killed to built stadiums in countries whose infrastructure is completely overchallenged. During the WC, local shops are forced to close so McDonalds and other sponsors don't have competitors. In countries like South Africa, Brazil, a tournament leaves behind scorched earth, a weakened economy, even more impovered population, fleeced by a bunch of corrupt old twats and global corporations. This slaughter is sold as a big party to the media. Horrible crimes committed in the name of sports. One of the most disgusting aspects of our time.

[didierforever 7,349]

You're completely taking the attacking system out of the equation. You're assuming that strikers will perform the same no matter what the system is which is just ridiculous. Falcao had a whole system built around him. The other ten players on the pitch were just trying to get Falcao to score when Athletico had the ball. He had something like 60%(EDIT: 52% to be precise) of his team's goals by himself! Same for RVP last season, while our strikers role last season and to some extent this season is to create space for the AMs to run into.

This season, in the league, only 17 of the 79 chances created by us have fallen to either Torres, Eto'o or Ba. That's 21%! So no, the majority of the chances are not falling to our strikers.

Falcao had a conversion rate of 22% last season. Cavani had 18%. That means that you would need to create 5-6 chances for them per game if you want them to score every game. There is absolutely no chance we could do that with our current system that is built around the three players behind the striker.

oh dear!!! and do u think we would play this system even with an awesome target man ahead like rvp, cavani or falcao? do u think jose would say things like "i dont know why ivanovic was putting crosses into the box because i dont think DD plays for us!!!"

we are playing in this system because jose knows that right now our AMs are a bigger threat than our strikers. he knows the limitations and constraints of all our strikers and is trying to use them in the best way we can.

to say that we would have been playing the same way with a World Class ST and targetman upfront is ridiculous. i mean even for a moment u think we would play exactly the same way if we had DD in his prime upfront. NO WAY. we would be playing something like how BVB plays. the striker wont just have a role of creating space for AMs (which good ST anyways do for other players thru their movement) but also be a worthy outlet for our AMs.

ps - all u need to do is watch our last season's away defeat to WBA. for 60 odd minutes, we had no chances. our only goal came from a hazard freak header. but as soon as rdm changed sturridge from the right wing to the striker position and brought mata on for torres, sturridge had 3 1v1 which had a lot to do with his off the ball movement and his movement to run behind the defence. and that is what will happen with a good striker. we will become far more direct and way more threatening. (like i said before, just like BVB).

also those stats about conversion rate, tell me how many of those were clear-cut chances like the ones, etoo had against everton and bucuresti, ba had against norwich or torres had against swindon. falcao/cavani take a number of shots from outside the box, and play a lot of percentages with their runs and headers and shots from crosses. but give them the chances, that our strikers have had and they will convert 9 out of 10 of those chances.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

oh dear!!! and do u think we would play this system even with an awesome target man ahead like rvp, cavani or falcao? do u think jose would say things like "i dont know why ivanovic was putting crosses into the box because i dont think DD plays for us!!!"

we are playing in this system because jose knows that right now our AMs are a bigger threat than our strikers. he knows the limitations and constraints of all our strikers and is trying to use them in the best way we can.

to say that we would have been playing the same way with a World Class ST and targetman upfront is ridiculous. i mean even for a moment u think we would play exactly the same way if we had DD in his prime upfront. NO WAY. we would be playing something like how BVB plays. the striker wont just have a role of creating space for AMs (which good ST anyways do for other players thru their movement) but also be a worthy outlet for our AMs.

ps - all u need to do is watch our last season's away defeat to WBA. for 60 odd minutes, we had no chances. our only goal came from a hazard freak header. but as soon as rdm changed sturridge from the right wing to the striker position and brought mata on for torres, sturridge had 3 1v1 which had a lot to do with his off the ball movement and his movement to run behind the defence. and that is what will happen with a good striker. we will become far more direct and way more threatening. (like i said before, just like BVB).

also those stats about conversion rate, tell me how many of those were clear-cut chances like the ones, etoo had against everton and bucuresti, ba had against norwich or torres had against swindon. falcao/cavani take a number of shots from outside the box, and play a lot of percentages with their runs and headers and shots from crosses. but give them the chances, that our strikers have had and they will convert 9 out of 10 of those chances.

Then we might as well switch to the 4-3-3 false 9 and squeeze one more AM in there.

We seems to have plenty.

[didierforever 7,349]

Then we might as well switch to the 4-3-3 false 9 and squeeze one more AM in there.

We seems to have plenty.

we have done that in the most important match we have played so far, UNITED AWAY. when jose dint trust ba, torres or lukaku to be a better option upfront than schurlle.

but again, the point comes back to would those AMs be better targetmen than our strikers?

[Sidzeret 2,257]

we have done that in the most important match we have played so far, UNITED AWAY. when jose dint trust ba, torres or lukaku to be a better option upfront than schurlle.

but again, the point comes back to would those AMs be better targetmen than our strikers?

I still don't think that was false 9 though; was more like Shurrle taking up the striker role in an unorthodox manner and we did look like a mess up field.

And none of our AM can be better target men than any clinical striker like DD, Falcao, Cavani or Lew.

[didierforever 7,349]

I still don't think that was false 9 though; was more like Shurrle taking up the striker role in an unorthodox manner and we did look like a mess up field.

And none of our AM can be better target men than any clinical striker like DD, Falcao, Cavani or Lew.

taking up the striker role in an unorthodox manner - points a lot to false 9.

as for the 2nd part - dint get it??? i said they wont be better target men than OUR strikers so why the comparision with these strikers?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

oh dear!!! and do u think we would play this system even with an awesome target man ahead like rvp, cavani or falcao? do u think jose would say things like "i dont know why ivanovic was putting crosses into the box because i dont think DD plays for us!!!"

we are playing in this system because jose knows that right now our AMs are a bigger threat than our strikers. he knows the limitations and constraints of all our strikers and is trying to use them in the best way we can.

to say that we would have been playing the same way with a World Class ST and targetman upfront is ridiculous. i mean even for a moment u think we would play exactly the same way if we had DD in his prime upfront. NO WAY. we would be playing something like how BVB plays. the striker wont just have a role of creating space for AMs (which good ST anyways do for other players thru their movement) but also be a worthy outlet for our AMs.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make originally: If we had a 20+ league goals per season striker, we won't be playing the current system and our midfield won't be scoring as many goals as now since less chances will be falling their way and more to the striker. So even though we'd change the system, it doesn't necessarily mean that the team as whole will score much more goals.

ps - all u need to do is watch our last season's away defeat to WBA. for 60 odd minutes, we had no chances. our only goal came from a hazard freak header. but as soon as rdm changed sturridge from the right wing to the striker position and brought mata on for torres, sturridge had 3 1v1 which had a lot to do with his off the ball movement and his movement to run behind the defence. and that is what will happen with a good striker. we will become far more direct and way more threatening. (like i said before, just like BVB).

I don't want to go into debate on whether or not we would actually change the system because it is purely hypothetical, but we've made around 200m investment between fees and wages in the attacking midfielders our system is currently built around. I'm not too sure we would just change the system that easily.

also those stats about conversion rate, tell me how many of those were clear-cut chances like the ones, etoo had against everton and bucuresti, ba had against norwich or torres had against swindon. falcao/cavani take a number of shots from outside the box, and play a lot of percentages with their runs and headers and shots from crosses. but give them the chances, that our strikers have had and they will convert 9 out of 10 of those chances.

Swindon? Steaua? Those are league one level defenses that we'll barely a few times a season. I'm talking about the level of defenses that we would face on a regular basis. Plus Eto'o must have taken about 5-6 shots from distance against Steaua. So the 17 chances are by no means all clear-cut chances. The point is we are not creating enough chances for our strikers to expect them to score in every game. To compare, United, despite struggling in creating chances, have created 42 chances for their strikers this season in the league while Liverpool have created 20 chances for Sturridge alone.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

taking up the striker role in an unorthodox manner - points a lot to false 9.

as for the 2nd part - dint get it??? i said they wont be better target men than OUR strikers so why the comparision with these strikers?

I was saying we didn't play the false 9 like the way it should be. Shurrle was moving to the flanks often and never moved deep into mid to receive passes. Never a false 9 set-up.

As for the second part, i was reiterating the need for an effecient striker.