The only place to be

He'll get those chances and no-one is saying he shouldn't, but it's hard for a manager to stick with a player when other players are in good form and he's not doing much in the chances he's given. He's a great player but we've got other promising/great players in that same position. He's being kept out of the team by Brazil's number 10 - people seem to be overlooking Oscar's fine form.

Are you referring to the height of the horse itself, or how high up it is (on a mountain for instance)? Wouldn't that be awarded to the horse rather than the person sitting on him? Tell you what, have a think about it and PM me so I can delete it and no-one else has to read such horse shit.

I tend to agree. A few of his tackles were a bit over-enthusiastic but he worked his bollocks off and will hopefully take something from this game. Looking forward to seeing him progress under Jose because he plays in an area we're in dire need of numbers.

Is there an award for best/worst overreaction of the season? Is it too early to award it for this gem?

Some of the pessimism in this thread is fucking pathetic. It's a derby for fucks sake and people are already talking about slumps....support your club, get behind the lads or don't bother. Just come back when we're back at the top of the league. JT back in for Luiz, Rami back in for Van Ginkel and Schurrle in for Hazard. Would also like to see Bertrand given a game, but anything could happen right now.

Keep it to PMs. Shouldn't have taken it off-topic. Because the discussion was about what each player offers. Both are probably more creative and attacking than a Javi Martinez so we're not discussing them in terms of being a purely destructive player. At least that's my view.

Again, we're talking about the goal threat they both offer, and I'm basing that on the EXACT same criteria for both - what they've shown over their short careers and the skills they both possess (in my view). You're using different criteria for both (one competitive game for Van Ginkel and a 3-4 year period in Josh's case). if you can't see why that isn't fair then we'll just have to agree to disagree, but please note that I wasn't the one who came in and called someone else high for their views. What happened subsequently was unnecessary so apologies if anyone is upset I took it off-topic. Anyone who has a problem with me can just PM me rather than fucking up threads.

No, we win games and EXIST because Chelsea supporters SUPPORTED this club long before you and I existed. Those guys dug deep when it wasn't easy because they loved this club, and now people like you come along and write off our chances after one fucking game. Sorry, but certain people rub me the wrong way so I'm going to point that out to them. If you don't like it put me on ignore.

Again, you're talking about the way he was used in ONE competitive game. He isn't as good as Modric, and they're very different players right now. Nat I believe does deserve a shot at a spot. Because you're judging Josh on the way he was used under other managers, even at other teams but not affording Van Ginkel the same criteria. You said yourself you've only seen him play one competitive game, but from that you decided to imply I was high. That just seems unfair....CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB.

It's not that at all. It's more a case of 'don't comment on a player's ability when you've seen him play one competitive match'. In fact I thought that was pretty obvious. As for my choice of words, if they upset or offend you then put me on ignore. If you want to have a pop at me do it over PM. Stop piping up and moaning like a hysterical old woman whenever I reply to a post, ok?

Writing us off after one game....implying our players don't have the metal (sic). Support this team, not just when it's easy but when it's tough. I swear some people just want success handed to them on a plate without having to suffer even a little bit for it.

Oh, that explains a lot. So you thought you'd pick a fight with me despite not having seen Van Ginkel play in a competitive game before last night. That seems perplexing.

So you're saying that Van Ginkel isn't a goal threat because of the way Jose has used him in competitive games for CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB, but you're judging Josh by a completely different criteria because he hasn't been picked by Jose in a competitive game for CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB? That seems unfair....CHELSEA FOOTBALL CLUB.

So you're basing your view of MVG on just his Chelsea career? I would love Josh to kick on and be the player we hoped he would be but I think your view on their respective qualities are misguided. And I managed that without implying you must be high.

I wrote that based on their short careers that Van Ginkel offers a greater goal threat. I stand by that. Can you explain why that must make me on a high?

Sorry to correct you, but I don't think anyone has said he should be sold only that he could be if he doesn't find a place in the team and other players begin to shine.

Strength in the tackle, a right foot, a physical presence in midfield and based on their short careers a much greater goal threat. Put simply, bottle.

So you don't know what type of effect it will have on him? Again, I'm not picking a fight but I'd hate for someone to read your post about a player's mentality and assume you had some kind of insight or knowledge about them. The man could've been at Cobham an hour before everyone else looking at the game tape and picking up things to put into his next performance. I don't know - but neither do you.

My definition may be different, but I think he's been a very good player for us this term and offers a lot going forward. We'll just have to agree to disagree. So was Gary Neville. What he always had was support from the player in front and that's what Ivanovic was screaming out for (quite literally) last night. Again, we have problems in our team but Ivanovic really isn't one of them.

Yep. He's not an idiot. He knows that right now he has one of the best coaches in world football at the helm and the clusterfuck of last season was a result of a lack of patience - why else would he re-hire Mourinho? I pray he has the patience that I think he does, and I hope the Chelsea supporters do too. It's at times like this when the wheat is sorted from the chaff because supporting a club isn't just about getting your new shirt with the gold Premier League badges printed on and the commemorative Champions League stitching. I don't. I just expect him to do a little better than he has done, and for me not to worry when he comes on. Like I said, I like him and he was our best player over the last two years but I've not seen any reason for him to be selected over Oscar in the number 10 shirt. Oscar is playing well. Not if there are adequate replacements. Oscar has shown that he is starting to fulfil that massive potential whilst De Bruyne seems to have all the tools needed to be a top-class player. 6 players for 3 positions is looking like a bit of a problem right now.

Utter bollocks. I hate this complete bullshit that people spout about sportsmen in any sport not having a 'desire to win'. You think sportsmen are just given a gift that they don't have to work at? You think its just luck? Like fuck is it. The ones at the top level, the ones at our club, have slogged their guts out and have a will to win and succeed that some people simply won't understand. So don't say that these men don't have 'a desire to win' because I personally think that's the biggest cop out about sportsmen and sportswomen that is spouted nowadays. Nothing personal, but it's just something I hate seeing anyone suggest in such a casual manner.

Exactly. Again, anyone expecting miracles was setting themselves up for a fall even by comparing this team to Jose's team in 2004. We're a team in the process of being built and we have a winner at the helm doing it. What he needs is patience and time from the owners and the supporters.

Really? I haven't had the pleasure of meeting him so I'm not entirely sure what his character is like, but you're saying that he's one of those guys who goes into his shell after making a few mistakes rather than working harder in training the next day and coming back stronger? Is that what you're saying?

I think you're downplaying him. I think he's become a very good player going forward, and Azpi got plenty of stick about his crosses last season so let's not do that thing where players become better in their absence. Ivanovic has been one of our best players this season and the least of our issues.

Mata is only our best player when he's playing the best football. He's not irreplaceable and to be quite honest Oscar has had an impressive start to the season now that he's been given the chance. I think you're completely wrong about Roman by the way. He's not Brazil's number 10 (technically Neymar is, but hey ho) for nothing.