Politics & Stuff

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:22, cosmicway said:

This is a wikipediia article writen by pro-Palestinians.

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bullshit

it is heavily referenced (footnoted) neutral article that is subject to constant and myriad numbers of fact checks

as for 'hostile population'

you would be hostile too if your ethnic group had millions of refugees driven off your lands, scattered all over the globe, and also over a century of ever-expansive land land grabs, including what is going on now right before the world's eyes

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

Edited October 23, 2024 by Vesper

[Fernando 6,533]

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:09, Vesper said:

Third Arab–Israeli War

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Third Arab-Israeli war. 

Like I been saying for a while, many of these arabs country hate Israel and want them to be drowned into the sea. 

Israel has defended themselves and because of that won land. 

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:09, Vesper said:

Military hostilities broke out amid poor relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours, who had been observing the 1949 Armistice Agreements signed at the end of the First Arab–Israeli War.

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First Arab war again these are always the Arab countries that want to destroy Israel. 

 

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:09, Vesper said:

The Israeli ultranationalist Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister in Netanyahu's government and open Jewish supremacist, participated on Sunday, March 19, in a gala evening in Paris, organized by "Israel is Forever," a French Jewish association close to the far right.

Although it had been announced 10 days beforehand, Smotrich's arrival on the banks of the Seine was a surprise. In the middle of the previous week, following protests from pro-Palestinian movements and human rights organizations, Israeli media reported that the 43-year-old leader of the Religious Zionist Party had given up on the trip.

Smotrich, who arrived from the United States, where he had no official meeting, only stayed a few hours in Paris and did not meet with government officials. The French Foreign Office had made it known last week that it had no intention of receiving the controversial Israeli minister.

During the ceremony, Smotrich spoke from behind a lectern decorated with a map that included not only the Jewish state and the occupied Palestinian territories but also the territory of present-day Jordan: the Greater Israel area for the proponents of an expansionist ideology.

He gave a speech in which he urged French Jews to settle in Israel, a common call from Israeli leaders visiting France. But Smotrich (who recently called for the Palestinian village of Huwara in the West Bank to be "wiped out" in retaliation for the murder of two Jewish settlers) also made remarks full of contempt for the Palestinians.

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Yes this I don't agree with, land grab because they want it. 

What I do agree if is these countries attack them and they go an attack them and decided to get the land then yes, because it's war. 

Now the conspiracy will say, Israel provoke these wars so they can have a legitime reason to attack and get the war. Well that is something else, and it's all conspiracy like the 911 conspiracy.

In the end my point still stand, other then certifying 100% that this conspiracy is true Israel is just defending themselves. They got their land after multiple wars with Arab nations and the world is not happy about that. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Fernando

[Fernando 6,533]

  On 23/10/2024 at 07:47, Fulham Broadway said:

they will suffer revenge attacks for decades, people that have lost parents, children, whole families. Just slaughtered

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So basically, if they "end the genocide" the bloodshed will never end, because of the revenge attack you mentioned and then we go back to the same loop. 

This is a never ending cycle, hence long lasting peace will never be achievable. Because you can try to make a two state solution or even one state solution, but as you just alluded revenge will always be there. 

This reminds me of the TV series that air many years ago, Battlestar Galactica. A cycle of never ending bloodshed. 

Humanity is broken, and unless a divine power intervenes we will never solve this cycle of bloodshed.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:29, Fernando said:

So basically, if they "end the genocide" the bloodshed will never end, because of the revenge attack you mentioned and then we go back to the same loop. 

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All the neighbours have said go back to the 1967 land grabs and there will be peace. my answer would be - Israel could call their bluff and see what happens. Nothing to lose. The current Ultra Right Wing government do not want this, they do not want two states, just like the nazis they invade, slaughter, and take the land. Israel needs a new government imo

[Fernando 6,533]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:32, Fulham Broadway said:

All the neighbours have said go back to the 1967 land grabs and there will be peace. my answer would be - Israel could call their bluff and see what happens. Nothing to lose. The current Ultra Right Wing government do not want this, they do not want two states, just like the nazis they invade, slaughter, and take the land. Israel needs a new government imo

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They will do it eventually, but it will not resolved anything. The desire for revenge and hatred of the Jew will always be there. 

How do you explain a Nazi leader decided that the final solution was to get rid of Jews? 

There is a fascination with blaming everything under the sun on the Jews. 

So yes you will get the two state solution but it will never get rid of the problem. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Fernando

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:37, Fernando said:

They will do it eventually. But it will not resolved anything. The desire for revenge and hatred of the Jew will always be there. 

How do you explain a Nazi leader decided that the final solution was to get rid of Jews? 

There is a fascination with blaming everything under the sun on the Jews. 

So yes you will get the two state solution but it will never get rid of the problem. 

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Its important to differentiate between jews, Israel, and zionism. To conflate them is problematic. 

Many zionists with their expansionist right wing policies if confronted, immediately play the anti semitic card. Conversley there are gentile and muslims, as you say, that blame jews. Separate entities completely. There is a large Jews Against Zionism movement. 

The current israeli government have zero intention of two states. Imo one state, and they all get along....fantasy

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:17, Vesper said:

bullshit

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9/10 of his posts just made up nonsense

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:17, Vesper said:

bullshit

it is heavily referenced (footnoted) neutral article that is subject to constant and myriad numbers of fact checks

as for 'hostile population you would be hostile too if your ethnic group had millions of refugees ...

 

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I agree wikipedia are strict.
Once I helped write an article about a musician of the Greek national philharmonic. It stayed for a while then they took it off - because not enough stuff was known about him in the musical world.
But they would n't take down a submission of the Arab countries

The term apartheid as I stipulated does not apply for hostile subpopulations even if the dominant population are the wrong doers and we, the outsiders, think of them as the wrongdoers because it does n't make sense.

To make this into small coins, suppose we talk about a commie in Greece in 1949.
He is not in the mountains, he is in a town.
The police chase him allover the place and if he asks anybody for a job the answer is no.
The commies are right, the nationalists are in the wrong, says we, the two KKE comrades.
But the commies were firing mortars against the nationalists at the time.
Therefore what ... apartheid ?

You write whatever takes your fancy and the Pals cause would have been won by now if they used peaceful methods, decades ago.
Suppose the six day war of 1967 has happened and we are in 1970 with the plane hijackings by that woman, Leila Khaled.
She was n't hurting anybody though.
So they could have switched to peaceful negotiations and win their case, Europe had become sympathetic.
But no - they went for Munich.

Edited October 23, 2024 by cosmicway

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 23/10/2024 at 13:18, Fernando said:

First Arab war again these are always the Arab countries that want to destroy Israel. 

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Modern Israel was illegally founded from the beginning.

They just unilaterally self-declared and if not for the US they enver would have gotten away with it.

They continue to gangster up more and more land that was not theirs since 2000 years ago (they only had control of it for a very short time in the long millinia-distant past and some of Eretz Ysreal was never really theirs at all when you look at the truly expansionist maps), all based off Bronze religious bollocks

here is a timeline of control over the past 4000 years

the jews controlled it for an incredibly short amount of time

until post WWII they had not controlled it for 2050 years, and that was only for a short amount of time

Hasmonean dynasty
ממלכת החשמונאים
140 BCE–37 BCE

before that you have to go back 2,600 years

 

as late as  the mid 1800's there were only 10,000 to 15K jews there

in 1918 there were 60,000 versus 600,000 non jews

 

[Fernando 6,533]

  On 23/10/2024 at 16:51, Vesper said:

Modern Israel was illegally founded from the beginning.

 

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How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being dispersed for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land their culture goes extinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

  On 23/10/2024 at 16:51, Vesper said:

all based off Bronze religious bollocks

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It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Fernando

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 23/10/2024 at 17:01, Fernando said:

How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being

for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land they go instinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

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it's all bullshit

that land is not Israel's by divine right, nor length of control

its a myth from myths

[Fernando 6,533]

  On 23/10/2024 at 17:05, Vesper said:

it's all bullshit

that land is not Israel's by divine right, nor length of control

its a myth from myths

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Well based on your charts they had it and they are the only culture from that time that is still alive today. All other cultures from that time are extinct. Assimilated into modern culture. 

That being said it was funded with the help of the USA and UN after WW2 when Hitler decided that the final solution was to exterminate the Jews. An insane thing when the Jews where not even a nation, how a powerful dictator decided that the jews extermination was the solution.....

And Yes I would tell you that is spiritual influence but you wouldn't believe that. So for the non religious view then there's no other reason to explain the madness of Hitler in taking it out against the Jews other then he was crazy....

But yeah that was the context of modern Israel being founded. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 23/10/2024 at 17:01, Fernando said:

How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being dispersed for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land their culture goes extinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

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Agreed. UN, which is a fucking joke, is only mentioned here when it's convenient.

I don't particularly care about the claim regarding land; throughout history land has been conquered by various empires and military forces. Russia is doing that this very moment! Every land is "declared" someone's at some point in time...

The goal for most if not all Palestine leaders is the extermination of Israelis and the removal of that country. It's that simple. You cannot negotiate such terms. A two-state solution was not accepted when it was on the table because of that.

[Vesper 29,406]

Hasbara

Hasbara is Hebrew for The Explanation. It is the official multifaceted, holistic, systemically controlled state (extrapolated out to global levels) propaganda campaign/infrastructure of not just the Israeli government but many parts the jewish diaspora itself. 

Think AIPAC in the USA, the MSM in the entire West, the Bretton Woods international banking system (as well as the multinational private banks) , Hollywood, many structural parts of worldwide universities, most neocon and neoliberal think tanks, the MIC within most of the US/UK/NATO superstructure, etc. etc. etc.

These move in hyper-complicated interlocking (both direct and indirect) mechanisms at a multiplicity of levels to promote and control  and ensure that the narratives and geo-political, geo-cultural, geo-economic, geo-military outcomes always are steered to favour and empower that particular small, tribalist, racist, supremacist group.

Endless wars, endless debt (at all levels from personal up to commercial, from municipal, up to state/provincial levels, from national up to supranational) endless 'strategies of tensions' at all levels, from socio-cultural, socio-economic, up to military at massive trans continental levels. Also the use of systemic banking control to weaken all resistance and put the boot-heels to the so-called middle-class of the West and other parts of the world (think austerity regimes and IMF/World Bank crisis capitalism and state economic dis-empowerment.) who are the natural bulwarks against the entire systemic control.

A perfect example is the Arc of Crisis. From the Western part of Africa, up through the Maghreb, over into the Levant, then the Middle East, and onward into Afghanistan, etc, right up to the door of China and southern Russia. Light it up with decades of war, which in turn causes massive inflows of refugees spilling into the West, thus destabilising their populations.

When the Bush/Blair regimes leave power after spinning up Iraq and Afghanistan, you bring in Obama (war slag Clinton included) and other neoliberal pro-empiric war Euro leaders who then crush Libya, and try to crush Syria, etc, with the endgame in that arena being the destruction of Iran. This whole accordion (a bit of the old in/out in/out) action template continued on with Trump and now Biden. All are or were parts of the dog being wagged by the tail.

In terms of the socio-political, the Likud and other RW Israeli (and indeed elements with the diaspora itself) parties openly now work with radical far right parties, up to and including neo-nazis and christofascists, in Europe, the US, and other parts of the 'West', all under the common public rubric of being 'anti-Islamic' (the old 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' shite). This all also ensures vast socio-political and socio-cultural instabilities that can be further manipulated for economic and political gain and the furtherance of neo-feudalism and debt slavery at most all levels.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Vesper

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

The IDF was formed from three different proscribed terrorist groups that terrorised the British, Palestinians, and anyone that stood in their way. The three terrorist groups were Irgun, Haganah and Lehi. They committed so many atrocities before 1948. Those Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi terrorists went on to be Prime Ministers and senior Israeli government officials.

Then when the US realised its strategic importance in the Middle East, a client state was born - a veneer of democracy, masking an overblown entitlement, along with a homicidal view of Arabs. Toxic combination. However, very lucrative for the military industrial complex, its shareholders, and keeping the Middle East on fire

[cosmicway 1,333]

  On 23/10/2024 at 17:16, robsblubot said:

Agreed. UN, which is a fucking joke, is only mentioned here when it's convenient.

I don't particularly care about the claim regarding land; throughout history land has been conquered by various empires and military forces. Russia is doing that this very moment! Every land is "declared" someone's at some point in time...

The goal for most if not all Palestine leaders is the extermination of Israelis and the removal of that country. It's that simple. You cannot negotiate such terms. A two-state solution was not accepted when it was on the table because of that.

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The so called Palestinians wanted to just kill all the Jews since ever and they were at least just as fanatical antisemites as the nazis.
Allies with Hitler.
Hitler made some use of them in the war. He was kept from using them more and create an Arab force to fight alongside Rommel by Mussolini. Mussolini had a thing with the Libyans and his general Badoglio was mass murdering them (n.b. Badoglio was the one who surrendered in 1943 and hence acquitted for his war crimes), Because of the Italian objections an unhappy Hitler postponed the creation of the Arab battalion indefinitely and after 1943 his forces were of course defeated in Africa and gone from there.
After the war Nasser was usiing nazi advisers to help him build rockets against Israel - the Soviet advisers appeared in the scene much later, in the sixties.

[Vesper 29,406]

  On 23/10/2024 at 18:13, Fulham Broadway said:

The IDF was formed from three different proscribed terrorist groups that terrorised the British, Palestinians, and anyone that stood in their way. The three terrorist groups were Irgun, Haganah and Lehi. They committed so many atrocities before 1948. Those Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi terrorists went on to be Prime Ministers and senior Israeli government officials.

Then when the US realised its strategic importance in the Middle East, a client state was born - a veneer of democracy, masking an overblown entitlement, along with a homicidal view of Arabs. Toxic combination. However, very lucrative for the military industrial complex, its shareholders, and keeping the Middle East on fire

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Israel is a regional cat's paw, as I posted on before.

here

 

and here (almost a year ago)

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 23/10/2024 at 18:19, Vesper said:

Israel is a regional cat's paw, as I posted on before.

here

 

and here (almost a year ago)

 

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The Zionist leaders’ assumption that the Palestinians were bribable, that they could be bought, and that they would accept Jewish domination in exchange for nominal economic benefits They declared as early as 1923 that:

Our peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine, in return for cultural and economic advantages. I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are five hundred years behind us, they have neither our endurance nor our determination; but they are just as good psychologists as we are …. We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. They feel at least the same instinctive jealous love of Palestine, as the old Aztecs felt for ancient Mexico, and the Sioux for their rolling Prairies.