No.10 Role

[darrus 422]

I remember it was about the same uproar when in Real Mourinho moved Ramos from right back position to central defence. Everyone was complaining, and look how it turned out for the player and for the club.

[Barbara 15,149]

sorry @Barbara

don't know what you're on about, but Mata is a wonderfull player 5 times the player silva is and silva plays so what? Ask @Magic Lamps, he knows how it is when the worlds best footballplayer maybe second best plays the second fiddle to somebody else just because of the preferrence of the nationalteam-fans.

Just look at what Mata does and to other OMF in this leage... in his first season everybody said it was a freak season and it was just because we played to his strengthes that he was better then silva in most ppls opinion... in his second he just repeatet his first season and was actuall BETTER... I'm sure Jose will play Oscar as CAMF/CMF and Mata will be OMF I've statet my point in the Basel-Match-Thread...

thanks a lot for this post!

The 5x times player Silva is exactly what you guys think is true, but stats proved otherwise - only that our players capitalized more and at the end of the day Mata ended up with more goals and assists than him. But Silva created more. He created 104 chances for his team in each of the last two seasons, he kept his numbers from 2011/12 into 2012/13. Mata went from 102 to 95 (or 94) comparing both seasons - and the point isn't even keeping the level, but being inferior to Silva statistically - which he was. Silva is a heck of a player, who has a completely different style compared to Mata and who led ManCity to compete for real against ManUtd - although they also failed miserably in UCL, something we matched last season btw, but let's ignore it and let the heroic and collective effort made to win UCL to mask our reality in the past couple of years.

I really wish Mou went away - preferably to Arsenal at this point - and we brought the names you guys suggested that would make this team work around Mata. I would love to sit down and watch us be brilliant again - just like in the last two years - except I'd hate it. But that's the hypothetical I hate so much, so it's not worth elaborate further than that. You guys are allowing the two country flags in my profile mask my point here. I didn't defend Oscar once I just can't for the life of me see the Mata everyone does or see a Mata that really deserves this team to be built around him and make us as competitive as we should because despite our deficiencies I suppose we had a better squad than some of the 5 teams ahead of us in 2012 and way better than Arsenal and Tottenham last season. Let's not forget all teams have their deficiencies...

As I said, I rest my case because for as long as the argument remotely involves a Brazilian - my pov is invalid and I'm defending the guy even if I keep stating otherwise. I'll leave my thoughts to myself and to places where I can explain them clearly in Portuguese, although I don't know how my English is failing to show you that I think Mata is better than Oscar. But that's all that is left behind. As I said yesterday, let Oscar go, and then maybe my opinion won't belittled because people think it's about patriotic bias.

[Barbara 15,149]

When Mata and Silva were both at Valencia, they interchanged between the LM and CAM roles with regularity. I don't see why Oscar and Mata can't learn to do the same now. That sort of movement and dynamism would make us a lot more unpredictable as an attacking unit. At the minute all the defence has to do is swamp Oscar, or any other player operating centrally. We have absolutely no width at all.

trust me Alex, Oscar is a liability in the wing. He just can't produce anything worth in the attack playing there, isn't as efficient in other aspects because he isn't as fast as many opposition wingers and FB's, he can't set up tempo from there, he has an average cross at best, he doesn't dribble enough to get passed opponents. He will be just a number in the field. People say we worked so better with Mazacar last year - I don't think we did to start with, Mazacar isn't practical and doesn't work in the real world - but when Oscar shone playing in the matches was when he was in the middle - as they alternated positions a lot throughout the matches. At the wing we might be able to count in one hand the good moments he had. Now we have Willian, André and Kevin, there's no reason to play Oscar there. If Mata is the best guy for the CAM position, Oscar should be his direct substitute.

And to play him in the pivot I think two things 1) it's a waste, he's too creative and smart to simply be our pivot guy 2) we'll have a terrible light pivot, even if his partner is Mikel (the better holding DM player we have) and he'll struggle because while his work-rate and defensive abilities put him ahead of others players in the AM because you don't find players as good as him on those things playing there, compared to good DLP his work-rate and defensive abilities are mediocre. We'd only be exposing our defense more. When we watch the goal Everton scored against us, Oscar would have made worse. He's good defending for an AM, not for a MD standards. Then we'd be wasting his creativity and exposing his limitations as a MD because as a simple MD he has limitations compared to others.

[Ainsley Harriott 2,732]

Lol @ people hating on either one of them

[didierforever 7,349]

mate, at the end of the day, I don't want the last two years' Chelsea - Mata or no Mata - because that's not a competitive team - the numbers tell me that. I think we were much more deserving to win the UCL in 2008 for example than in 2012. Titles won like that happen once in decades. It's so true that we had 2-4 opportunities and either lost the F or SF.

I don't know if Mourinho's changes will get us to a better place - as I said, it's risky. All of you can seem to want the maintenance of Rafa's, Robbie's and ABV's systems. I don't. All of you think that Mata is the answer to our problems - I'm not so sure because in two years he failed to be. Finishing sixth in the national league shows how we lacked competing against not only the big dogs, but the second tier as well. Finishing 14 points behind ManU and struggling unnecessary to finish 3rd ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham is too little for the investment we have in my opinion. And in neither instances we played a defensive system, in both instances we failed as a team and blaming everyone and making one player our golden boy makes no sense. The fault is always everyone else except there. Let's all watch together what Özil can make to that Arsenal team. Then maybe people will understand.

And just so we are clear because I don't know if things get lost in my posts because they're long (and I'm a babbler) or if my English comes into the way, the point was never Oscar x Mata. How many times do I need to repeat the same bullshit in bold, giant letters, underline and italic? I think Mata is a better player FFS. I just don't think he's half good you guys think, don't think he can carry a team and it makes NO SENSE whatsoever to have Oscar playing in the team as a winger - so we can accommodate Mata in the CAM - when he's pathetic in the wing and we have 3 very capable wingers in the team. Just bench Oscar. I have no problem benching Oscar because I've also said at least a couple of times that although I agree with Mou that he's been our best player this season, he's been far from brilliant and truth is he wouldn't lead us to any better place than Mata did although he would give us more stability comparing the same starting XI replacing Mata for him in the CAM position.

Now, before I'm kicked out from Mata's cult for blasphemy, I'll rest my case. I hope he recovers, we need him to recover, but he wasn't, isn't and won't ever be the kind of guy that will carry a team on his own, reason why I think the team shouldn't be built around him, but him along with anyone else should adapt to a system, whatever that is. That was my point through and through and the discussion is pointless in my opinion when the numbers from a club as big as Chelsea tell us what we competed for in the last two years: FA Cup, EL and the lucky UCL.

I went to unfair extremes - which is why I said I hate diminishing him - to make people see where I was coming from. Some do, some don't. It's not about agreeing, only understanding the point I was trying to make. Whoever else want the Old Chelsea, keep it, I'll keep the change - until it makes us end 7th. When the change makes end 7th than I'll rather the 2011-2013 Chelsea.

A lot of the things you implied I meant, aren't things I meant, but the extension of some of the points I've made to try to make people understand my point. Yours has been clear since the beginning. Keep 2011-2013 Chelsea all you want. We can't get rid soon enough of that Chelsea imo, regardless of Mata, pivot, striker, Oscar, defense, etc.

Chelsea didn't win anything worth mentioning, mate, that's the point everyone seems to love to ignore. Unless our competition is now EL. UCL can never showcase our real capability - that much is proved when we were pathetically kicked out from the group stage as the reining champions for the first time in the history of the tournament. If that alone didn't prove how our UCL title was lucky, I don't know what else does. But as I said, I'm resting my case. I'll support this team finishing 6th. I supported this team in less promising moments of its story - although not as much as people who has been supporting it for decades as I've just completed my first decade. I don't need Chelsea to finish first - I'm not implying anyone does - and I won't support a player above the team - and that I'm implying I've been reading here...

where do i even start?

finishing 6th was an exaggeration in 2011-12. i mean look at the team that played arsenal away (after the barca game) or liverpool away (after the fa cup game) and u get a clear indication of exactly how much the league meant to us. it was a lost cause and in the end rdm decided that it was the 3rd priority. and it worked. so that 6th should not be an argument. before the start of the 2012-13 season, if u had told me that we would finish 3rd in the league then i would have taken it in a heartbeat. for 8 years we were predominantly playing a game of hoofing the ball upto DD and him bailing us out of everything. now our most talismanic player was gone. the spine of the team had withered and players like oscar, hazard, marin, moses were bought him. and if u actually expected us to be not fighting for a CL spot or if u expected us to be fighting for the PL, then lets stop this discussion right now. getting a 3rd spot with the squad we had and with the time the squad had spent together was A BIG DEAL. so the last season was in no ways a failure.

why should oscar be benched instead of playing on the wings? have we already forgotten what the MAZACAR was doing last season. the wingers we have are willian, schurlle, kdb not ronaldo, bale and neymar. oscar in the team with mata gives us the X-FACTOR, and that is what is essential to break down defences.

as for the other part where u say that u think, he is not HALF as good as people make him out to be, his stats say differently.

i would take an EL, FA cup and a lucky CL over any stability and all the jazz that is supposedly the most important thing for a club.

lets look at all the clubs u wanted me to compare with in your previous posts in the last 2 years.

RM - one la liga

barca - la liga, copa del ray

united - EPL

bayern - bundesliga, german cup, CL

borussia - bundesliga, german cup

we have the MOST or the 2nd most successul team in ALL OF EUROPE in the last 2 years.

i seriously dont understand where u r coming from? the point was never about discarding the old system. all of us and most of us at the end of the last season were happy (in a way). the future looked bright. with the team and the SYSTEM we currently had, add to it mou as a manager plus add a WC striker and a WC DM and most us thought we would have been set. but for one of the most un-understandable reason, we dint get any of the 2. u wanted me to compare chelsea with the other top teams in europe and tell me ONE team out of bvb, bayern, RM, barca that are so poor in standards when it comes to the deep mid and striker positions. the only good thing about chelsea were our attacking mid with mata leading the charge and that would have only been ENHANCED is we had got a proper DM and a WC striker. if u want chelsea to be competing witht the best, we need to have the best players. at this moment we are discarding our most potent weapon.

chelsea winning the cl, el and fa cup is not worth mentioning. then i am sorry, we simply cant argue. because for me beautiful football, possession footbal and all that jazz means shit if u dont win things. i dont want to end up like arsenal. i dont care if we got lucky and all, it worked. we won. 5 years from now, no one would care. all that would be known to the world is that chelsea won 2011-12 CL. also no one is supporting mata over the team. the thread itself is named mata vs oscar- no.10 debate which should be clear enough. all we are saying is that mata is essential to this team. even with all the talent we have, mata has to be the one to carry this team on his shoulders as oscar does not seem to be ready/better than mata for the same role.

[Barbara 15,149]

I don't think it's a matter of who's better, but rather a matter of inability; that is Mata's inability to play the number ten role that Jose wants in the team right now. The role has changed immensely since last season under Rafa where we were basically playing a 4-4-1-1 with Mata as a second striker.

First, Jose wants the number ten to play like a central midfielder in defense. He wants the 4-2-3-1 to turn into 4-3-3 in defense. Mata cannot do that, he doesn't have the physical strength, nor the defensive abilities to do so. Jose also wants the #10 to be the player chases the ball and put pressure on the opposition's deepest midfielder.

Secondly, and I'm really surprised that this has not been mentioned because, for me, this is the most important aspect, Jose wants the number ten to drop to receive the ball and then be the one that moves the ball to the wings or strikers. Last season, all Mata had to do was sit in the final third and wait for the ball to come to him. He can't drop and link-up with the pivot and fullbacks like Jose wants because he's very uncomfortable with his back to goal. The mistake which led to the corner that Basel scored from is an example of that. Last season, our biggest issue imo was our inability to move the ball from defense to attack and playing Oscar in the #10 role practically solves that.That's why, for me, he has to be first choice.

As for Mata, I think he will need to play on the wing. Yes, he doesn't have the pace to be effective there on the counter attack, but most of our games we will be dominating possession and he could be vital for the team by providing a creative spark. On the left wing, he is capable of proving some much needed width in some games. Oscar and KDB should be our two number tens, imo.

And as for Jose's comments, he knows exactly what he's doing. He's trying to motivate Mata who is a professional and will only try to work harder because of those comments.

Oh, and can we pleeease stop putting Oscar (and KDB for that matter) in the pivot for goodness' sake?! This isn't FIFA, players don't have perfect movement off the ball even if they're playing out of position. You can't squeeze all out AMs into the same formation, so please stop trying to.

I already liked this post, but I wanted to repost it and say I agree with everything. And that counts for the first time I'm defending Oscar in the thread

And the bold part! I want to hug you for the bold part

I kept saying in my first posts the question isn't who's better as a player, but who works better in the system as the CAM. I guess that's Oscar, but as I also said, I'd need to have matches to see that working to say it is. I can say Mazacar the way played last year doesn't work because it isn't practical because I've seen it. On paper they would be great, on reality not. The same thing is about the Oscar DLP bullshit. On paper seems great (although imo not even on paper) in reality would be a disaster waiting to happen and would only weaken even more our already fragile pivot, exposing us and our defense 10x more than currently. Oscar is way too light for the position. I don't know Kevin well enough to say, but I think he's perfect for the wing, our best football this season came with him raping the wing and I think until he proves otherwise, he should play there.

@didierforever, as I said I rested my case, I'm addressing only other topics and people I haven't as I'm still pages behind in the thread.

We have different opinions and takes, carry on the discussion is pointless. Let's agree to disagree.

[didierforever 7,349]

It is unfortunate that instead of praising oscar's development we are putting more unwarranted pressure on the kid by demanding an automatic place for mata despite his poor form yet we say chelsea destroys young players never giving them a chance well oscar is a kid and has been given a chance by mourinho who is criticised for not playing young players, now that he does people still criticise him.

yes, very true dude because CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB is all about developing oscar not about getting the right results and the right balance. LOL-MAX post.

[Ollie 4,400]

Oscar is not a winger at all and Mata can play as a winger very well so i go for Oscar here.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

And the bold part! I want to hug you for the bold part

You're so mean!

[Barbara 15,149]

You're so mean!

don't worry, I'm sore, it won't happen because you know the thousands of miles separating us wouldn't be the first issue on that

[Ainsley Harriott 2,732]

yes, very true dude because CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB is all about developing oscar not about getting the right results and the right balance. LOL-MAX post.

Chelsea Football Club is not a recovery house for players who are not in form. Two can play your game

[Barbara 15,149]

Wel Oscar, ok!

But Kevin actually layed in attacking pivot role and I personally think he is good at it - even with to potential to be better there than on the flanks. So it is really not a FIFA thing, it is just that a lot on here haven't seen him play there and think it would be a mistake.

Imo he could take the role Lamps now has (so he doesn't have to play all the games).

On the Mata Oscar subject I will refrain from commenting because I don't like the question, especially with the 'versus'. Mta is great, Oscar is great - they have a different skill set and can be used accordingly. If one doesn't fit in the system - that is very well possible. Mou indeed expects a 10 to drop deep and that real is Oscars game. If it is more operating between the lines of the final third - then Mata (when confident/fit) is simply class.

It is all about choices really and NOT about who is best. I compare it to evolutionary adaptations really: organisms are adapted for a certain ecosystem, so they thrive in that ecosystem (e.g.. the elephant ears to cool the animal down). however, put an ice bear in Central Africa and he imply wouldn't make it - despite being such a fierce predator.

Key is when and in what tactical setup is one of the two the best 'fit'. Right now, that seems to be Oscar - but there will be games we need Mata. That is the reason why I want him nurtured a bit more. Still, as so often this can be an attempt to tickle the player and hope for a positive counterreaction. - which can backfire as well.

but the question is, for Kev to be there does it require Witsel to be by his side? I think that's the point. As I said in a post just five minutes ago I don't know Kev well enough to see how his holding capabilities are to play in the position and do not compromise. Also let's not forget the abysmal difference between NT and club football. What works in NT's - especially in Europe because you guys only play 5 teams and most times 3 of those teams are beyond pathetic (I personally think Belgium group to be weak as Croatia and Serbia both being way past their better years). Did he play like this for Bremen and it worked? Who was the partner in the pivot?

[Barbara 15,149]

If I'm being totally honest as much as I love Mata, he's not really done the business on the park so far this season, whereas Oscar has. How long is Mata going to be allowed to live off of previous seasons reputations? He has to prove that he belongs on the pitch, he's not done that this season so far.

I hope his form returns and soon, but it's not the end of the world if we have guys legitimately playing better than him. The starting XI should be picked on form, not reputation

forever and ever.

I remember it was about the same uproar when in Real Mourinho moved Ramos from right back position to central defence. Everyone was complaining, and look how it turned out for the player and for the club.

absolutely true! Thanks for bringing that up! Although Ramos sucks on both imo he sucks less in the CB position.

[didierforever 7,349]

Chelsea Football Club is not a recovery house for players who are not in form. Two can play your game

oh really? so tell me what do u do if a player is out of form. never play him until he magically gets in form after waking up one morning, or keep him benched till the season ends till he loses all his confidence.

read my post carefully. i said "yes, very true dude because CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB is all about developing oscar not about getting the right results and the right balance. LOL-MAX post. "

do u understand what right balance is? does right balance mean playing mata 90 minutes of every game with no consideration to his form? hell NO.

so please read a post CAREFULLY and INTELLIGENTLY before attacking a fellow poster.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

but the question is, for Kev to be there does it require Witsel to be by his side? I think that's the point. As I said in a post just five minutes ago I don't know Kev well enough to see how his holding capabilities are to play in the position and do not compromise. Also let's not forget the abysmal difference between NT and club football. What works in NT's - especially in Europe because you guys only play 5 teams and most times 3 of those teams are beyond pathetic (I personally think Belgium group to be weak as Croatia and Serbia both being way past their better years). Did he play like this for Bremen and it worked? Who was the partner in the pivot?

He did play a few matches in the pivot for Bremen and did well. But, tbh, he was so much better, both technically and tactically, than all the Bremen players that I think he would have shined in any midfield position. But I have seen enough of him to be convinced that he can be a decent cover for the pivot at the very least; definitely better than suited than Oscar or Luiz, for example.

But like I said earlier, this discussion has nothing to do with the one here because, even if he is suited for the pivot, he should NOT be played there just so we can squeeze more attacking midfielders into the team.

[meetdoscar 335]

yes, very true dude because CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB is all about developing oscar not about getting the right results and the right balance. LOL-MAX post.

If you are going to highlight my post highlight all of it and not incomplete sentences that give a different meaning to the whole picture i present to prove your bias towards another player else you may kindly re-write your own opinion it is allowed.

[Barbara 15,149]

He did play a few matches in the pivot for Bremen and did well. But, tbh, he was so much better, both technically and tactically, than all the Bremen players that I think he would have shined in any midfield position. But I have seen enough of him to be convinced that he can be a decent cover for the pivot at the very least; definitely better than suited than Oscar or Luiz, for example.

But like I said earlier, this discussion has nothing to do with the one here because, even if he is suited for the pivot, he should NOT be played there just so we can squeeze more attacking midfielders into the team.

but would he strengthen our pivot? I think we should always take into consideration the partners we have available for them. Khedira can play in Madrid's pivot because he has Xabi by his side. Busquets - as much as I hate him - is a great guy in the pivot. So is Schweinsteiger and it's easier to place technical players by their sides. Our guys for the pivot are Ramires, Lamps, Mikel, Essien and Marco. Playing Kev there would strengthen the zone or expose our defense more? If he strengthens the whole thing, than we can afford to have Mata in the CAM...

[didierforever 7,349]

and now i read How long is Mata going to be allowed to live off of previous seasons reputations?

and the answer to that was "forever and ever".

6 matches. 6 fucking matches out of which he startes just 2 and mata is already living off his previous season reputation.

un-fucking-believable. disgraceful.