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Jason

closed St. Patrick's Athletic 0-4 Chelsea

Started by Jason,

77 posts in this topic

Its pre season so we can judge and claim all sorts of stuff, but I loved seeing us be much more direct, simply move much faster, and we can suddenly do crosses which can be a huge weapon here and there. I loved it.....good stuff imo.

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2 hours ago, Tomo said:

With the style Lampard wants to play he's not going to discard Jorginho. It seems so many people are taking his connection to Sarri a little bit too seriously and by that thinking he'd be obsolete without him, I will be amazed if Jorginho isn't a starter this year and I'd wager his role won't be a million miles from what it was last season. By the same token Baka's days are numbered, not suited to the progressive possesion based game we are playing, he won't see a competitive minute that I am sure.

I agree with the fullbacks, hopefully Reece James lives up to his reputation when he's fit again.

As much as I praise Jorginho last year I don't see see him in double pivot. His passing range is not great and he is not exactly mobile. 

Last year, he was asked to sit in front of

Rudi - Luiz - azpi

That make sense, he can get the ball and move it side to side. 

In this double pivot, he is asked to pick up the ball and bring the ball forward because the two fb push up high. That is not exactly his strength. 

The way we build up remind me of mourinho. I remember very well in United he ask matic to drop to the backline but not between the CB but on the left side, I can see him asking kova to do exactly the same and let him bring the ball forward. 

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14 minutes ago, communicate said:

As much as I praise Jorginho last year I don't see see him in double pivot. His passing range is not great and he is not exactly mobile. 

Last year, he was asked to sit in front of

Rudi - Luiz - azpi

That make sense, he can get the ball and move it side to side. 

In this double pivot, he is asked to pick up the ball and bring the ball forward because the two fb push up high. That is not exactly his strength. 

 

He was probably our only midfielder last season who looked to make things happen with the amount of forward passes he's made. More than anyone. He plays in a double pivot with Italy and performs fine. In fact, he still leads the transition even though Italy play with a double pivot. 

 

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5 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

He was probably our only midfielder last season who looked to make things happen with the amount of forward passes he's made. More than anyone. He plays in a double pivot with Italy and performs fine. In fact, he still leads the transition even though Italy play with a double pivot. 

 

I have just checked Italy lineup in nation league to see how Italy use him in double pivot but Italy play with barella - Jorginho - veratti. That is more of 433 rather than double pivot 

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16 minutes ago, communicate said:

I have just checked Italy lineup in nation league to see how Italy use him in double pivot but Italy play with barella - Jorginho - veratti. That is more of 433 rather than double pivot 

Lineup's are misleading. Watch how Italy operate and you will see Jorginho and Verratti always covering each other's space with Barella the CAM. 

Note that I agree with you, that Jorginho is best suited as the lone holder. However, he can operate with a partner next to him. 

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He'll do just fine with Kante beside him, Lamps will more than likely go that route, then let Bark Kova Loftis and Mount do the attacking.

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7 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Lineup's are misleading. Watch how Italy operate and you will see Jorginho and Verratti always covering each other's space with Barella the CAM. 

Note that I agree with you, that Jorginho is best suited as the lone holder. However, he can operate with a partner next to him. 

Any video on Jorginho playing double pivot? 

I found one on barella against Greece and that is pretty obvious a 3 midfield rather than double pivot

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Yeah I think people are reading far too much into this can Jorginho play or not play in a double pivot, the guy in the last few years at Napoli was one of the better midfield players in his position in Europe, hes not just someone who can only play as a 6 in a 3 man MF. Hes played in a 4231 with Italy and also under Benitez with Napoli when he was there. Although a good system or tactical set up is a huge benefit, it is massively important you have very good players in key positions, that is more important and can compensate for the tactical set up not being the best (likes of Hazard, Willian - that year he was POTY - and Diego Costa in previous seasons getting us points when we were hopeless tactically or performance wise comes to mind). 

Binning or benching Jorginho would be one of the worst decisions Lampard will ever make as a manager. If we want to play quick, direct football going through the lines then Jorginho or someone of that mould is a must. Yes he didnt always look great at times last season when the team struggled but I think everyone could see by May he had shown his worth with a very good back end of the season for him on a personal level. I think as well hes had a transitional year where he had to adjust to a much quicker standard of football in terms of when you lose the ball and am expecting big things from him this year.

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On 7/15/2019 at 8:27 PM, OneMoSalah said:

Yeah I think people are reading far too much into this can Jorginho play or not play in a double pivot, the guy in the last few years at Napoli was one of the better midfield players in his position in Europe, hes not just someone who can only play as a 6 in a 3 man MF. Hes played in a 4231 with Italy and also under Benitez with Napoli when he was there. Although a good system or tactical set up is a huge benefit, it is massively important you have very good players in key positions, that is more important and can compensate for the tactical set up not being the best (likes of Hazard, Willian - that year he was POTY - and Diego Costa in previous seasons getting us points when we were hopeless tactically or performance wise comes to mind). 

Binning or benching Jorginho would be one of the worst decisions Lampard will ever make as a manager. If we want to play quick, direct football going through the lines then Jorginho or someone of that mould is a must. Yes he didnt always look great at times last season when the team struggled but I think everyone could see by May he had shown his worth with a very good back end of the season for him on a personal level. I think as well hes had a transitional year where he had to adjust to a much quicker standard of football in terms of when you lose the ball and am expecting big things from him this year.

My biggest concern is not whether he "can" play as double pivot but whether he will be effective there and whether he will be our starter. For me kova - kante are my no 1 midfield option for double pivot. Bakayoko to back kante and maybe jorgi for kova. 

It is obvious that Barkley and mount will be our no 10, maybe even pulisic too. 

 

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5 hours ago, communicate said:

My biggest concern is not whether he "can" play as double pivot but whether he will be effective there and whether he will be our starter. For me kova - kante are my no 1 midfield option for double pivot. Bakayoko to back kante and maybe jorgi for kova. 

It is obvious that Barkley and mount will be our no 10, maybe even pulisic too. 

 

Kovacic over Jorginho? Dont see it personally. I do think we will end up playing 433 of some variation eventually, even with Frank preferring 4231 based on his season at Derby (could argue 4231 is a variation of 433 regardless). 

In terms of being effective in a double pivot or not, with the ball Jorginho will more than likely drop deeper than his partner anyway to get on the ball from the likes of the CBs and control the tempo of the game, his position may be slightly different but it won't affect how he plays and then obviously Kantes biggest strength is getting the ball back. Jorginho also showed huge defensibe improvements, yes playing in a 2 isnt the same as playing as a sole holder and Kovacic can play every midfield position which gives him a chance of playing a lot but I still really dont see him playing ahead of Jorginho. I mean if your concerned about Jorginho not being effective in a double pivot then I dont know how your not more concerned about someone who is tactically inferior and also takes much much less risks with the ball as well as having a more limited passing range.

I really think this will be an issue for Frank this season, fitting in the likes of Barkley, Kovacic, Baka, and Mason when Rubens back because Ruben if he can recapture his performances from the back end of the past season, will be one of the first names on the team sheet as well as Kante 100% and I would stick my neck out and say Jorginho will make the starting midfield for us this season too most weeks.

I would say we are a bit heavy in MF, Baka is potentially a good option to be a back up for Kante. Drinkwater and Barkley (depending on Franks plans for Mason) could find themselves not featuring as often as theyd want to.

Competition is good but realistically we have got Drinkwater, Barkley, Jorginho, Kante, Bakayoko, Kovacic, Ruben, Mount all competing for 3 spaces in the line up every week. Sure some play more advanced like Ross and Mason as well as the fact Mateo and Ruben are more than capable of playing as out and out 10s (dont forget Pulisic and Willian are able to play there too but theyll play wide I would imagine) as well but realistically when Ruben comes back to full fitness we are probably more stocked than we need to be. As I mentioned above Drinkwater, Barkley, Bakayoko are 3 players who could find themselves on the peripheral at somepoint this upcoming season. 

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12 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Kovacic over Jorginho? Dont see it personally. I do think we will end up playing 433 of some variation eventually, even with Frank preferring 4231 based on his season at Derby (could argue 4231 is a variation of 433 regardless). 

In terms of being effective in a double pivot or not, with the ball Jorginho will more than likely drop deeper than his partner anyway to get on the ball from the likes of the CBs and control the tempo of the game, his position may be slightly different but it won't affect how he plays and then obviously Kantes biggest strength is getting the ball back. Jorginho also showed huge defensibe improvements, yes playing in a 2 isnt the same as playing as a sole holder and Kovacic can play every midfield position which gives him a chance of playing a lot but I still really dont see him playing ahead of Jorginho. I mean if your concerned about Jorginho not being effective in a double pivot then I dont know how your not more concerned about someone who is tactically inferior and also takes much much less risks with the ball as well as having a more limited passing range.

I really think this will be an issue for Frank this season, fitting in the likes of Barkley, Kovacic, Baka, and Mason when Rubens back because Ruben if he can recapture his performances from the back end of the past season, will be one of the first names on the team sheet as well as Kante 100% and I would stick my neck out and say Jorginho will make the starting midfield for us this season too most weeks.

I would say we are a bit heavy in MF, Baka is potentially a good option to be a back up for Kante. Drinkwater and Barkley (depending on Franks plans for Mason) could find themselves not featuring as often as theyd want to.

Competition is good but realistically we have got Drinkwater, Barkley, Jorginho, Kante, Bakayoko, Kovacic, Ruben, Mount all competing for 3 spaces in the line up every week. Sure some play more advanced like Ross and Mason as well as the fact Mateo and Ruben are more than capable of playing as out and out 10s (dont forget Pulisic and Willian are able to play there too but theyll play wide I would imagine) as well but realistically when Ruben comes back to full fitness we are probably more stocked than we need to be. As I mentioned above Drinkwater, Barkley, Bakayoko are 3 players who could find themselves on the peripheral at somepoint this upcoming season. 

Let see what will happen defensively when we play jorginho in 4231 next to kante. 

Kante - jorgi

Rudi - luiz

That is how we will defend. It mean Jorginho has to cover winger area. I can see many nightmare scenario. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, communicate said:

Let see what will happen defensively when we play jorginho in 4231 next to kante. 

Kante - jorgi

Rudi - luiz

That is how we will defend. It mean Jorginho has to cover winger area. I can see many nightmare scenario. 

 

 

 

People said the same when we had the blip last season but he adapted to the league and showed he is more than able to do the defensive side of the game. Generally dont think it will be as huge an issue. 

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People said the same when we had the blip last season but he adapted to the league and showed he is more than able to do the defensive side of the game. Generally dont think it will be as huge an issue. 
Jorginho's defending is unbelievably underrated.

He's terrible when defending in open space, as he gets beat by strength and speed pretty easily. But he is brilliant at pressing, brilliant at interceptions, and works tremendously hard. He is a great "team defender" if that makes sense. He also isn't afraid to stuck in.

I just get tires of the myth that jorginho is terrible at the defensive side of the game. It's just not true, especially when pressing is the most important way to defend in modern football.

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9 hours ago, Miguelito said:



He's terrible when defending in open space, as he gets beat by strength and speed pretty easily. 

 

You basically just said that he cannot play 4231 where the two fb go up. 

 

 

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You basically just said that he cannot play 4231 where the two fb go up. 
 
 
No, I didn't. That's simply one part of defending in that formation and situation. That is not going to happen near as often as you make it sound. The pros FAR outweigh the cons of his defending. My whole point was showing the bigger picture but you decided to narrow it down to one type of situation.

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1 hour ago, Miguelito said:

No, I didn't. That's simply one part of defending in that formation and situation. That is not going to happen near as often as you make it sound. The pros FAR outweigh the cons of his defending. My whole point was showing the bigger picture but you decided to narrow it down to one type of situation.

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Transition defense is extremely important. It is even more important in EPL where the game is faster and more up and down. Plus Lampard want to play faster and more direct which mean you will lose the ball more which mean more transition opportunity for other team. 

If we play 4231 with 2 fb push up, that will happen, if one of the fb stay back. Either kante or Jorginho need to push up, but everyone want kante to be the deepest midfielder otherwise we are going to play the same as Sarri last season 

 

 

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