Pivot is the issue?!?

[Joker10 946]

I am not trying to come at you or anything, but you seem very certain about your opinion :-)

KDB did play at a pure CM position at Genk and arguably played his best football there - even according to himself, the media, pundits and fans at Genk. Even now at Bremen - if you look at the forum, fans scream him to a more central role when he is played on the wing. Admitted, when he plays there, it is not in a defensive CM role (an old school 6). They have someone else do tha job there - as will probably be the case here if he gets the CM spot.

So ruling him out on that position is way premature. Not all pivot systems have two identical CM's as I indicated, so that is why I think with his capabilities (the speed of passing, accuracy, long range and vision) he will flourish - and make the team flourish as well - if he is paired alongside a mich more defensive oriented pivot player.

I've seen most of his games at Genk and now watch Bremen for him .... He is really good in transition, which is what we lack. Also, tackling might not be his thing, but a CM that is on the grond is a passed one. Good CM's make steals and position themselves well ... Competencies KDB has imo.

Buying for the more attacking CM pivot position, would be foolish. This guy has Hazard potential and is actually starting to reach it right now. Time will tell.

You probably/definitely have seen more of De Bruyne, but the way i see him he is a CM/AM hybrid similar to a younger Lampard. To put De Bruyne in a pivot role is a waste imo, he will be much more restricted then the role he is playing right now. The kid has a great shot in him, great attacking movement, and can make worldly final passes. His potential is up there with Mata and Hazard, but not as a pivot CM.

If you just want to see him accommodated into the starting squad, then a 4-3-3 makes that more realistic.

[Stingray 9,441]

You probably/definitely have seen more of De Bruyne, but the way i see him he is a CM/AM hybrid similar to a younger Lampard. To put De Bruyne in a pivot role is a waste imo, he will be much more restricted then the role he is playing right now. The kid has a great shot in him, great attacking movement, and can make worldly final passes. His potential is up there with Mata and Hazard, but not as a pivot CM.

If you just want to see him accommodated into the starting squad, then a 4-3-3 makes that more realistic.

True. A 4231 is a succesfull fad going for extinction soon, i believe. What about we get a manager that fits all that world class talent (Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Kdb) into a system that works for them. If I was the Cfc hr manager, that would be my prerequisite for a manager job profile.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Anyway onto the pivot. I think when you said that Mikel has a restricted game you are surely joking, I don't want to get into this but Mikel could do with someone like Song (in a role he had at Arsenal, where he had a bit more freedom due to playing next to Arteta) next to him. Song really fine tuned his game and got was it 11 or 12 assists from CM, which is quite impressive. Hes a rounded player, can attack and defend equally well and would be perfect.

I don't want to see Oscar wasted next to Mikel tbh, one of the ebst parts in his game is his technical ability and the fact he drops t oask for the ball to help his teammates out, which ultimately frees up space and drags players out of positions. Playin him next to Mikel would be pointless, his passing range is good and his defensive work rate is too but still hes in my eyes a number 10 more than anything.

Also we must go back to 4-3-3 if we want to become this tiki taka like team. 4-3-3 is the perfect formation for it. Can change into a 3-4-3, 3-4-1-2, 3-3-1-3 or a 4-1-4-1 or 5-4-1 depending on what match situation. The players we have suit it better.

So Oscar wont play in cm. Switch to 4:3:3 is also need. Mikel has tons of potential, he could be great long shot taker, and expand his passing as well with proper coach to teach him. We need someone more creative alonside him, but also that same player must be decent defender and hard worker because Mikel natural work is weak (at least now).

I saw Mikel in afcon and he had brilliant passing, also making two assists in single game. Here, Rafa probably orders him to not play offensive but always make side passes etc. Kills his game basicaly. DM is essential in control of midfield, but Rafa has Mikel only as side player. Mikel should get major role in midfield and with proper motivation and training (given by new coach obv) he would be great. About his partner, I believe that it could be either someone like Moutinho, someone like Song or someone like Kdb. But probably we will go and buy new Dm and CM in summer, limiting Kdb as well Oscar.

Song and Modric/Moutinho would be awesome in summer, but that will mean one thing. Either Oscar or Kdb will be forever only bench player.

Is something like this realy possible in near future;

Kdb-Mikel-Oscar

Mata-Lukaku-Hazard

?

4:3:3 is necessary, but Lukaku will never be tiki taka player. Midfield also looks fragile. Also if we signed Song, what will happen to Rambo?

First thing is new coach and then the board should think twice before buying someone just because they can. We cant afford any new players that will not fit the plan. Buying Isco would be waste of money now. So getting proper coach is the most important thing now, he will need to motivate team, make players play better and buy only players we need.

[Mundaka 243]

Kdb-Mikel-Oscar

Mata-Lukaku-Hazard

?

4:3:3 is necessary, but Lukaku will never be tiki taka player. Midfield also looks fragile. Also if we signed Song, what will happen to Rambo?

Yep thats the way to go if we dont sign anyone, could become superb once oscar and Kdb get used to it, they can solve it defensively by good positioning, especially with Mikel, they both have the awareness/intelligence to do that, btw in pl you have to use a targetman i think, did any team try playing with a false 9 already anyways? I have no idea?

Song isn't needed btw :/ we have mikel or luiz/ake(or other youthplayer) as backup, we need a complete midfielder (also good in passing/ with vision)

[BlueLyon 9,359]

We should start realise that one or two of Oscar, Mata, Hazard, Kdb wont suceed here. Simply. Everyone is best when given free role and that is only one place in team (maybr two). Either Kdb or Oscar will have to play in CM in order to suceed. Mata and Hazard will always be wingers, but Mata is best in free role.

Having

Song(upgrade on Rambo)-Mikel-Kdb(free flowing CM)

Mata(free flowing winger)-striker-Hazard(dribbler)

In system 4:3:3 is best option. Only requires 1 new player, wont harm development of Oscar and kdb, will give control in midfield. Eventualy we need to think of who that striker will be and buy another class CB to replace Terry.

Song-Mikel-Kdb(Oscar)

Mata-Lukaku/Cavani-Hazard

Whooaaa!

[Mundaka 243]

But why do you want 2 holding midfielders? :/ Song aint a rambo upgrade imo, in my opinion if you compare him do it with mikel...

+ KDB doesnt need a free role to make the difference.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

KDB can also play as a winger.He may not be the fastest but he has the skills,world class crossing ability and ability to score goals.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

But why do you want 2 holding midfielders? :/ Song aint a rambo upgrade imo, in my opinion if you compare him do it with mikel...

+ KDB doesnt need a free role to make the difference.

Because Song isnt typical DM, he is more of box to box player with all from long/short passing, vision, strenght, tackles, interceptions. While Mikel alone isnt fastest, Song would cover up for him.

And with Song and Mikel, Kdb would have very open role as he would focus on attack more.

Alternative to Song would be Witsel.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Yep thats the way to go if we dont sign anyone, could become superb once oscar and Kdb get used to it, they can solve it defensively by good positioning, especially with Mikel, they both have the awareness/intelligence to do that, btw in pl you have to use a targetman i think, did any team try playing with a false 9 already anyways? I have no idea?

Song isn't needed btw :/ we have mikel or luiz/ake(or other youthplayer) as backup, we need a complete midfielder (also good in passing/ with vision)

Not a false 9, but somenone with better connection to the team. Rvp, Aguero, Villa type of striker. But even Lukaku would be great, he just isnt technicaly as gifted.

And who would that complete midfielder be if I may ask? Song is great in everything as you said. He is a bit of Xabi Alonso if you watched him last season. We dont need someone super brilliant like Modric or Moutinho in midfield as we have enough playmaking vision in Mata, Oscar, Hazard and Debruyne. BUT Song (with Mikel and Kdb/Oscar) still offers much better control in midfield than Rambo-Mikel and also makes team stronger. Two problems solved.

[Mundaka 243]

I see, well yeh, our attacking-minded players would need to do less defensive work, i agree on that but i dont think it would work with those 2...

Songs passing/vision is decent but not good enough to go with mikel for the role you have in mind, our linkup/possesion play against defensive teams would be terrible i think.

[Mundaka 243]

And who would that complete midfielder be if I may ask? Song is great in everything as you said. He is a bit of Xabi Alonso if you watched him last season. We dont need someone super brilliant like Modric or Moutinho in midfield as we have enough playmaking vision in Mata, Oscar, Hazard and Debruyne. BUT Song (with Mikel and Kdb/Oscar) still offers much better control in midfield than Rambo-Mikel and also makes team stronger. Two problems solved.

I never said such thing... and i rate alonso way way higher.

I do agree with you on them giving more control , but see my other reply

[BlueLyon 9,359]

I see, well yeh, our attacking-minded players would need to do less defensive work, i agree on that but i dont think it would work with those 2...

Songs passing/vision is decent but not good enough to go with mikel for the role you have in mind, our linkup/possesion play against defensive teams would be terrible i think.

Kdb or Oscar would link up against defensive teams. And with proper striker, we should be way more effective.

As for Song goes, he isnt as good as Alonso, but he still has brilliant vision and control (11 assists last season and that action vs Dortmund was brilliant).

Song is similar to Yaya Toure in terms of ability. While player like Mikel is best at defending, Song type of player can also penetrate defence with long balls, key passes and strenght. His long shooting isnt bad either. Song has all what box to box midfielder needs, he is mold of Deep lying playmaker with bit less creativity and power DM.

Also this would be roles:

Mikel-same role as he has now; protecting back four.

Song-b2b player with power play, but since he played for Arsenal and Barca, he can play tiki taka too. Perfect for moving ball through midfield (something similar to Rambo, just more technicaly gifted)

Kdb/Oscar-typical deep half free roaming playmaker who will find Mata and Hazard in fast passing game and take long shots.

Mata and Hazard-less defensive work (specialy for Mata). Both would roam on wings and around penalty box on opponent half. Killer passes or lone dribbling/shooting.

[The Mak 4,459]

I agree about 4-3-3. It just makes more sense for the players we have at the moment.

It's funny, when AVB was here, he was hell bent on playing 4-3-3, even though we didn't have the players for it. And now we're hell bent on playing 4-2-3-1 and, once again, don't have the players for it, especially in the pivot.

It'd just make more sense for next season to go with 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1:

CDM: Mikel/Romeu/New CDM/DLP + Chalobah/Josh/Aké
CM: Ramires/Oscar/KDB/Lamps (maybe) + Josh
CAM: Oscar/Mata/Hazard/KDB/Lamps
Wingers: Mata/Hazard/Moses/New Winger + Piazon

(I say + because those players will most likely go out on loan)

[Korea 734]

We should start realise that one or two of Oscar, Mata, Hazard, Kdb wont suceed here. Simply. Everyone is best when given free role and that is only one place in team (maybr two). Either Kdb or Oscar will have to play in CM in order to suceed. Mata and Hazard will always be wingers, but Mata is best in free role.

Having

Song(upgrade on Rambo)-Mikel-Kdb(free flowing CM)

Mata(free flowing winger)-striker-Hazard(dribbler)

In system 4:3:3 is best option. Only requires 1 new player, wont harm development of Oscar and kdb, will give control in midfield. Eventualy we need to think of who that striker will be and buy another class CB to replace Terry.

Song-Mikel-Kdb(Oscar)

Mata-Lukaku/Cavani-Hazard

Whooaaa!

In the long term, I can see one of the three amigos leaving Chelsea... Most likely, its going to be either Hazard or Oscar...

[BlueLyon 9,359]

In the long term, I can see one of the three amigos leaving Chelsea... Most likely, its going to be either Hazard or Oscar...

Well I would say either Oscar or Kdb because of lack of playtime or Hazard because of going to spain-rm or barca. But hey, we never sold players recently if they were in top form. I would hate to see Hazard leave once he reaches his potential.

[Korea 734]

Well I would say either Oscar or Kdb because of lack of playtime or Hazard because of going to spain-rm or barca. But hey, we never sold players recently if they were in top form. I would hate to see Hazard leave once he reaches his potential.

MATA: I think due to his age, he will leave, only if he regresses like Torres. (What top team can he go realistically now or near future?)

HAZARD: BARCA not a good fit for him... BARCA presses like animals, especially their wingers (VILLA DONT LIKE!).. Unless, he can overtake Messi as the false number 9, I really don't see him going... Also, where we he go on RM, unless, your stating that Ronaldo leaves in the near future and they don't sign Bale as his replacement...

OSCAR: To be honest, I think he has the best peak out of the three... Usually, people with speed, peak early since their athletic attributes decline with age, however, I don't think Oscar uses his speed or physical attributes...SO, his best is yet to come

KDB: Never seen him play, so NC..

[Korea 734]

Because Song isnt typical DM, he is more of box to box player with all from long/short passing, vision, strenght, tackles, interceptions. While Mikel alone isnt fastest, Song would cover up for him.

And with Song and Mikel, Kdb would have very open role as he would focus on attack more.

Alternative to Song would be Witsel.

I remember when Arsenal sold Song, all their posters stated how much of a defensive liability Song was to them... I did not watch many Arsenal games last year, so I have no clue..

[Joker10 946]

MATA: I think due to his age, he will leave, only if he regresses like Torres. (What top team can he go realistically now or near future?)

HAZARD: BARCA not a good fit for him... BARCA presses like animals, especially their wingers (VILLA DONT LIKE!).. Unless, he can overtake Messi as the false number 9, I really don't see him going... Also, where we he go on RM, unless, your stating that Ronaldo leaves in the near future...

OSCAR: To be honest, I think he has the best peak out of the three... Usually, people with speed, peak early since their athletic attributes decline with age, however, I don't think Oscar uses his speed or physical attributes...

KDB: Never seen him play, so NC..

Real Madrid??

I actually could see Real Madrid bidding for him, next summer or maybe even this summer depending on what happens with Ronaldo. With Mata being former Castilla player he would undoubtedly be a popular signing among the supporters.