Breaching Roberto Martinez's philosophy

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Yeah, I've had people tell me that Osman's not been that good, but I'd slightly disagree, he's been decent for them so far, and Barry will find it tough to replace him in the first 2-3 games cause he still needs to find his feet. Think Eto'o will start, gut feeling.

I think Eto'o will start too. Jose knows him very well and Torres isn't exactly the type of striker you'd want to play against Distin and Jagielka.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I think Eto'o will start too. Jose knows him very well and Torres isn't exactly the type of striker you'd want to play against Distin and Jagielka.

Oh the horror.

[SeB 1,281]

Yeah, I've had people tell me that Osman's not been that good, but I'd slightly disagree, he's been decent for them so far, and Barry will find it tough to replace him in the first 2-3 games cause he still needs to find his feet. Think Eto'o will start, gut feeling.

I like Osman as he's a bit different from the other english midfielders, has invention, vision and can pick a pass out of nowhere. But he's an attacking midfielder with a fair amount of waste in what he wants to do, partly because some of his team mates don't get what he wants to do or that the choice is actually bad.

He's not a central midfielder by nature, it's been evident because as much him and Fellaini had issues to cover each others to press efficiently, block passing lanes.

On your chart, Pienaar does drop as you showed with your arrow but on the other side, I agree that both attackers are henceforth positioned on the inside but Mirallas does the diagonal running into space. Has usually little impact to set up chances. He's been average so far. I don't like him as I never rated him in France, it's a player who had obvious limitations, managed to gain enormous confidence in Greece but still the inconsistent, disappointing winger/striker.

I wouldn't say the way Wigan presses is unique. It's virtually unique in England to press with three attackers whereas it's common stuff to see in Spain, Italy. Usually in england wide players block the sides of the field whereas the main striker and his closest central support do close down the center backs.

Martinez asked an attacking pressing to his three attackers (actually that was the wide two plus Maloney keeping an eye on the opp's deepest midfielder). Then if the first wave of pressure was passed through, it was the role of both JMc to press in the middle third in order to allow the wing backs to recover their positions. (at the same time, Koné and McManaman tracked the opp's full backs if needed)

What's been an issue for Everton and It's been a common feature since pre-season (I watched every of their games so far, bar the Cardiff one) is that nor Osman nor Fellaini could press efficiently without leaving gaps or commiting fouls. The Real game was interesting on that aspect as they faced a team from the elite. Osman did something like 5 fouls in a single half, whereas both him & Fellaini were out of position: latter with an entry into the box with a cross to come while the former provided support close to the touchline.

That's why McCarthy is their most important signing so far. Gibson was able to pass sideways as Martinez asks from his midfielders (feed the wing backs, use the opponent) but he couldn't press (mobility etc) as he's much more of the anchor man. Even if McCarthy did hold the deepest role of the two at Wigan (McArthur did the box to box and pressing stuff), he can press efficiently without commiting much fouls. I'd say it's one of his key attributes, he's very solid to defend standing and force opponents to pass backwards.

That Real game highlighted some of the issues Everton would encounter against top sides, who could counter them efficiently (though WBA didn't manage to be that of a thread recently). Despite Jags and Distin's mobility, there's a massive gap in between them as as Everton plays with 2 in midfield, one can't stay in between the CB, both midfielders are expected to stay close to each others (while the Maloney, Barkley drops off in the weak side)

Jelavic's form must be down to confidence, actually he's not such a impressive player in open play because his holdup play is awful, so is his finishing when he's forced to do more touches than a one touch finish (what he usually manages pretty well otherwise). His runs offers very little, he can't keep the ball.

I had a lot of expectations on Koné and Mirallas but the former hasn't recovered the form of last season when he was an impressive focal point on ground (over 83% pass acc on the season) while the other didn't get service or got in good position to do diagonal strikers runs.

Lukaku will help a lot for that. I expect Martinez to do similar job than with another raw talent that was Victor MOses tactically, to work on positioning, runs etc.. (maybe he'll do the same as he did at Wigan once, painting footballs and alanyse passing lanes on the grass with his players, wish I could do that in my sessions lol)

Lukaku runs into depth intinctively, has to work on the path of his runs to be a bit less predictable. But anyway hell keep the CBs busy and will release space for Pienaar and Barkley in the hole.

That's why I decided to keep watching Martinez's implementation. I like very much the overral idea of the system and I want to have a clearer idea of how Martinez will try to make his team create clear chances (his wigan, efc teams always create numerous chances but few actual goalscoring ones) now he's better players and is expected to get results (played without a striker most of the time at Wigan, really bold move. Anyway he could have fielded Ronnie Stam upfront, Whelan would still praise him haha)

I must have forgotten some other points to discuss but I really have to go so I'll try to add some stuff tonight

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I like Osman as he's a bit different from the other english midfielders, has invention, vision and can pick a pass out of nowhere. But he's an attacking midfielder with a fair amount of waste in what he wants to do, partly because some of his team mates don't get what he wants to do or that the choice is actually bad.

He's not a central midfielder by nature, it's been evident because as much him and Fellaini had issues to cover each others to press efficiently, block passing lanes.

On your chart, Pienaar does drop as you showed with your arrow but on the other side, I agree that both attackers are henceforth positioned on the inside but Mirallas does the diagonal running into space. Has usually little impact to set up chances. He's been average so far. I don't like him as I never rated him in France, it's a player who had obvious limitations, managed to gain enormous confidence in Greece but still the inconsistent, disappointing winger/striker.

I wouldn't say the way Wigan presses is unique. It's virtually unique in England to press with three attackers whereas it's common stuff to see in Spain, Italy. Usually in england wide players block the sides of the field whereas the main striker and his closest central support do close down the center backs.

Martinez asked an attacking pressing to his three attackers (actually that was the wide two plus Maloney keeping an eye on the opp's deepest midfielder). Then if the first wave of pressure was passed through, it was the role of both JMc to press in the middle third in order to allow the wing backs to recover their positions. (at the same time, Koné and McManaman tracked the opp's full backs if needed)

What's been an issue for Everton and It's been a common feature since pre-season (I watched every of their games so far, bar the Cardiff one) is that nor Osman nor Fellaini could press efficiently without leaving gaps or commiting fouls. The Real game was interesting on that aspect as they faced a team from the elite. Osman did something like 5 fouls in a single half, whereas both him & Fellaini were out of position: latter with an entry into the box with a cross to come while the former provided support close to the touchline.

That's why McCarthy is their most important signing so far. Gibson was able to pass sideways as Martinez asks from his midfielders (feed the wing backs, use the opponent) but he couldn't press (mobility etc) as he's much more of the anchor man. Even if McCarthy did hold the deepest role of the two at Wigan (McArthur did the box to box and pressing stuff), he can press efficiently without commiting much fouls. I'd say it's one of his key attributes, he's very solid to defend standing and force opponents to pass backwards.

That Real game highlighted some of the issues Everton would encounter against top sides, who could counter them efficiently (though WBA didn't manage to be that of a thread recently). Despite Jags and Distin's mobility, there's a massive gap in between them as as Everton plays with 2 in midfield, one can't stay in between the CB, both midfielders are expected to stay close to each others (while the Maloney, Barkley drops off in the weak side)

Jelavic's form must be down to confidence, actually he's not such a impressive player in open play because his holdup play is awful, so is his finishing when he's forced to do more touches than a one touch finish (what he usually manages pretty well otherwise). His runs offers very little, he can't keep the ball.

I had a lot of expectations on Koné and Mirallas but the former hasn't recovered the form of last season when he was an impressive focal point on ground (over 83% pass acc on the season) while the other didn't get service or got in good position to do diagonal strikers runs.

Lukaku will help a lot for that. I expect Martinez to do similar job than with another raw talent that was Victor MOses tactically, to work on positioning, runs etc.. (maybe he'll do the same as he did at Wigan once, painting footballs and alanyse passing lanes on the grass with his players, wish I could do that in my sessions lol)

Lukaku runs into depth intinctively, has to work on the path of his runs to be a bit less predictable. But anyway hell keep the CBs busy and will release space for Pienaar and Barkley in the hole.

That's why I decided to keep watching Martinez's implementation. I like very much the overral idea of the system and I want to have a clearer idea of how Martinez will try to make his team create clear chances (his wigan, efc teams always create numerous chances but few actual goalscoring ones) now he's better players and is expected to get results (played without a striker most of the time at Wigan, really bold move. Anyway he could have fielded Ronnie Stam upfront, Whelan would still praise him haha)

I must have forgotten some other points to discuss but I really have to go so I'll try to add some stuff tonight

Agree with the first part, Fellaini was quite poor in his pressing, which was evident from Norwich's first goal.

However when I said unique I meant with their phases in pressing. I had noted it down several times that the middle three would wait till the front three had done their pressing, and then initiate their own high pressing. Something that was done in Wigan, yes, and a little unique with Martinez in specific.

I had written this before the signings though, and agree with McCarthy being a fantastic capture, especially when he can easily fit into the system.

I'll disagree with Jelavic though, I kinda found him a little different from other strikers, and last season I was impressed with his hold up play.

Agree with the Lukaku loan though, relieved he went to Goodison Park instead of WBA, much more better for his development.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Nice read.

Looking forward to the A.Cole- Coleman encounter.

[SeB 1,281]

However when I said unique I meant with their phases in pressing. I had noted it down several times that the middle three would wait till the front three had done their pressing, and then initiate their own high pressing. Something that was done in Wigan, yes, and a little unique with Martinez in specific.

I'll disagree with Jelavic though, I kinda found him a little different from other strikers, and last season I was impressed with his hold up play.

One of the things that makes me following how Martinez sets up his teams is the ambition he shows when he asks his players to press, he asks his players to position themselves on passing lanes: usually you'd expect your central midfielders to get in between the goal and their opponent to keep him in sight, track his movements etc. Martinez usually asks his midfielders to get in between the oppositon's player who distribute and the one who'll receive the ball.

In the FA Cup final, McCarthy and Gomez usually got in between Barry and Tevez, that was a really bold move as you'd expect both of them to either stay in position or carefully tracking Tevez. Here's where the positional sense to vizualise passing lanes is crucial, what Osman and Fellaini obviously lacked

What I like about 34-ish formations is the fact that despite there is only two midfielders (so then with different pressing attitude to have: can't close down opponents too high up, work on strict zonal marking not to leave gaps) there's the spare man who can come up to cover both midfielders on the side the sequence develops.

So then if an opponent's midfielder is on the ball on his centre left side of the pitch, he can be pressed by two close midfielders with the right spare man in close cover in behind (what Luiz does btw). Thing is, that contrary to 433 formation (with an anchor) or 4231 (and Luiz's role to track runners in between the lines) there's not too much room to be threatened by quick swictches of play as you know there'll be two center backs (CB and LCB) plus the wing back on the other side.

So obviously when your whole team presses efficiently due to good pressing players (close spaces quickly enough, don't commit too much fouls) and that there's cover everywhere behind on the pitch with quick and reactive players, that's a really interesting system relying on creating overloads where the ball is played

I really liked Jelavic's desire, his celebrations when he scored 7 in 12... But honest, he's been dreadful the last season, really couldn't put one feet on the ball, let alone laying it back properly. Was in the shadow of Fellaini and was restricted to altruist running into space to create space for Fellaini, Pienaar yeah... but still was far from being efficient as a forward to do forward stuff

And yeah, Everton is a step upper than WBA for Lukaku, with all respect that I've for WBA and the way they're relevant tactically for what they do (play deep, ZM centrally to allow crosses in then pick second balls and counter attack from it). Lukaku will play in a team playing possession football, much higher up on the pitch. He won't have acres of spaces in counter attack anymore, won't be used as a super sub as well (where he was the most efficient I though, though he was predictable and wasteful when starting games).

He'll be expected to provide genuine rupture in Everton's sterile passing interplay in the final third, so then will have to be sharp and unpredictable enough to get service and be useful, use space properly and not with the freedom (meaning: doesn't needs to do the perfect run to get the ball in a tight interval) a counter-attack team allowed

[hjperdeath 2,226]

One of the things that makes me following how Martinez sets up his teams is the ambition he shows when he asks his players to press, he asks his players to position themselves on passing lanes: usually you'd expect your central midfielders to get in between the goal and their opponent to keep him in sight, track his movements etc. Martinez usually asks his midfielders to get in between the oppositon's player who distribute and the one who'll receive the ball.

In the FA Cup final, McCarthy and Gomez usually got in between Barry and Tevez, that was a really bold move as you'd expect both of them to either stay in position or carefully tracking Tevez. Here's where the positional sense to vizualise passing lanes is crucial, what Osman and Fellaini obviously lacked

What I like about 34-ish formations is the fact that despite there is only two midfielders (so then with different pressing attitude to have: can't close down opponents too high up, work on strict zonal marking not to leave gaps) there's the spare man who can come up to cover both midfielders on the side the sequence develops.

So then if an opponent's midfielder is on the ball on his centre left side of the pitch, he can be pressed by two close midfielders with the right spare man in close cover in behind (what Luiz does btw). Thing is, that contrary to 433 formation (with an anchor) or 4231 (and Luiz's role to track runners in between the lines) there's not too much room to be threatened by quick swictches of play as you know there'll be two center backs (CB and LCB) plus the wing back on the other side.

So obviously when your whole team presses efficiently due to good pressing players (close spaces quickly enough, don't commit too much fouls) and that there's cover everywhere behind on the pitch with quick and reactive players, that's a really interesting system relying on creating overloads where the ball is played

I really liked Jelavic's desire, his celebrations when he scored 7 in 12... But honest, he's been dreadful the last season, really couldn't put one feet on the ball, let alone laying it back properly. Was in the shadow of Fellaini and was restricted to altruist running into space to create space for Fellaini, Pienaar yeah... but still was far from being efficient as a forward to do forward stuff

Very interesting take. could have taken down notes from you instead of watching the games. Definitely going to keep an eye on him from now on.

[SeB 1,281]

Very interesting take. could have taken down notes from you instead of watching the games. Definitely going to keep an eye on him from now on.

Added something re: Lukaku

Otherwise I wrote that on how Wigan won the FA Cup. Brilliant and bold tactical plan from Martinez against that joke of a manager Mancini is

http://mypremierleague.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comment-wigan-a-remporte-la-fa-cup/ (of course it's in french but for once there's more images then text. Couldve done shorter but I really wanted to show two or three sequences of each point listed)

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Added something re: Lukaku

Otherwise I wrote that on how Wigan won the FA Cup. Brilliant and bold tactical plan from Martinez against that joke of a manager Mancini is

http://mypremierleague.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/comment-wigan-a-remporte-la-fa-cup/ (of course it's in french but for once there's more images then text. Couldve done shorter but I really wanted to show two or three sequences of each point listed)

Definitely agree on that. Have argued with some of the lot about that too. definitely a step upper if looked from a tactical point of a view.

Looks bloody brilliant. Sadly I don't have the time now, to settle my mind and read it, almost midnight here. I'll read it up tomorrow, and get back to you !

[SeB 1,281]

Definitely agree on that. Have argued with some of the lot about that too. definitely a step upper if looked from a tactical point of a view.

Looks bloody brilliant. Sadly I don't have the time now, to settle my mind and read it, almost midnight here. I'll read it up tomorrow, and get back to you !

OK no probs

There's a chart on 14. to show what I tried to explain re: the spare man in support of the two midfielders who presses the ball (maybe that'll be a bit clearer haha)

I saw your stuff on the zig zag theory otherwise. If you've the game on your computer (what I obviously think you do) so then check the 13. sequence.

Martinez's game plan is about switching the play from left to right in order to use an option in the channel (having carried a defender out of position), then put a cross in with (expected...) entries into the box (opposed wing back, McArthur in shooting position 20 yds from goal). The pattern was clear but Wigan's time was marred with lack of presence into the box on crosses. Maybe the only point having kept Fellaini would have make sense, as it didn't at all otherwise for his gameplan

[hjperdeath 2,226]

OK no probs

There's a chart on 14. to show what I tried to explain re: the spare man in support of the two midfielders who presses the ball (maybe that'll be a bit clearer haha)

I saw your stuff on the zig zag theory otherwise. If you've the game on your computer (what I obviously think you do) so then check the 13. sequence.

Martinez's game plan is about switching the play from left to right in order to use an option in the channel (having carried a defender out of position), then put a cross in with (expected...) entries into the box (opposed wing back, McArthur in shooting position 20 yds from goal). The pattern was clear but Wigan's time was marred with lack of presence into the box on crosses. Maybe the only point having kept Fellaini would have make sense, as it didn't at all otherwise for his gameplan

I'll get my Villa hard disk out and have a look at that. Terribly under-rated Martinez. Feel a bit ashamed now tbh .

Always needed a brush up on my french, so this will be good practice haha.

[edetarod 2,155]

[Strike 7,489]

Lukaku for Jelavic though. Massive difference

[hjperdeath 2,226]

OK no probs

There's a chart on 14. to show what I tried to explain re: the spare man in support of the two midfielders who presses the ball (maybe that'll be a bit clearer haha)

I saw your stuff on the zig zag theory otherwise. If you've the game on your computer (what I obviously think you do) so then check the 13. sequence.

Martinez's game plan is about switching the play from left to right in order to use an option in the channel (having carried a defender out of position), then put a cross in with (expected...) entries into the box (opposed wing back, McArthur in shooting position 20 yds from goal). The pattern was clear but Wigan's time was marred with lack of presence into the box on crosses. Maybe the only point having kept Fellaini would have make sense, as it didn't at all otherwise for his gameplan

I've read it now. it's bloody brilliant. just as I thought, I actually learned a lot more. The way you explained Shaun Maloney's role was good. I did have a few doubts, but after reading it a couple of times, I got it. I'll be looking out for more from you now on !

Lukaku for Jelavic though. Massive difference

EPL as a whole, then definitely, but I believe there's a loan clause in which he can't play against his parent club !

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Lukaku for Jelavic though. Massive difference

Luckily not against us, though.

[Shogun 721]

Seriously Osman is dreadful guys, has been for the calendar year.

It'll be McCarthy and Barry/Gibson

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Seriously Osman is dreadful guys, has been for the calendar year.

It'll be McCarthy and Barry/Gibson

hmm debatable tbh. McCarthy will easily make the team, Barry on the other hand, I have my doubts.

[SeB 1,281]

hmm debatable tbh. McCarthy will easily make the team, Barry on the other hand, I have my doubts.

I'm eager to see how much playing time he'll have as Gibson and McCarthy are likely to start altogether. And Gibson's long play is another asset that Barry may not have (in terms of frequence, pace and purpose), as both him and Barry can similarily pass the ball sideways like Martinez expects from his DP

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I'm eager to see how much playing time he'll have as Gibson and McCarthy are likely to start altogether. And Gibson's long play is another asset that Barry may not have (in terms of frequence, pace and purpose), as both him and Barry can similarily pass the ball sideways like Martinez expects from his DP

Yeah does have the slight edge over Barry. Anyways he is really decent cover .

[SeB 1,281]

Yeah does have the slight edge over Barry. Anyways he is really decent cover .

Anyway both fit the role as they're tactically good enough to cover and fill gaps. Anyway Gibson's injury record (even if Martinez's staff will monitor it as he emphasises on physiotherapy etc... - has graduated) may settle things for everyone, he'll miss one game out of three or four and Barry will play 30% of the games