🇫🇷 Tiemoue Bakayoko

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

2 hours ago, gadget said:

was 21 when we first brought him, wasn't an academy product 

Exactly.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

2 hours ago, gadget said:

was 21 when we first brought him, wasn't an academy product 

For what it's worth, I posted, elsewhere, to say that I didn't rate Nemanja after watching clips of him before we signed him first time around.

My appraisal then was that he needed far too long on the ball and that he was over fond of flighted passes. Passes which took too long to reach their targets, and which were more difficult for the receiver to control, than if they had been played along the floor. I'd like to claim that at least this makes me consistent about his contribution but, in fact, I was very enthusiastic about his performances in the first six months after his return. In my opinion, he represented a step forward from the players who were the alternatives at the time. Now however, I feel it is time to take another step.

Two things to be fair to Nemanja: -

1. He is more selective with the flighted passes now, and does a better job with choosing that route only when it is the best option. In his youth he seemed to do it for style. (Or at least he did in the clips I saw.)

2. In my opinion he is much better suited to the position he switched to at Benfica, than he was to the AM role he was slated for when we first signed him.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

51 minutes ago, Chelsea? said:

Do you think managers want youngsters to fail? That post makes it seem like Conte knows Charlobah is good but he doesn't want him to succeed, so he only plays him when we really need to win and sit him when we have the win at hand. 

Charlobah is still here because he has impressed Conte. But maybe he's not starting because Matic and Kante have impressed him more. 

Chalobah isnt good enough yet to win us a CL trophy, which is the next step in our progress. 

I would like to see he and RLC get loaned out for next year. 

I nearly clicked the like button but can only agree with half of the last sentence. I think the utility of loans has come to an end for Nat. For me, his options are to convince Antonio that he is ready for a bigger role, accept his current role, or find a new permanent home.

I wholeheartedly support everything else you say in the post above.

[lucio 5,418]

59 minutes ago, Chelsea? said:

Do you think managers want youngsters to fail? That post makes it seem like Conte knows Charlobah is good but he doesn't want him to succeed, so he only plays him when we really need to win and sit him when we have the win at hand. 

Charlobah is still here because he has impressed Conte. But maybe he's not starting because Matic and Kante have impressed him more. 

Chalobah isnt good enough yet to win us a CL trophy, which is the next step in our progress. 

I would like to see he and RLC get loaned out for next year. 

was pretty much what I was saying, he's impressed enough to earn the trust of being a backup. Which is saying a lot considering we had mikel

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

2 hours ago, BoyBlue96 said:

We are not a club that plays youth. We're a club who only buy players. It's in our DNA.

And it won't change.

I really believe that when the glorious day comes that we find a youngster who the manager really believes in, that kid will be trusted and selected.

2 hours ago, BoyBlue96 said:

RLC got hyped up and got a new contract with a big pay rise. Ridiculous business if you ask me. Chelsea fans even claimed he's better than Dele Alli...

In terms of technical ability, I believe that RLC is indeed better equipped than Dele Ali. In terms of what the two lads do with their tools however, there is no comparison. Sadly.

2 hours ago, BoyBlue96 said:

Conte didn't play much youth at Juventus and he won't at Chelsea.

I think that is a trait which is prevalent in Italian managers; they value experience. Our Italians, Capello with England, and various Italian national team managers have exhibited it.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

20 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

IMO he is almost good to go as starter. I always thought we need a ball playing CM, but more I look the games, the more it seems we realy need a Matic improvement. Someone quicker, more agile and with better technique. While its true, Eden needs to get in middle to collect the ball a lot because Matic cant bring the ball further up, it makes sense to get someone who can dictate and spray the balls to our attackers. But at same time, Matic role as defender is crucial. It allows Kante to roam, it gives balance to our defense. A playmaker would ruin all that, so unless you know perfect Matic/Cesc combo player we can buy, then we simply cant afford to have playmaker in middle. Many say we dont realy need height and strenght, and while its true, small players can work, I saw enough of PL to know there is no way we would play two small guys in middle of pitch whole season. Even the likes of Dahoud, he aint small by no mean but seriously anyone believes he would fit next to Kante? Anyway, the solution as long we play with two men in middle is Matic improvement and Bakayoko is everything you need. Perhaps even stronger than Matic, certainly quicker, younger, more dynamic, at least as good defender and miles better dribbler. As long our middfield can get the ball forward (which Kante and Baka could), then we would be just fine if we have two brilliant wingers.

People also forget that football is not fifa. In real life its not easy to change even the side you play nevermind whole formation. Bakayoko always plays on left side to Fabinho, in two man midfield with two wingers and two fullbacks. The exact same position Matic plays here. Fact that he would even have French partner in Kante is probably great too.

 Yeah he makes simple passes most of the time, he prefers to dribble past opponents and then pass, rather make risky pass forward. Very raw passer. Sure he can pull great pass here and there, but so can Matic. If you look for Kroos, you will be dissapointed. If you look for Yaya or Vieira, then Bakayoko is the closest thing in years. His passing gets him down sometimes, because he gets the ball and then instead of passing forward, he just makes simple pass to nearest player, but his dribbling and ball control makes him great at pushing the ball forward without killing the tempo.

Its realy all about his role. If he gets free role to roam, his dribbling will be menance for any defense, if he gets the role like in city games when he has to stay deep, his passing will be the most basic.

I would be very happy with him. We need his type AND playmaker anyway, so by getting Baka, we cant lose realy.

From your description, he is like dembele for Spurs. That will be good, someone who can hold his ball under pressure, two footed, and most importantly can dribble past opponents through the middle of the pitch and carry the ball forward to help the attack. (Essien used to do this for us,) You only have to watch our match against Tottenham to know how important these type of midfielders are. 

[gadget 126]

12 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I think that is a trait which is prevalent in Italian managers; they value experience. Our Italians, Capello with England, and various Italian national team managers have exhibited it.

You may be correct on this, Ancelotti was the only manager since Ranieri to put any trust in youth though - both Italian

[Tomo 21,751]

2 minutes ago, gadget said:

You may be correct on this, Ancelotti was the only manager since Ranieri to put any trust in youth though - both Italian

Carlo ignored a young, hungry Sturridge and kept playing the stagnant Anelkalouda.

[gadget 126]

3 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Carlo ignored a young, hungry Sturridge and kept playing the stagnant Anelkalouda.

and also put faith and gave premier league starts to Bruma, Kakuta and McEcehran

[Tomo 21,751]

55 minutes ago, gadget said:

and also put faith and gave premier league starts to Bruma, Kakuta and McEcehran

One each, Hiddink gave more to Kenedy, RLC and Traore.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

His passing ability seems painfully average to me tbh. I'd much rather Tolisso or Strootman.

[ILoveLamp 270]

14 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

His passing ability seems painfully average to me tbh. I'd much rather Tolisso or Strootman.

I think he is superior to Tolisso in his position. Or at least on par with more potential. He has been called up to the France national team ahead of Tolisso anyway. I haven't seen enough of Strootman since he came back to judge.

[BoyBlue96 990]

14 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

His passing ability seems painfully average to me tbh. I'd much rather Tolisso or Strootman.

I'd love to see my old PSV-hero in a Chelsea kit but I doubt he's good enough to bring us to a higher level. 

 

Just like last year: ManUtd buy Pogba > Juve get 100m > Juve use the money to buy Higuain > Napoli lose Higuain and ADL refuses to sell another XI player: Koulibaly.

Club needs to act fast.

Because the blue Manchester club might ruin it this year. 

[Mufassir08 2,400]

1 hour ago, ILoveLamp said:

I think he is superior to Tolisso in his position. Or at least on par with more potential. He has been called up to the France national team ahead of Tolisso anyway. I haven't seen enough of Strootman since he came back to judge.

Tolisso to me seemed far more composed and incisive on the ball as compared to Bakayoko. I think the only thing Baka has over Tolisso is dribbling ability.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

2 hours ago, ILoveLamp said:

I think he is superior to Tolisso in his position. Or at least on par with more potential. He has been called up to the France national team ahead of Tolisso anyway. I haven't seen enough of Strootman since he came back to judge.

Werent both called up for first time last week? Bakayoko only after Pogba was injured?

[DYC. 7,542]

1 hour ago, Mufassir08 said:

Tolisso to me seemed far more composed and incisive on the ball as compared to Bakayoko. I think the only thing Baka has over Tolisso is dribbling ability.

They're different players so it all depends on what Conte is looking for. Tolisso is the superior player technically and offensively, and he's box-to-box. Baka is the superior player physically and defensively, and he's a midfield shield.

Personally, I don't like the idea of two technically average players in the centre of the pitch who don't offer much invention and imagination with the ball at their feet. We've seen how laberous Chelsea can be and there's no guaranteeing the team will keep finding ways to win next season. Grinding is never a long term plan for succes (don't mention the likes Juve and old Chelsea as those teams possessed great quality. Atletico grind and they've been 'unlucky' these past few years).

But at least Baka offers great athleticism and can surprise with the occasional surge from deep. And with the right purchase(s) at wingback and/or up front, you could make up for that lack of skill in the centre. And what do I know, really. Conte could make it work of course if he does indeed want him.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

17 minutes ago, DYC. said:

They're different players so it all depends on what Conte is looking for. Tolisso is the superior player technically and offensively, and he's box-to-box. Baka is the superior player physically and defensively, and he's a midfield shield.

Personally, I don't like the idea of two technically average players in the centre of the pitch who don't offer much invention and imagination with the ball at their feet. We've seen how laberous Chelsea can be and there's no guaranteeing the team will keep finding ways to win next season. Grinding is never a long term plan for succes (don't mention the likes Juve and old Chelsea as those teams possessed great quality. Atletico grind and they've been 'unlucky' these past few years).

But at least Baka offers great athleticism and can surprise with the occasional surge from deep. And with the right purchase(s) at wingback and/or up front, you could make up for that lack of skill in the centre. And what do I know, really. Conte could make it work of course if he does indeed want him.

They have different skillsets but they play the same roles, do they not? They both are essentially box to box mids, one is better in the defensive phase of the game and can make surging runs from deep once the game opens up and there is space to run into while Tolisso may not possess the same explosive running ability with the ball but has far more quality on the ball not to mention is much more of goal threat. Tolisso's shooting is also an asset.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

45 minutes ago, Mufassir08 said:

They have different skillsets but they play the same roles, do they not? They both are essentially box to box mids, one is better in the defensive phase of the game and can make surging runs from deep once the game opens up and there is space to run into while Tolisso may not possess the same explosive running ability with the ball but has far more quality on the ball not to mention is much more of goal threat. Tolisso's shooting is also an asset.

On paper any skilled player would look better next to Kante, but in the end it all comes down to how Conte wants his team to play. IMO for our style and PL, we need Bakayoko more. 

The football might be a bit "uglier" but more efficient

Tolisso is brilliant talent, but for me he is not good enough defender and not consistent creator. He is somewhere between and it works in Lyon, but in any big team, he will only work in 3 man midfield next to a DM, playmaker and him as b2b. It would work well in juve along Khedira and Marchisio/Pjanic, but here, I dont see him being someone to dictate our attacks on regular basis, nor someone who can sit back and defend. He needs more freedom to get most of him and only three man mid allows that. 

In the end we dont know how either of these players would do here until they do, so to me as long we get a real quality midfielder, I will be happy whoever it is that Conte values enough to be our starting material.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

2 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

On paper any skilled player would look better next to Kante, but in the end it all comes down to how Conte wants his team to play. IMO for our style and PL, we need Bakayoko more. 

The football might be a bit "uglier" but more efficient

Tolisso is brilliant talent, but for me he is not good enough defender and not consistent creator. He is somewhere between and it works in Lyon, but in any big team, he will only work in 3 man midfield next to a DM, playmaker and him as b2b. It would work well in juve along Khedira and Marchisio/Pjanic, but here, I dont see him being someone to dictate our attacks on regular basis, nor someone who can sit back and defend. He needs more freedom to get most of him and only three man mid allows that. 

In the end we dont know how either of these players would do here until they do, so to me as long we get a real quality midfielder, I will be happy whoever it is that Conte values enough to be our starting material.

I think you are underrating Tolisso's defensive contribution a bit but I do agree that Baka seems better of the two when it comes to the defensive side of the game but make no mistake, Tolisso is no Pirlo defensively. Also I agree that Tolisso is no playmaker but his distribution and range of passing is crispier, cleaner and more efficient than Baka. Maybe I need to watch more of Baka but whenever I have watched him, I haven't thought that 'Yeah, this guy is what we need in midfield'. 

[ILoveLamp 270]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Werent both called up for first time last week? Bakayoko only after Pogba was injured?

Yep sorry, missed the fact that Tolisso was in the squad initially! He is a great player too but personally I think Bakayoko has more potential. Tolisso has been (apparently) nailed on to go to Juve for a few seasons now and looks like it could happen in the summer.