A different perspective

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

We could slowly build this and let it evolve to bypass the complex formula problem....

I think the Conceding part is is generally a furtile concept.

Further questions:

1: What would constitute Positive contributions.

2. How do we balance Pos/neg according to the three zones (like Choulo said ...)

Then we could maybe take it from there?

I think there are two different stats. Offensive contribution and defensive contribution. I didn't add negative defensive contribution (such as missed tackles, being dribbled past, own goals, etc...) For offensive contribution, the problem is weighing things. A goal and a key pass are both important but a goal is obviously much more important. How do you combine both of these things into one statistic?

[Rmpr 8,977]

Disagree, trying to apply a non-football mentality to football, it doesnt work.

[Stingray 9,441]

Disagree, trying to apply a non-football mentality to football, it doesnt work.

That you disagree ... That 'it' doesn't work is very premature to conclude. What is 'it'?

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[CHOULO19 24,332]

I think the way you can include everything in it is by adding 'weights' to everything. For example, losing possession or missed pass in defense should have, let's say 5 times, the weight of losing the ball in the final third. So may be you could have a point system for every thing, kind of like fantasy football points but much more 'technical' and advanced. Like a goal could be worth 15 positive points while a red card 20 negative points. The trick would of course be to find the fitting weight for every action.

You'll probably need a program to implement this, though.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Disagree, trying to apply a non-football mentality to football, it doesnt work.

It does work to at least some degree and I guarantee you every single club uses statistical analysis as a big part of their scouting, their understanding their own players, and their tactics.

[The Mak 4,459]

Interesting ... the weight factor then should be much higher for defenders than for attackers

I'd say it'd be pretty balanced weight for midfielders, but can it be if it's attacking midfielders vs. defensive? It's all so complicated, but deliciously interesting and nerdy!

[Stingray 9,441]

Interesting ... the weight factor then should be much higher for defenders than for attackers

I'd say it'd be pretty balanced weight for midfielders, but can it be if it's attacking midfielders vs. defensive? It's all so complicated, but deliciously interesting and nerdy!

Deliciously nerdy !! Lmaoooooo

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[Rmpr 8,977]

That you disagree ... That 'it' doesn't work is very premature to conclude. What is 'it'? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

'It' is the use of statistcs as the primary attribute to choose a player in the construction of a football squad...

It does work to at least some degree and I guarantee you every single club uses statistical analysis as a big part of their scouting, their understanding their own players, and their tactics.

It works as a minor category not as a big part of scouting (no way), because football it not baseball. What you are trying to propose is something like Moneyball, where you simply 100% relly on statistics and progressions, something that would totally fail!

There is absolutely no need to put statistics as a primary focus.

1) Football isnt a turn-by-turn based sport, which makes numbers much less important than the actual gameplay.

2) Statistcs are often misleading in football, many dont represent what you want them to (and that is because you attack and defend at the same time).

3) Unlike baseball and american football, where you actually do look for a player that will give you x-hits or x-tackles (and thus you use statistic), you cant do that to football. A player must do a lot of different things all at once; making the overall analysis and observation of training sessions much more important than numbers.

4) Football is the least mathematic of all sports, you dont need to use one single number to get to the conclusion if one will or will not fit into your squad nor you need it to decide if a player is good or not. I would trust my eye hundreds of times more than a bunch of numbers (and this is comming from an engineer).

5) Scouts rarely choose one player over the other due to the statistics you posted...

[Stingray 9,441]

'It' is the use of statistcs as the primary attribute to choose a player in the construction of a football squad...

That is your personal interpretation of OP's intentions, me friend. IT could be the use of data and statistics to analyse performance and impact.

Whole different ballgame, Rmpr. Of course it is foolish to use statistics as the primary reason to make your team. But i think that is a strawman argument, 'cause nobody actually claims that here, I think.

[Peppen 934]

I actually read a fairly new article on Chelsea FC and their scouting network's emphasis on data and statistics in both player purchases and starting formation...

Although in Danish, it's very interesting... It goes to show that several different data patterns are a vital part in selecting first team players, training etc.

http://www.computerworld.dk/art/226041/chelsea-fc-saadan-bestemmer-it-programmer-startopstilling-og-spillerindkoeb?page=3

[Rmpr 8,977]

That is your personal interpretation of OP's intentions, me friend. IT could be the use of data and statistics to analyse performance and impact.

Whole different ballgame, Rmpr. Of course it is foolish to use statistics as the primary reason to make your team. But i think that is a strawman argument, 'cause nobody actually claims that here, I think.

Have you read Moneyball? It advises you to build a whole baseball team using statistics as the primary criteria, ignoring all other analysis!

Does it work? Yeees, in baseball, a sport that has statistics written all over it...

However, football doesnt work like that. Football is more an art than a science. Just like you cant analyse a painter with numbers, you cant do the same with players. Nevetheless, just by using your vision, studies and experience, you can say whether a painter is good or not (or a player for that matter).

For instance, Argentine and Brazilian scouts dont use any other tool than their observation, different than England and France (who relly heavily on statistics and studies). Who has been more successful?

Scouts should relly on their guts, experience and knowledge first and statistics second...

[Stingray 9,441]

That is your personal interpretation of OP's intentions, me friend. IT could be the use of data and statistics to analyse performance and impact.

Whole different ballgame, Rmpr. Of course it is foolish to use statistics as the primary reason to make your team. But i think that is a strawman argument, 'cause nobody actually claims that here, I think.

Have you read Moneyball? It advises you to build a whole baseball team using statistics as the primary criteria, ignoring all other analysis!

Does it work? Yeees, in baseball, a sport that has statistics written all over it...

However, football doesnt work like that. Football is more an art than a science. Just like you cant analyse a painter with numbers, you cant do the same with players. Nevetheless, just by using your vision, studies and experience, you can say whether a painter is good or not (or a player for that matter).

For instance, Argentine and Brazilian scouts dont use any other tool than their observation, different than England and France (who relly heavily on statistics and studies). Who has been more successful?

Scouts should relly on their guts, experience and knowledge first and statistics second...

But nobody is doing moneyball here, mate. I just like the analyses. Thats all, don't stress. Stats are an aid, a means to an end. Not the end in itself.

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[LDN Blue 7,903]

Are you Charlie Epps from Numb3rs?

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Have you read Moneyball? It advises you to build a whole baseball team using statistics as the primary criteria, ignoring all other analysis!

Does it work? Yeees, in baseball, a sport that has statistics written all over it...

However, football doesnt work like that. Football is more an art than a science. Just like you cant analyse a painter with numbers, you cant do the same with players. Nevetheless, just by using your vision, studies and experience, you can say whether a painter is good or not (or a player for that matter).

For instance, Argentine and Brazilian scouts dont use any other tool than their observation, different than England and France (who relly heavily on statistics and studies). Who has been more successful?

Scouts should relly on their guts, experience and knowledge first and statistics second...

I said from the outset that it's not like baseball. That football is a team sport and that statistical analysis is just part of it. However, I dealt with this thing in baseball too-people who think that the game is all about passion, tradition, etc with no place for statistical analysis...The present and the future involves statistical analysis. The A's who brought sabermetrics into the fold were not the best team in baseball. Not even close but their way of thinking changed everything. Statistical analysis is just here to stay. You think that teams that invest millions and millions in players aren't also all investing in it? Every single top team uses it.

[Rmpr 8,977]

I said from the outset that it's not like baseball. That football is a team sport and that statistical analysis is just part of it. However, I dealt with this thing in baseball too-people who think that the game is all about passion, tradition, etc with no place for statistical analysis...The present and the future involves statistical analysis. The A's who brought sabermetrics into the fold were not the best team in baseball. Not even close but their way of thinking changed everything. Statistical analysis is just here to stay. You think that teams that invest millions and millions in players aren't also all investing in it? Every single top team uses it.

First, it has nothing to do with passion and tradition...

Second, using statistics is very different than putting it as the primarily factor...

Third, this is not baseball...

[The Skipper 20,593]

Second, using statistics is very different than putting it as the primarily factor...

Thing is, no one here is saying that it is the primary factor. It's just a stat, that if constructed correctly, could help people see how effective a player is to his team. That's all.

[Rmpr 8,977]

But nobody is doing moneyball here, mate. I just like the analyses. Thats all, don't stress. Stats are an aid, a means to an end. Not the end in itself. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I am not stressing, just because I completely disagree, now it means I am losing control!

Stats are na aid, said it perfectly, not the number one aspect or factor to be taken into consideration. Teams will continue to use observation, knowledge and experience as their number one asset to choose which player they will buy/sell...

Also, I am only arguing about the transfer utility of statistics (before anyone start quoting me for the wrong reasons). I am of the firmly belief that numbers are the wrong way to analyse a possible transfer. A scout should use his guts, knowledge and observation (like it always has). However, I am 100% for using datas, numbers and progressions to improve players!!!!

[Rmpr 8,977]

Thing is, no one here is saying that it is the primary factor. It's just a stat, that if constructed correctly, could help people see how effective a player is to his team. That's all.

I know it, but giving statistics more importance than they actually have is a good recipe for disaster.