Oscar

[Tomo 21,733]

6 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

Mata is a flop in your eyes, and yet Maria was good enough? Thats interesting.

Mata has 24 goals and 18 assists in 2.5 years compared to Maria's 4 goals and 12 assists in 1 season. If you extrapolate Maria's 1 season to 2.5 he would have 10 goals and 30 assists. Which are still less than Mata. Mata was a 37million pound buy, Maria was 60 odd if I am not wrong. Please use the same method to judge both players for future references.

Would you take Bertrand over Baba right now? Or over Iva, thus shifting azpi to the right? Bertrand has been quite decent this season too. He has played 27 matches, and helped his team keep 11 clean sheets in them and half of them without their main GK. So while it would make sense to you for selling a club trained, Home grown, good young player for a 29 year old player who was then benched for the season and then sold, and then later have no options for the left back position except for a right back or a 20 year old Baba who was not played inspite IVA being the worst player in PL. Well, you can see why I would have a problem with this.

Before Costa or Lukaku, there was a case of Torres or Lukaku, Ba or Lukaku, even schurrle or Lukaku since schurrle was started ahead of lukaku at OT. And then was the master piece of actually bringing in a 33 year old semi retired striker rather than trust his "young eggs". Sorry, mate. But Lukaku's departure is ONLY on jose. No one else.

So because 2 coaches make the same mistake it makes it right? There are hundreds of fans here and thousands over at SB who think Oscar has stunk the place up. "Whoscored". So now we have to believe everything "Whoscored" says. Well i went to the "Whoscored" page and they had predicted a draw. Guess they get everything wrong on that site. Well, maybe I and others who have been watching football for 30 odd years know ABSOLUTELY nothing. Or maybe just maybe, the managers are gutless who would rather keep playing the "popular" player than give a chance to someone deserving.Jose bet on Oscar. He let 2 technically superior footballers leave for the sake of Oscar. Maybe he did not want to lose face. As for Guss, lesser said the better. Also, there is the question of going into the season with only 4 options in Hazard, Oscar, willian and Pedro. The other 2 were Kenedy and Traore who still, even at this moment cant get starts when we literally have nothing in the world to play for.

Sue the club? Oh dear!!! First of all you need to sort out whom do you support? Chelsea or Jose Mourinho. Jose' failure this season does not just mean a poor PL and trophyless season but it actually means MILLIONS and MILLIONS of losses. If I cost my company one-hundreth of the money that Jose has cost the club, the company wont just fire me but we have given him the respect of a quadruple winning manager. Even at our worst moment, the club and the fans were nothing but completely and totally in support of him. But lets speak the truth now since Jose is gone. He has screwed us not just for the present but for the foreseeable future. We have a defence of a 36 year old, 2 31 year olds. We have sold a no.10 who has the potential to be one of the best players on the planet rather we have a player who somehow achieves to get the highest rating on some arbitary website. We have sold a 22 year old striker, who almost anyone at all associated to football could have said to have the potential to be a brilliant striker. As for "I told you so", I have no way to prove that I never rated Oscar highly or that I never thought the competition between Oscar and Kdb to be even close.

Lastly, lets discuss what a "leader" is. A good leader/good manager is someone who leads his team loyally. Who does not have a one set off rules for a certain set of players while having another set of rules for his "favourties". A good leader does not keep playing his favourites even though we are 17th in the table while giving asenine excuses like "I need 5 tall players". A leader does not go about abusing the team's doctor for doing her Job and losing some respect from the fans as well as players. NO. Jose was a poor leader this season and infact his whole tenure this time. His lies and negativity only hampered us this time.

This was the attacking lineup Jose inherited.

Mata (25) Schurrle (he was coming Jose or not), KDB, Hazard, Oscar, Moses (all 22) and the strikers Lukaku (20), Torres (29) and Ba (27). That's an average age off 23, you can't go into a season with the competition in the front few position's with an average age that low, I bet even Wenger in his youth obsessed prime had higher average age than that.

Also judging that you have dropped Mata and De Bruyne out of the silly sales, what would you're first choice front four have been that season? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Lukaku up top, with Mata, De Bruyne and Hazard in behind? That would have been horrible for balance and im talking player profile aswell as experience, none of those three AMs can defend even remotely, Lukaku was back then anonymous vs tight marking, on a given day it would click and yes fair enough it would have looked very good, but any half decent manager vs that front four would have congested the middle of the park and exposed an isolated pivot and defense on the counter, what we've been doing to Arsenal for years team's would be doing to us, that's before I mention the fact that Lampard and Rami were hardly going to have been giving sharp service from CM.

Someone might hit me back and say well if we stuck them all together and it would have clicked eventually, no because

1. How many times did we hear that with Arsenal in the mid 00s?

2. Youth need to play with experience, Hazard has touched up on how much Eto'o aided his development.

3. That band even at their prime wouldn't work, no width or off the ball nouce, as much as Schurrle and Willian weren't great that season, they offered width that help stretch play at times we were struggling.

So no signing Eto'o and Willian wasn't shirt sighted, any manager worth his salt would see a crucial position filled with such inexperience and look to hike the average age up, if we had a bunch of AM in or around their prime I would have preferred Lukaku to stay over signing Eto'o, in that sense it's a shame Lukaku wasn't a few years older, the 09/10 team would have been a perfect platform  for Lukaku to break through, out team was full of experienced players in or around their prime.

[Tomo 21,733]

16 hours ago, Stats said:

Mata has been very inconsistent for United but he still produces the odd moment of magic. Just look at his goals last season against Liverpool for instance and while I agree that he has not turned out to be a star player for United, he is regularly deployed out wide for United which is not his position. Oscar reguarly plays in his favoured position and is consistently below-par. Mata played in the no.10 role for us and did 10 times more for us than Oscar ever has. Of course when you are not playing a player in their favoured position consistently, it is likely that you are not going to see regular consistent performances.

I think you are reading into that a little too much Tomo. You can look into that as if they are giving respect to one of the best strikers on the planet in Lewa by claiming he can only go there if Lewa leaves. They are probably speaking from Bayern's perspective too. Bayern are not going to fork out over £50/60m for a striker unless Lewa leaves. Bayern do not work like that. They are frugal in their approach and Lukaku knows that Bayern will not be after him if Lewa stays which is prob why his father said that. Rumours have linked Lewa with Real so if that happens then Lukaku to Bayern is possible but right now it is not which is what is father was saying.

Courtois father IIRC also said similar things when Courtois was on loan at Atletico. Was he not saying that Courtois can only return if he is no.1 etc. Both fathers were just looking out for the best interest of their son's. On the pitch as long as a player's attitude is fine is what bothers me tbh. Ibra is arrogant as fuck but he is a world class player so that is why I would take him. Lukaku, no matter what is said about his attitude, scores on the pitch and loves football.

Regarding Traore, him wanting to stay and bide his time to battle for a place can also mean that he falls into oblivion and deteriorates due to a lack of playing time. Can you really say Traore has progressed this season by barely starting. Yeah, he has scored in his limited minutes but he has not got the game time he woudl have expected from the beginning of the season. He turns 21 in September as well.

Mata does produce moments but then so does Oscar, in general Mata has been poor not only for United but his last year here, maybe it's early burnout but he looks a pale shadow of what he was in his first 18 months here (especially the first 5 in 12/13) and he gets away with a lot of criticism seeing he broke United's transfer record.

Also Babara alluded too it but there always seems to be a ready made excuse for Mata, out if position, manager not liking him, strikers not producing, he was on the left a lot under AVB an in 12/13 RDM often played him on the right (due to Oscar pressing at ten) and he was in the form of his career.

Go see what United fans post about him, most are every bit as sick of him as we are of Oscar, if not more.

I don't condone that from Courtois, however keeper position is a little excepted due to never rotating there, outfield however there is always enough rotation that will give players chances.

Of course Traore could but nothing's bulletproof, Lukaku could have messed up at Everton and had his top level career over, at Chelsea if you mess up as a young UN you're get the benefit of the doubt. Point is with Traore he has jumped from 5th choice to second with his little minutes (which makes a mockery of the myth we never gave Lukaku a chance) and has put his name out their to Conte as a trusted squad member, he could have seen Pato threw the door and thought fuck that but he didn't and his hard work has been rewarded.

[Essien19 1,415]

5 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

Lets start with the most obvious. Costa instead of Lukaku is a brilliant deal. BUT. Do we have enough cover to even say things like "instead". Our backup strikers are Remy, falcao (on loan), Pato (on loan) and Traore. Sorry, but its criminal to not have a PL proven 21 year old world class potential on your roster when you have the chance. Remember Gudjohnsen-DD, DD-anelka. A club of chelsea's stature needs a minimum of 2 great strikers. heights of mis-management by Jose.

 How many penalties has Lampard missed in his days. Beckham? Messi misses penalties almost every other weekend. If jose's analyses of lukaku was made because of his penalty miss, I am so happy he is gone. As for etoo, Etoo came in and Lukaku went. Not the other way round. Before the start of the season, Jose kept saying about "young eggs" and "we wont win the trophy" and yet thought it good enough to bring in Etoo and start torres ahead of Lukaku. Like I said before, Lukaku's departure was only because of Jose's mistake. You are blaming LVG for Maria's mis-man-management and yet Jose cost us Lukaku, Mata, Kdb, Bertrand because of his mega-mis-man-management.

As for Mata, LVG's mis-man-management can be applied to Mata too. Maria played like a "Galactico" for a month. He was downright atrocious for the rest of the season. He was sold for 44 million pounds, a loss of 15 million pounds in a year. That itself should be indicative of his season at united.

Players like bertrand are a MUST keep. United had a squad of wes browns, John o sheas. Perfect squad players. Bertrand could have been one too. Unfortunately, Jose man-management and rotation in this tenure was abysmal. We had a 33 year old cole, who was definitely on his way out, yet cole was somehow kept at the club while Bertrand was loaned out to Villa. Bertrand played a total of 244 minutes under Mourinho. I dont think his problem was being a starter but lack of trust and play time. 244 minutes in 5 months despite his only competition being a 33 year old cole, who was poor (to say the least) whenever he took field. How you can judge Ryan's offensive play when he barely got any oppurtunity is beyond me.

Any team in the world needs 7 or 8 defenders over the course of a season. We currently have 6 which includes a 36 year old JT and a 21 year old Baba who Jose did not trust to tie his own shoes. Who is to blame for it? Why was Luis sold? People say "Luis wanted to leave". Who cares? De gea wanted to leave too. But sometimes you have to do whats best for the clubs. Put a price tag on luis that would be unbelievable. If Jose's solution to enhance a PL winning squad is to buy a 50million rated player then sorry, he can be replaced with RAFA BENITEZ and it wont matter.

Christensen did not become a good footballer overnight, did he? Where was Jose and his 10 minute technique to judge a youngster? Why did not Christensen get his chances at chelsea? All massive cases of mis-management. 

Do you really believe Musonda is not ready? Christensen, Ake are not ready? Do you really think if RLC had played instead of Oscar since the start of the season, we would have been any wprse. I honestly think we would have been in a much better position. And finally we come to Oscar. I dont know who and what Gilvorak is, but its the second reference to him on this thread in the past one page. Jose played Oscar and Guss is playing Oscar, and we are 10th in the league. Guss is playing Oscar because he thinks he does not have any "options". Infact, Gutless Gus needed injuries to hazard, matic, JT, zouma, willian and a suspension to Costa to give chance to youth like traore and kenedy despite us not having to play for anything. If hazard was fit right now, he would still be "playing" or rather standing on the pitch doing jack shit. So yes, Jose made mistakes and Gus is simply repeating them. Thats not a co-incidence, just Stupidity.

Having two very good strikers around is something no one would refuse, imo.
But it's an expensive decision, do you really think that at that time the board would have agreed to that? Instead of Costa we would have had Lukaku would be my guess.
Anyway, how many clubs have two class hitmen these days? It has become nothing more than a luxury.
Real have Benzema, Barcelona Suarez, Dortmund Aubameyang, Yids Kane, Leicester Vardy and so on.
There is indeed a different model out there, two different strikers.
Atletico has Griezmann and Torres who complement each other, similar to Bayern Munich with Lewandowski and Muller.
How does it work with very similar ones?
PSG comes to mind, they have two big men with Ibrahimovic and Cavani, but firstly they don't give a fuck about FFP and secondly media is still reporting that Cavani ain't happy.
Time's changing, yes, Jose did it with Benzema and Higuain, but today it's not normal anymore.
Big players want to play, particularly the big games and that's a thing which can't be assured, imo.

I think Jose wanted Costa to play most of our games, so we're talking about backup roles, the guys who play at most 20% of the games.
Last season Remy was banging them in for fun, sometimes i read that he was underrated, at least a decent striker, imo.
Before all of that we had Ba who wasn't bad either.
Behind Ba/ Remy we had washed up strikers, Eto'o, Drogba, Falcao (he was the first big flop out of the three) and nowadays Pato.
Besides the three strikers, we have introduced Traoré, now we're talking about 4 respectively 5 strikers in the house.
As i said before Falcao was a flop, Jose stuck his neck out, maybe he had no choice because the dude was forced on him, anyway, it went south.
Maybe Jose wanted to prioritize on a new defender instead of a better striker, but that's just a guess. 
At that time i agreed that a proper defender or another midfielder would be the better choice, so i can't criticize him for that.

You stated that Jose costed us Lukaku, Mata, Kdb, Bertrand.
Was it really the case?

Of course you can miss a penalty, the thing is Lukaku's overall style of play wasn't good against Bayern Munich, it didn't look like he bothered, imo.
During the WM he played very poor, looked out depth and like an amateur, he was far from perfect, despite some goals in the league.
Jose didn't want to gift him the spot, not without competition, Lukaku wanted to play no matter what, imo.
For one season we could have used him, i agree with you, but i get where Jose were coming from.
Maybe Eto'o came in before Lukaku left, but the talking was done before, imo. The penalty didn't change much, just the icing on the cake for the fans, imo.
But make no mistake, Eto'o hattrick vs. United, Ba saved our asses and Torres gave us hope against Atleti. Not too bad!
Jose said that he wanted to bring in Costa in his first season but it was impossible, anyway, Costa's no worse than Lukaku so i can't fold Jose for this one.

Nowadays a lot of decisions are a lot easier because of hindsight. As i said before back in the day Oscar was fitting in nicely here and Mata couldn't get his spot back,
United came calling, offering big bucks and soft-soaped him. Kevin was a mistake, but he was just a boy with a big mouth and fear because of the possibility of missing out on the upcoming tournament. He matured a lot at Wolfsburg, the experience was very good for him and his development, sometimes that's exactly what a young guy needs.
There was a time when Ivanovic and Azpilicueta were actually really good players, difficult times for Bertrand to get on the field.
I think it was under Benitez....his overall attacking contribution wasn't good enough, he didn't make the next step, a change of scenes were a blessing in disguise for him.

You question Cole's role? Cole is a legend here and whether you like it or not, that cuts him a lot of slack, he accepted his new role and tried his best, not too bad.
Bertrand and Cole were at different stages in their careers, Bertrand wanted to make a name for himself, maybe earn a spot in the England team, therefore he needed to play as much as possible, so i can understand why he left. Maybe i'm plain wrong, who knows.

Di Maria is a winner, tested against the best teams in the world, best player in a winning UCL final, it doesn't get any better than this.
Fair play to you for admitting that at the beginning Di Maria looked class. Van Gaal didn't replace him with anyone near his quality.
We still have Willian who can run the show from the middle of the park. Our goners had achieved nothing so far, so different story, imo.
Seeing all these Dutch guys i think Van Gaal has lot to say who the club buys.
I think Van Gaal wanted Di Maria out, cutting their losses to make room for new guys, even if that meant to accept a loss.
PSG ain't stupid, they made the most of this golden opportunity. You shouldn't forget that United saved his huge wages!
So it's a bit different than with our nobodys.

Before Jose came back, our Premier-League campaigns were miserable, we didn't stand a chance to compete for the championship, just lucky to get a CL spot each year.
Jose changed that immediately, we were competitive from day one. Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, De Bruyne, Azpilicueta, perhaps Willian counts too were young
and more importantly inexperienced, they weren't winners in the league and didn't know how to get the job done.
We used the money from the sales/loans to bring in players like Willian, Matic, Fabregas, Costa, we got something right otherwise no champions.

The big question is who is in charge of the transfer dealings? I don't think Jose wanted to get Papy, Baba and so on, at least at the end something was different.
So is it possible that the board just sold Luis because they wanted to do what the player wanted? They did it for Cech, maybe that's how they do it?
Maybe the Cuadrado flop changed everything, or has it always been the case? Jose made recommendations but the board is doing things self-sufficient?
That's why he said it's difficult to be successful for years to come at Chelsea? Big speculation!

I'm honestly surprised how well Christensen and now Musonda are doing at their current clubs.
I said before that Jose should have used some of the young talents, hindsight has kicked in, not arguing with you, already a lost cause.
But i keep wondering why Guus is doing it in a similar way.
You call it stupidity, i don't know mate, they're earning a living with what they're doing, something must be there, mhh.
Cuadrado flopped here big time, Salah to a lesser extent, nowadays they're playing a lot better, can't be the weather or fish & chips.

Sorry for the length and the English!

[chelseafan26 293]

14 hours ago, Tomo said:

This was the attacking lineup Jose inherited.

Mata (25) Schurrle (he was coming Jose or not), KDB, Hazard, Oscar, Moses (all 22) and the strikers Lukaku (20), Torres (29) and Ba (27). That's an average age off 23, you can't go into a season with the competition in the front few position's with an average age that low, I bet even Wenger in his youth obsessed prime had higher average age than that.

Also judging that you have dropped Mata and De Bruyne out of the silly sales, what would you're first choice front four have been that season? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Lukaku up top, with Mata, De Bruyne and Hazard in behind? That would have been horrible for balance and im talking player profile aswell as experience, none of those three AMs can defend even remotely, Lukaku was back then anonymous vs tight marking, on a given day it would click and yes fair enough it would have looked very good, but any half decent manager vs that front four would have congested the middle of the park and exposed an isolated pivot and defense on the counter, what we've been doing to Arsenal for years team's would be doing to us, that's before I mention the fact that Lampard and Rami were hardly going to have been giving sharp service from CM.

Someone might hit me back and say well if we stuck them all together and it would have clicked eventually, no because

1. How many times did we hear that with Arsenal in the mid 00s?

2. Youth need to play with experience, Hazard has touched up on how much Eto'o aided his development.

3. That band even at their prime wouldn't work, no width or off the ball nouce, as much as Schurrle and Willian weren't great that season, they offered width that help stretch play at times we were struggling.

So no signing Eto'o and Willian wasn't shirt sighted, any manager worth his salt would see a crucial position filled with such inexperience and look to hike the average age up, if we had a bunch of AM in or around their prime I would have preferred Lukaku to stay over signing Eto'o, in that sense it's a shame Lukaku wasn't a few years older, the 09/10 team would have been a perfect platform  for Lukaku to break through, out team was full of experienced players in or around their prime.

So exactly what attribute did Torres/Ba provide us that Lukaku could not. All torres could do back then was fall on the floor and concede possession. Whenever given a start Ba was awful, he was best for that 10 minute cameo. Lukaku provided us with speed and finishing and since we played most of the season on the counter. We failed to score at villa away, palace away and norwich at home in last 5/6 games of our season and thus lost the title. Did not the managers do that or rather still do that while playing us? Congest the middle of the park and expose our pivot. Difference would have been that we would have had 2 brilliant play makers along with a good young striker (i use good to describe lukaku 2 years ago, brilliant for the current one). Sorry mate, by Jose's own admission, this was a squad that needed to "grow". That needed to eat/drink/ whatever hopeless drivel he used back then comparing us to horses/eggs. This would have been the way to go forward. 

If hazard's development was due to etoo, then we should have signed him as a coach, not a semi retired player. Etoo-Kind DD-falcao these were jose's 1st/2nd choice strikers through out his tenure. Abysmal. I would take a 20 year old Lukaku over a 30odd/40odd year old etoo any day of the week of any millenium. And this is where man-management comes to the fore. In a world year, how could you even expect players like Lukaku and Kdb to be sitting on the bench doing nothing, when even they know for a fact that they were the club's best choice for the no.10 or a striker.

I have to ask, how exactly did jose solve ANY of those above mentioned problems? Our pivot is a joke and we have cesc - one of the main culprit for how poor arsenal have been for a decade. We still have no width. And teams Still isolate our pivot over and over again. I may have watched a different season and a half to you if thats not the case. What we should have done is Stuck with Hazard-Kdb-schurrle with mata as our back up no.10. For me, that was always our best attacking trio. Lukaku was a no-brainer. I hope that one season of etoo and hazard's minuscule development and one PL is good enough to cover a decade full of 20 goals a season striker. But for me, we got ripped off in that deal. What we should have done is have the top 4 decided and then build on it. Arsenal main mistake is not that they have a light weight top 4, its the fact that they continue to play with arteta/flamini for years, they have wilshere who cant string 2 matches together. Even now, they have coq-elneny instead of going all out for a proper vidal-like CM. Thats there mistake, atleast in my opinion. I would have settled the attack or even built on it by getting costa and having gotten lukaku's trust by having him as my no.1 striker for a season. In a 60 match season, 2 good strikers are the minimum that are required. And then mainly built on the DM position with the likes of Matic, Ramires, Vidal/Radja. 

Ps - Youth and Young should not be equated. We would have had a "Young" top4, but these were players who have been playing for the first team for atleast 5 years, and who had played for multiple leagues and were regarded as the best talents in the world.

[Special Juan 27,439]

Act now and start whoring Oscar, Mikel, Ivanovic and Cahill out to the Chinese super clubs. Based on what they are paying for players there is about 120M sitting there.

[The Mak 4,459]

On 4/10/2016 at 4:25 AM, Tomo said:

Only just seen that, I could spin that around and say the main argument for Mata was his end product, something he is lacking at United and gets reguarly criticised for by United fans.

 

 

 

End product where exactly?! Because you're certainly not talking about as CAM. Yes, he has problems on the wing, but only a fool would play him there instead of CAM. 

That's funny, because the United fans I speak to say that Mata dances all over Rooney in terms of the CAM role but he is barely played there....
 

On 4/10/2016 at 4:25 AM, Tomo said:

In fact look at Willian for example, now he has caught up with Juan in terms of end product is there one single aspect of the game Mata is better than Willy?

 

 

If I'm comparing Willian's best season with Mata's, also meaning that both are played consistently and in their favoured positions (which has only happened 1 time for Mata), Mata is better at:

1. Goals.
2. Assists.
3. Set-piece delivery (remember when we actually scored from corners? Yeah, Mata was a big factor in that.)

 

On 4/10/2016 at 4:25 AM, Tomo said:

just because Jose was wrong about Oscar doesn't mean he was also wrong about Mata, I do find it funny that Hazard/Courtois/Costa/Cesc got completely slated in some cases wrote off for bad spells this season yet Mata who's been average since early 2013 is supposedly the one that got away,

 

 

 

 

Just imagine for a moment that Mata's momentum from 12/13 was not completely derailed by José arrival and the inexplicable Oscar love-in. Imagine the roles were reversed and Oscar was sold for quite a sum instead.

Now, picture Mata being covered by Matic behind him and Willian on the right. Not to mention having a manager that actually inspires confidence in him, something José or Van Gaal did/do not do. Not thinking that Mata would have the ability to flourish and at least match, or surpass, his achievements in 12/13 in such a system is pretty narrow-minded. Not only this, considering he had 6 goals and 5 assists in 15 appearances under Moyes, a manager who clearly wanted him, it's all enough to even consider the possibility of what could have been if he was given an equal chance.

Besides, I haven't a clue why you're dragging Willian into this. If Mata was here, they would be in different positions - CAM vs. RW. It's not a like-for-like replacement; one is more effective in the final third while the other is not as effective but is harder-working.

I would rather compare Mata with Fabregas in terms of what they're supposed to bring to the team. I'm going into the nuances of it, but essentially Mata is the better player in terms of consistent creativity, set-piece delivery and goal-scoring ability.

Mata has shown that he can contribute consistently throughout a season in his first two seasons. The only thing that is consistent about Cesc is that he goes missing for half a season - always has, always will. And when he does that, he's practically useless. 

Listen, all I know is which I prefer out of:


      Mata                                                Oscar
Matic - Ramires           vs.                Matic - Fabregas

[Tomo 21,733]

1 hour ago, The Mak said:

End product where exactly?! Because you're certainly not talking about as CAM. Yes, he has problems on the wing, but only a fool would play him there instead of CAM. 

That's funny, because the United fans I speak to say that Mata dances all over Rooney in terms of the CAM role but he is barely played there....
 

http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/340486

That's the latest article from a United fan criticising Mata and to say he got a lot of vindication in the responses would be an understatement, in fact it bears almost striking resemblance to the discussions on here about Oscar this time last year, a lot given up on him but some people are clinging on.

1 hour ago, The Mak said:

 

Just imagine for a moment that Mata's momentum from 12/13 was not completely derailed by José arrival and the inexplicable Oscar love-in. Imagine the roles were reversed and Oscar was sold for quite a sum instead.

Now, picture Mata being covered by Matic behind him and Willian on the right. Not to mention having a manager that actually inspires confidence in him, something José or Van Gaal did/do not do. Not thinking that Mata would have the ability to flourish and at least match, or surpass, his achievements in 12/13 in such a system is pretty narrow-minded. Not only this, considering he had 6 goals and 5 assists in 15 appearances under Moyes, a manager who clearly wanted him, it's all enough to even consider the possibility of what could have been if he was given an equal chance.

Mata's momentum wasn't halted by Jose (although he didn't help) his form dipped massively in the second half of 12/13 but I'll get to that in a bit.

Dare I say it but that sounds close to the excuses people made for Torres (i don't think Matas declined as bad, but excuses are excuses), ones like he needs the right players around him and a manager who believes in him etc etc, firstly Jose and Van Gaal have between them won 15 league titles and 3 European Cups between them, maybe if two of the most decorated managers weren't huge fans then there's a reason for it? Secondly he was (under AVB) used on the left and was brilliant and under RDM (permanent) used in the right a lot and was in the form of his career at that time, it's no excuse for just how average he's been for quite some time.

1 hour ago, The Mak said:

I would rather compare Mata with Fabregas in terms of what they're supposed to bring to the team. I'm going into the nuances of it, but essentially Mata is the better player in terms of consistent creativity, set-piece delivery and goal-scoring ability.

Mata has shown that he can contribute consistently throughout a season in his first two seasons. The only thing that is consistent about Cesc is that he goes missing for half a season - always has, always will. And when he does that, he's practically useless. 

Listen, all I know is which I prefer out of:


      Mata                                                Oscar
Matic - Ramires           vs.                Matic - Fabregas

Of course Mata Is the more consistent scorer, he plays further up, and set piece delivery Is another thing Juan isn't anywhere near as good as he use to be in either.

Mata shown consistency through the season In 11/12, but 12/13 he did exactly what you're criticising Cesc for and that's disappearing in the second half, apart from West Ham at home I can't think of one game after January where I thought Mata played really well, (Hazard came back from his ballboy ban and was the one driving us forward in that spell) and this was a period he was playing in his best position and under a manager that liked him.

He still has his talent so there will be games he turns it on and looks very good, however the consistently good week in week out player that we had for 18 months is long gone, three and a bit years is more than just a sticky spell.

[Stats 7,059]

On 10/04/2016 at 10:06 PM, Tomo said:

Mata does produce moments but then so does Oscar, in general Mata has been poor not only for United but his last year here, maybe it's early burnout but he looks a pale shadow of what he was in his first 18 months here (especially the first 5 in 12/13) and he gets away with a lot of criticism seeing he broke United's transfer record.

Also Babara alluded too it but there always seems to be a ready made excuse for Mata, out if position, manager not liking him, strikers not producing, he was on the left a lot under AVB an in 12/13 RDM often played him on the right (due to Oscar pressing at ten) and he was in the form of his career.

Go see what United fans post about him, most are every bit as sick of him as we are of Oscar, if not more.

I don't condone that from Courtois, however keeper position is a little excepted due to never rotating there, outfield however there is always enough rotation that will give players chances.

Of course Traore could but nothing's bulletproof, Lukaku could have messed up at Everton and had his top level career over, at Chelsea if you mess up as a young UN you're get the benefit of the doubt. Point is with Traore he has jumped from 5th choice to second with his little minutes (which makes a mockery of the myth we never gave Lukaku a chance) and has put his name out their to Conte as a trusted squad member, he could have seen Pato threw the door and thought fuck that but he didn't and his hard work has been rewarded.

But he still is not getting enough starts? I personally think he has wasted his season. When you have that good of a loan spell at that age, you want to follow that up by playing at an improved team, albeit getting minutes. He barely has played and one can argue that he has only played because Costa has been suspended and the other being we do not have much to play for. Because next season for what you know, Traore may go back to 3rd choice striker or might not even be favoured.

[Henrique 9,133]

LMAO

Whats up with those books in this topic. Weird. 

[robsblubot 3,529]

Ironically, I think Mata and Oscar are very similar players: not in characteristics mind you, but in that they are both equally ineffective.

Oscar has one thing going for him, which is youth. He may change teams, countries, and leave the slump he's in - yes, he has played better!

After admitting that Oscar has been crap for a very long time, I cannot, for the life of me, understand how people come here to write Oscar is mediocre when half of the squad is equally mediocre. As bad as Oscar has been, he is still sought after, which is more than some of our players can say - they will be moving to china soon because that's their only market. 

[Tomo 21,733]

20 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

So exactly what attribute did Torres/Ba provide us that Lukaku could not. All torres could do back then was fall on the floor and concede possession. Whenever given a start Ba was awful, he was best for that 10 minute cameo. Lukaku provided us with speed and finishing and since we played most of the season on the counter. We failed to score at villa away, palace away and norwich at home in last 5/6 games of our season and thus lost the title. Did not the managers do that or rather still do that while playing us? Congest the middle of the park and expose our pivot. Difference would have been that we would have had 2 brilliant play makers along with a good young striker (i use good to describe lukaku 2 years ago, brilliant for the current one). Sorry mate, by Jose's own admission, this was a squad that needed to "grow". That needed to eat/drink/ whatever hopeless drivel he used back then comparing us to horses/eggs. This would have been the way to go forward. 

If hazard's development was due to etoo, then we should have signed him as a coach, not a semi retired player. Etoo-Kind DD-falcao these were jose's 1st/2nd choice strikers through out his tenure. Abysmal. I would take a 20 year old Lukaku over a 30odd/40odd year old etoo any day of the week of any millenium. And this is where man-management comes to the fore. In a world year, how could you even expect players like Lukaku and Kdb to be sitting on the bench doing nothing, when even they know for a fact that they were the club's best choice for the no.10 or a striker.

I have to ask, how exactly did jose solve ANY of those above mentioned problems? Our pivot is a joke and we have cesc - one of the main culprit for how poor arsenal have been for a decade. We still have no width. And teams Still isolate our pivot over and over again. I may have watched a different season and a half to you if thats not the case. What we should have done is Stuck with Hazard-Kdb-schurrle with mata as our back up no.10. For me, that was always our best attacking trio. Lukaku was a no-brainer. I hope that one season of etoo and hazard's minuscule development and one PL is good enough to cover a decade full of 20 goals a season striker. But for me, we got ripped off in that deal. What we should have done is have the top 4 decided and then build on it. Arsenal main mistake is not that they have a light weight top 4, its the fact that they continue to play with arteta/flamini for years, they have wilshere who cant string 2 matches together. Even now, they have coq-elneny instead of going all out for a proper vidal-like CM. Thats there mistake, atleast in my opinion. I would have settled the attack or even built on it by getting costa and having gotten lukaku's trust by having him as my no.1 striker for a season. In a 60 match season, 2 good strikers are the minimum that are required. And then mainly built on the DM position with the likes of Matic, Ramires, Vidal/Radja. 

Ps - Youth and Young should not be equated. We would have had a "Young" top4, but these were players who have been playing for the first team for atleast 5 years, and who had played for multiple leagues and were regarded as the best talents in the world.

Ok we will never agree on the youth thing so best to agree to disagree, one thing that did get my attention was the Cesc thing, how is he one of the main culprits for Arsenal being poor for a decade exactly?

[chelseafan26 293]

4 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Ok we will never agree on the youth thing so best to agree to disagree, one thing that did get my attention was the Cesc thing, how is he one of the main culprits for Arsenal being poor for a decade exactly?

2004-11, thats 7 seasons. 

[Tomo 21,733]

2 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

2004-11, thats 7 seasons. 

But you said he was one if main culprits for Arsenal being so poor.

[Thor 2,435]

I've never been a big fan of his, yet he does have the occasional game where you wonder how good he could be. At this point though he is at an age where I'm beginning to care less and less. 

After all this time, he still has one of the worst and most inconsistent first touches I have ever seen for a "skilled" player like himself. He is infuriating to watch at times. I know someone mentioned it, but like Mata I feel he is a no impact player. They are both great at making things look harder than they are, and they simply aren't efficient IMO. I can't wait for us to get rid of him. His overrated technical ability is something I cannot bear to hear about anymore. He just doesn't have the capacity or skill to be a great player, and then you add onto the fact that he isn't physically top notch either in terms of strength or balance, and you're left with an average player. 

Now would be a great time to get rid of him with his stock as high as it is. 

[chelseafan26 293]

18 hours ago, Tomo said:

But you said he was one if main culprits for Arsenal being so poor.

Are not the problems that Arsenal faced in those years same or at the very least "very similar" to what we are facing right now? Porous midfields, Higher turnovers, Mid getting bullied off the park, trying to score that perfect goal etc etc.

Cant just be a co-incidence.

Lets be honest, while cesc can play his quarter-backish passes brilliantly, his ball retention is tight spaces is a shambles. Moreover, for someone heralded as the king of creativity, cesc really does not create much if you take out his long balls which have a very low conversion rate. Then is the point of his set piece deliveries. And finally we come to his defensive workrate and ability. While a lot of stats show that cesc actually covers a lot of ground (which frankly i have a hard time in believing), I think its due to the fact that he is continously "Jogging". To be fair to cesc, I dont think his jogging and his sprint speeds would be that different. I see a lot of it in RLC too. He keeps on Jogging and then puts in a half hearted tackle, only to be easily passed up by the opposition attacker. Since RLC is currently playing as a no.10, this flaw is not getting highlighted. Another thing is while cesc's long balls create our best chances of the matches, they also result 90% of the times in returning the possession back to the opposition defence/GK. 

Hence, why I said that one of the main culprits for arsenal/chelsea's defensive frailities and attacking deficiency is cesc.

[chelseafan26 293]

On the other hand, KDB scored 2 out of city's 3 goals to take his team to the semis of the Champions League against a team that absolutely annihilated us home and away. 

I seriously dont think that some people understand the magnitude of Jose's "mistakes" and "failures" in his 2nd term. He has single handedly set us back atleast 5 years. 

[Special Juan 27,439]

1 hour ago, chelseafan26 said:

On the other hand, KDB scored 2 out of city's 3 goals to take his team to the semis of the Champions League against a team that absolutely annihilated us home and away. 

I seriously dont think that some people understand the magnitude of Jose's "mistakes" and "failures" in his 2nd term. He has single handedly set us back atleast 5 years. 

I agree 100%

[lucio 5,418]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/660607/Antonio-Conte-Chelsea-Oscar-Juventus-transfer-news

Antonio Conte has told Chelsea star he will be sold: Incoming Blues boss wants £28m deal

ANTONIO CONTE is reportedly willing to sell Chelsea midfielder Oscar to Juventus for just £28million.