The Illuminati Thread

[SinineUltra 1,170]

I said the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're saying I said. I wrote "You can like someones' music and still think they are a scumbag but most people can't make the distinction between the art and the man and you obviously can't. ". I don't care if someone likes his music or not or thinks he's a good musician, but to respect a person who was a scumbag is something else. The history of art if filled with racists and sexists and I can love their art and hate them. Terry has been a great footballer and his private life has no effect on that. However, had he been a convicted rapist, I don't think any of us would want him on the team no matter how good he was. Comparing cheating, something most people in their lives do at one point to rape and violent assault is absurd. Next time, read what I actually write.

@Kojo, you are actually saying that Drake because he was not actually poor is worse than Tupac who was a criminal and a violent rapist. You are actually saying that being a phony is worse than rape. That is so insane it doesn't dignify a response.

There is no need to convince us. Besides, who are you to judge who is adequate to make their own choices or not? I'm sure people you idolize aren't as 'good' people as you think. So in a sense, it is very eccentric to start labeling people you barely know just because you've got a god complex.

We don't know the background of the story, only thing that he was sentenced to jail. But looking at the time, he was black, he had the perfect image to be blackmailed and the woman MIGHT have used that against him. It is very hard for someone to prove otherwise. I'm not defending raping but I'm asking you to see a bigger picture here also. Fact is, he was a convicted criminal, but we don't know the real story behind this, if he really did it or was he set up. Moreover, after that he changed, he put that dark side of his life past him and focused on improving his message through music. People can change and in my opinion he did.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

There is no need to convince us. Besides, who are you to judge who is adequate to make their own choices or not? I'm sure people you idolize aren't as 'good' people as you think. We don't know the background of the story, only thing that he was sentenced to jail. But looking at the time, he was black, he had the perfect image to be blackmailed and the woman MIGHT have used that against him. It is very hard for someone to prove otherwise. I'm not defending raping but I'm asking you to see a bigger picture here also. Fact is, he was a convicted criminal, but we don't know the real story behind this, if he really did it or was he set up.

Nonsense. He was a convicted rapist. Rape is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute. The arrest rate for rape is about 25%. The conviction rate is much lower. If it's just he said/she said, you will not get a conviction It's possible that there is some vast conspiracy.You're pretending like it's 50/50, maybe he raped her, maybe he didn't. It isn't. He was convicted in a court of law of rape and was never exonerated. Therefore, he is a rapist. People want to believe the best of people they like, but the evidence just isn't on his side. Even if he weren't a rapist (which he was), he was violent criminal. He shot people, he attacked people. He was arrested multiple times for real violence.

The people I idolize are not musicians or celebs or actors. They are people who have effected change in the world and yes, they were all deeply flawed people, sometimes not even good people (but they were capable of doing something amazing and I respect that thing). Martin Luther King was a philanderer, Lincoln's views on race would be outrageous today, but I don't lie to myself about who these people actually were. I don't pretend that there is some conspiracy to misquote Lincoln.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

Nonsense. He was a convicted rapist. Rape is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute. The arrest rate for rape is about 25%. The conviction rate is much lower. If it's just he said/she said, you will not get a conviction It's possible that there is some vast conspiracy.You're pretending like it's 50/50, maybe he raped her, maybe he didn't. It isn't. He was convicted in a court of law of rape and was never exonerated. Therefore, he is a rapist. People want to believe the best of people they like, but the evidence just isn't on his side. Even if he weren't a rapist (which he was), he was violent criminal. He shot people, he attacked people. He was arrested multiple times for real violence.

The people I idolize are not musicians or celebs or actors. They are people who have effected change in the world and yes, they were all deeply flawed people, sometimes not even good people (but they were capable of doing something amazing and I respect that thing). Martin Luther King was a philanderer, Lincoln's views on race would be outrageous today, but I don't lie to myself about who these people actually were. I don't pretend that there is some conspiracy to misquote Lincoln.

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't depict it as black and white as you'd like to make out of it. He was a convicted criminal and nothing's going to change that. I respect your decision not to like him for a good reason, but don't try to play Freud and analyze others about what they can distinguish and what not, you might be 34 and have more life experience than most of us here, but undervaluing others and overvaluing yourself is a complacent and egocentric way.

By the way, safe options to name as your idols - can't go wrong with that, eh?

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't depict it as black and white as you'd like to make out of it. He was a convicted criminal and nothing's going to change that. I respect your decision not to like him for a good reason, but don't try to play Freud and analyze others about what they can distinguish and what not, you might be 34 and have more life experience than most of us here, but undervaluing others and overvaluing yourself is a complacent and egocentric way.

By the way, safe options to name as your idols - can't go wrong with that, eh?

I don't generally idolize people because people are flawed and not worth idolizing, but I idolize things they do. Some people do great things like the ones I mentioned or people that are less well known. I think Jonas Salk was fantastic (created polio vaccine and refused to patent it so that everyone could get access). I also really admire Hitchock because I love his movies but he was perv and I don't admire him as a person. Napoleon was a tyrant and a war criminal bought he also did a lot of good (like bringing in the Napoleonic code to Europe which was a massive step up from what was before). I don't care if someone loves Tupac's music more than anything else in the world. I think Polanski is a very interesting director and he was a rapist, you just need to separate the art (or deeds) from the person. Tupac made great music. Fine. Tupac was an influential musician, fine. Tupac was an inspiration to you musically? Fine. But Tupac as someone you look up to as human being? Sorry, I don't respect that in the least.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

I don't generally idolize people because people are flawed and not worth idolizing, but I idolize things they do. Some people do great things like the ones I mentioned or people that are less well known. I think Jonas Salk was fantastic (created polio vaccine and refused to patent it so that everyone could get access). I also really admire Hitchock because I love his movies but he was perv and I don't admire him as a person. Napoleon was a tyrant and a war criminal bought he also did a lot of good (like bringing in the Napoleonic code to Europe which was a massive step up from what was before). I don't care if someone loves Tupac's music more than anything else in the world. I think Polanski is a very interesting director and he was a rapist, you just need to separate the art (or deeds) from the person. Tupac made great music. Fine. Tupac was an influential musician, fine. Tupac was an inspiration to you musically? Fine. But Tupac as someone you look up to as human being? Sorry, I don't respect that in the least.

Actually I don't get it where you suddenly took that I liked him as a person. I just don't have a negative mindset about him and RESPECT him regardless of what he did. Music brings happiness to a lot of people, it helps to look up when you're down and motivates to keep going. Be it pop music, rap, classical music. 2pac and his genre is no different. The reason why all this discussion took off in the first place wasn't about people having a man crush on him like mindless puppies, it was about you starting to slate Tupac and worship Drake, which is fine - Jedem das Seine - but strictly on musical background they are incomparable. He as a person also contributed a lot to the community with making donations worth of millions, rhyming about topics that didn't make him popular and raising the awareness of the society as an whole. One can say that was what got him pinpointed and killed in the end.

The reason why I like his music is the message. I'm not a violent person suppressed by the society and being angry at them. I'm a peaceful minded chap who happens to have similar world views as he did in his songs - when you can look past all the swear words and slang. Like him I prioritize my family above rest, I strive to better myself every day and try to stay level headed and humane - a trait that is very rare in today's 'happy-go-lucky' word, where the stress is on the word I rather than WE.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Actually I don't get it where you suddenly took that I liked him as a person. I just don't have a negative mindset about him and RESPECT him regardless of what he did. Music brings happiness to a lot of people, it helps to look up when you're down and motivates to keep going. Be it pop music, rap, classical music. 2pac and his genre is no different. The reason why all this discussion took off in the first place wasn't about people having a man crush on him like mindless puppies, it was about you starting to slate Tupac and worship Drake, which is fine - Jedem das Seine - but strictly on musical background they are incomparable. He as a person also contributed a lot to the community with making donations worth of millions, rhyming about topics that didn't make him popular and raising the awareness of the society as an whole. One can say that is what got him pinpointed and killed in the end.

The reason why I like his music is the message. I'm not a violent person suppressed by the society and being angry at them. I'm a peaceful minded chap who happens to have similar world views as he did in his songs - when you can look past all the swear words and slang.

I never said that Drake was great. Again, I said the exact opposite. I don't like his music at all. and I said so and if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that. What I opposed and still oppose was the ridiculous notion that being fake is somehow the worst sin, that growing up as a middle class kid is worse than being a violent rapist. And no, what got Tupac killed was a feud with other violent gangsters not any political stand (and what stand would that be, that life for inner city blacks was tough? That the LAPD was racist? Well, this was very widely known for decades before Tupac was ever heard of). He led a life of extreme violence surrounded by guns and shootings and he died the way he lived.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

I never said that Drake was great. Again, I said the exact opposite. I don't like his music at all. and I said so and if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that. What I opposed and still oppose was the ridiculous notion that being fake is somehow the worst sin, that growing up as a middle class kid is worse than being a violent rapist. And no, what got Tupac killed was a feud with other violent gangsters not any political stand (and what stand would that be, that life for inner city blacks was tough? That the LAPD was racist? Well, this was very widely known for decades before Tupac was ever heard of). He led a life of extreme violence surrounded by guns and shootings and he died the way he lived.

Did you mean Drake being fake or people in general? Because in the latter case being fake makes you fake, get it? Means you yourself are such a miserable human being that you have to play some role assigned to you to fit in. Then again we could use the simple gray mass who are easily manipulated and formed in the way we want. I think comparing a criminal act to 'a middle class kid' is something you've blown out of proportion, it is obvious noone would think the way you just described it.

Thinking 2pac had only enemies from his 'gangster' circle is quite naive. He said things that outraged a lot of high governing people. You can downgrade every artist you don't like, doesn't make them less influencial. Especially only if you've picked up his dislike for the law enforcement and his adolescent life's struggle. Till the killers of him aren't brought to justice, you can't go on saying 'no, im a narrowminded person and this is exactly how it went down', regardless if he lived a more dangerous life than most of us.

If you're so opposed to Drake, why did you even start this pointless argument? It's like having a debate on religion. You saw that some of us like his works, some not. Most of people would respect that and would not start to poke and throw around 'knowledge', which you've brilliantly manipulated with by trying to make me look like a pro rapist, pro Tupac, anti-Drake while making yourself look like a saint with safe cliche rolemodels and convenient bits and pieces from one's past disregarding everything else the person worked for. Serious answer please, won't reply to some nonsense in order not to cause a turmoil on a topic like this.

I also believe this gangster lifestyle was all an act to gain more audience, like posted previously by someone ( maybe even you). ''The idea of "the gangster" has always been nonsense, an image sold to white suburban teenagers to give them a thrill. ''. So don't read too much into it yourself.

[Kojo 4,676]

I never said that Drake was great. Again, I said the exact opposite. I don't like his music at all. and I said so and if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that. What I opposed and still oppose was the ridiculous notion that being fake is somehow the worst sin, that growing up as a middle class kid is worse than being a violent rapist. And no, what got Tupac killed was a feud with other violent gangsters not any political stand (and what stand would that be, that life for inner city blacks was tough? That the LAPD was racist? Well, this was very widely known for decades before Tupac was ever heard of). He led a life of extreme violence surrounded by guns and shootings and he died the way he lived.

Not middle class, RICH get over it, wouldn't surprise me if you were some typical rich kid. The ends justify the means, Tupac had a dark past, so would anyone in his position. He also had a bit too much power, more than he could handle, he was still a good person regardless.

Drake is waste of space enough said, he contributes nothing to this world. Tupac is inspirational towards so many people, that's why Tupac is loved so much across the world, he is highly respected because of the man he was. If i could swap my life to Drakes life right now and live the life he is living i would say no, because i would rather have my pride than be the stupid bastard he is. If i had the power he has and the money, i would want that to be earned and to show i fought for something, i stood for something, actually be a symbol.

[Beepu 1,714]

I know and have met several people whose grandparents/great-grandparents and even further than that are free masons, they all say somehow they are effected in a negative way by this association even when they are not in it. I dont know what they do in there, but alot of high level free masons have come out and say scary things about it, like once you get in its almost impossible to get out, etc. I heard the president of the US needed to join the free masons to be in office, i dont know if its true.

And isnt the illuminati symbol in the US dollar bill?? And alot of rappers and artists refers to it alot. I dont know what kind of secret society it is, ive never did any research.

[Peace. 4,352]

Illuminatis are just a smoke screen to hide the real criminals : the banksters. Don't believe in such fairy tales. The reality is more plain than that. Yes, there's a few men controling all the world, but they ain't no wizards in black dress who worship some old babylonian deities. If they were to believe in some God, that would be Jehovah. And they ain't doing this for some mysterious and occult grand scheme.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I know and have met several people whose grandparents/great-grandparents and even further than that are free masons, they all say somehow they are effected in a negative way by this association even when they are not in it. I dont know what they do in there, but alot of high level free masons have come out and say scary things about it, like once you get in its almost impossible to get out, etc. I heard the president of the US needed to join the free masons to be in office, i dont know if its true.

And isnt the illuminati symbol in the US dollar bill?? And alot of rappers and artists refers to it alot. I dont know what kind of secret society it is, ive never did any research.

It's a freemason symbol, but like all conspiracy theories, the facts are not nearly as interesting. The great eye was adopted by the US government in 1782. The freemasons adopted the symbol in 1797. My grandfather was a freemason. All these sorts of things (like Skull and Bones) are just old boys clubs where they have stupid rituals and gather together to drink and socialize. Their members tend to be from powerful, rich families so they go on to have power, but that's a function of a society that rewards the children of the rich with immense privilege, not a conspiracy.

@Peace. I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying.

[Peace. 4,352]

It's a freemason symbol, but like all conspiracy theories, the facts are not nearly as interesting. The great eye was adopted by the US government in 1782. The freemasons adopted the symbol in 1797. My grandfather was a freemason. All these sorts of things (like Skull and Bones) are just old boys clubs where they have stupid rituals and gather together to drink and socialize. Their members tend to be from powerful, rich families so they go on to have power, but that's a function of a society that rewards the children of the rich with immense privilege, not a conspiracy.

@Peace. I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying.

If you're thinking what I am thinking you're thinking, then no I am not saying what you're thinking I am saying

P.S. To be sure, what are you thinking ?

[DDA 9,690]

I never said that Drake was great. Again, I said the exact opposite. I don't like his music at all. and I said so and if you had read what I wrote, you would have seen that. What I opposed and still oppose was the ridiculous notion that being fake is somehow the worst sin, that growing up as a middle class kid is worse than being a violent rapist. And no, what got Tupac killed was a feud with other violent gangsters not any political stand (and what stand would that be, that life for inner city blacks was tough? That the LAPD was racist? Well, this was very widely known for decades before Tupac was ever heard of). He led a life of extreme violence surrounded by guns and shootings and he died the way he lived.

'He died the way he lived' ...

Exactly why people hail him and others who stay real to the message they convey through their music. Wether you like it or not Toronto, Hip Hop was born in the poverty stricken streets of New York, The Bronx. It's the poverish history that made Hip Hop authentic and gave people who struggle in life something to relate to, an outlet of expression. When Pac hit the mic you felt the pain in his voice and the message was believable! I'm not saying therefore middle-class rappers like Drake can't possibly know how to make good music because they haven't come from a poor background but look at the current economical climate. Who the fuck can relate to Drakes shitty auto tune raps about being mega rich and driving expensive cars? I'm from a poor place so I personally prefer the Hip Hop that derrived from it's birthplace, the poor, multi cultural, violent streets in The Bronx not all these commercial company driven puppets.

[manpe 10,861]

Just saw this clip of Saturday Night Live dated 18 March 2000, mentioning Bush, oil, Bin Laden, Pakistan (where OBL was found), a plane hijack and showing an image of the WTC. I'm fascinated by such coincidences.