Politics & Stuff

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

27 minutes ago, Vesper said:

bullshit

9/10 of his posts just made up nonsense

[cosmicway 1,333]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

bullshit

it is heavily referenced (footnoted) neutral article that is subject to constant and myriad numbers of fact checks

as for 'hostile population you would be hostile too if your ethnic group had millions of refugees ...

 

I agree wikipedia are strict.
Once I helped write an article about a musician of the Greek national philharmonic. It stayed for a while then they took it off - because not enough stuff was known about him in the musical world.
But they would n't take down a submission of the Arab countries

The term apartheid as I stipulated does not apply for hostile subpopulations even if the dominant population are the wrong doers and we, the outsiders, think of them as the wrongdoers because it does n't make sense.

To make this into small coins, suppose we talk about a commie in Greece in 1949.
He is not in the mountains, he is in a town.
The police chase him allover the place and if he asks anybody for a job the answer is no.
The commies are right, the nationalists are in the wrong, says we, the two KKE comrades.
But the commies were firing mortars against the nationalists at the time.
Therefore what ... apartheid ?

You write whatever takes your fancy and the Pals cause would have been won by now if they used peaceful methods, decades ago.
Suppose the six day war of 1967 has happened and we are in 1970 with the plane hijackings by that woman, Leila Khaled.
She was n't hurting anybody though.
So they could have switched to peaceful negotiations and win their case, Europe had become sympathetic.
But no - they went for Munich.

Edited October 23, 2024 by cosmicway

[Vesper 30,233]

9 minutes ago, Fernando said:

First Arab war again these are always the Arab countries that want to destroy Israel. 

Modern Israel was illegally founded from the beginning.

They just unilaterally self-declared and if not for the US they enver would have gotten away with it.

They continue to gangster up more and more land that was not theirs since 2000 years ago (they only had control of it for a very short time in the long millinia-distant past and some of Eretz Ysreal was never really theirs at all when you look at the truly expansionist maps), all based off Bronze religious bollocks

here is a timeline of control over the past 4000 years

the jews controlled it for an incredibly short amount of time

until post WWII they had not controlled it for 2050 years, and that was only for a short amount of time

Hasmonean dynasty
ממלכת החשמונאים
140 BCE–37 BCE

before that you have to go back 2,600 years

 

as late as  the mid 1800's there were only 10,000 to 15K jews there

in 1918 there were 60,000 versus 600,000 non jews

 

[Fernando 6,585]

12 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Modern Israel was illegally founded from the beginning.

 

How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being dispersed for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land their culture goes extinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

12 minutes ago, Vesper said:

all based off Bronze religious bollocks

It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Fernando

[Vesper 30,233]

2 minutes ago, Fernando said:

How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being

for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land they go instinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

it's all bullshit

that land is not Israel's by divine right, nor length of control

its a myth from myths

[Fernando 6,585]

2 minutes ago, Vesper said:

it's all bullshit

that land is not Israel's by divine right, nor length of control

its a myth from myths

Well based on your charts they had it and they are the only culture from that time that is still alive today. All other cultures from that time are extinct. Assimilated into modern culture. 

That being said it was funded with the help of the USA and UN after WW2 when Hitler decided that the final solution was to exterminate the Jews. An insane thing when the Jews where not even a nation, how a powerful dictator decided that the jews extermination was the solution.....

And Yes I would tell you that is spiritual influence but you wouldn't believe that. So for the non religious view then there's no other reason to explain the madness of Hitler in taking it out against the Jews other then he was crazy....

But yeah that was the context of modern Israel being founded. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

7 minutes ago, Fernando said:

How so? When it was the UN that approved this. 

But if not, just like everything else let's also blame USA  for all the woeful decisions of the past two centuries. 

Do you even bother to ask why? 

Why USA and the UN allow Israel to become a nation? Especially after being dispersed for nearly 2,000 years....something amazing, miraculous if you might see it that way as no such thing ever happen in the history of mankind. People when they get expelled from their land their culture goes extinct because of assimilation. Never happen with the Jews, quite remarkable. 

It's called archeology my friend. If you want to negate that, then that's all together something else. 

Agreed. UN, which is a fucking joke, is only mentioned here when it's convenient.

I don't particularly care about the claim regarding land; throughout history land has been conquered by various empires and military forces. Russia is doing that this very moment! Every land is "declared" someone's at some point in time...

The goal for most if not all Palestine leaders is the extermination of Israelis and the removal of that country. It's that simple. You cannot negotiate such terms. A two-state solution was not accepted when it was on the table because of that.

[Vesper 30,233]

Hasbara

Hasbara is Hebrew for The Explanation. It is the official multifaceted, holistic, systemically controlled state (extrapolated out to global levels) propaganda campaign/infrastructure of not just the Israeli government but many parts the jewish diaspora itself. 

Think AIPAC in the USA, the MSM in the entire West, the Bretton Woods international banking system (as well as the multinational private banks) , Hollywood, many structural parts of worldwide universities, most neocon and neoliberal think tanks, the MIC within most of the US/UK/NATO superstructure, etc. etc. etc.

These move in hyper-complicated interlocking (both direct and indirect) mechanisms at a multiplicity of levels to promote and control  and ensure that the narratives and geo-political, geo-cultural, geo-economic, geo-military outcomes always are steered to favour and empower that particular small, tribalist, racist, supremacist group.

Endless wars, endless debt (at all levels from personal up to commercial, from municipal, up to state/provincial levels, from national up to supranational) endless 'strategies of tensions' at all levels, from socio-cultural, socio-economic, up to military at massive trans continental levels. Also the use of systemic banking control to weaken all resistance and put the boot-heels to the so-called middle-class of the West and other parts of the world (think austerity regimes and IMF/World Bank crisis capitalism and state economic dis-empowerment.) who are the natural bulwarks against the entire systemic control.

A perfect example is the Arc of Crisis. From the Western part of Africa, up through the Maghreb, over into the Levant, then the Middle East, and onward into Afghanistan, etc, right up to the door of China and southern Russia. Light it up with decades of war, which in turn causes massive inflows of refugees spilling into the West, thus destabilising their populations.

When the Bush/Blair regimes leave power after spinning up Iraq and Afghanistan, you bring in Obama (war slag Clinton included) and other neoliberal pro-empiric war Euro leaders who then crush Libya, and try to crush Syria, etc, with the endgame in that arena being the destruction of Iran. This whole accordion (a bit of the old in/out in/out) action template continued on with Trump and now Biden. All are or were parts of the dog being wagged by the tail.

In terms of the socio-political, the Likud and other RW Israeli (and indeed elements with the diaspora itself) parties openly now work with radical far right parties, up to and including neo-nazis and christofascists, in Europe, the US, and other parts of the 'West', all under the common public rubric of being 'anti-Islamic' (the old 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' shite). This all also ensures vast socio-political and socio-cultural instabilities that can be further manipulated for economic and political gain and the furtherance of neo-feudalism and debt slavery at most all levels.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Vesper

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

The IDF was formed from three different proscribed terrorist groups that terrorised the British, Palestinians, and anyone that stood in their way. The three terrorist groups were Irgun, Haganah and Lehi. They committed so many atrocities before 1948. Those Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi terrorists went on to be Prime Ministers and senior Israeli government officials.

Then when the US realised its strategic importance in the Middle East, a client state was born - a veneer of democracy, masking an overblown entitlement, along with a homicidal view of Arabs. Toxic combination. However, very lucrative for the military industrial complex, its shareholders, and keeping the Middle East on fire

[cosmicway 1,333]

48 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Agreed. UN, which is a fucking joke, is only mentioned here when it's convenient.

I don't particularly care about the claim regarding land; throughout history land has been conquered by various empires and military forces. Russia is doing that this very moment! Every land is "declared" someone's at some point in time...

The goal for most if not all Palestine leaders is the extermination of Israelis and the removal of that country. It's that simple. You cannot negotiate such terms. A two-state solution was not accepted when it was on the table because of that.

The so called Palestinians wanted to just kill all the Jews since ever and they were at least just as fanatical antisemites as the nazis.
Allies with Hitler.
Hitler made some use of them in the war. He was kept from using them more and create an Arab force to fight alongside Rommel by Mussolini. Mussolini had a thing with the Libyans and his general Badoglio was mass murdering them (n.b. Badoglio was the one who surrendered in 1943 and hence acquitted for his war crimes), Because of the Italian objections an unhappy Hitler postponed the creation of the Arab battalion indefinitely and after 1943 his forces were of course defeated in Africa and gone from there.
After the war Nasser was usiing nazi advisers to help him build rockets against Israel - the Soviet advisers appeared in the scene much later, in the sixties.

[Vesper 30,233]

1 minute ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The IDF was formed from three different proscribed terrorist groups that terrorised the British, Palestinians, and anyone that stood in their way. The three terrorist groups were Irgun, Haganah and Lehi. They committed so many atrocities before 1948. Those Irgun, Haganah, and Lehi terrorists went on to be Prime Ministers and senior Israeli government officials.

Then when the US realised its strategic importance in the Middle East, a client state was born - a veneer of democracy, masking an overblown entitlement, along with a homicidal view of Arabs. Toxic combination. However, very lucrative for the military industrial complex, its shareholders, and keeping the Middle East on fire

Israel is a regional cat's paw, as I posted on before.

here

 

and here (almost a year ago)

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

32 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Israel is a regional cat's paw, as I posted on before.

here

 

and here (almost a year ago)

 

The Zionist leaders’ assumption that the Palestinians were bribable, that they could be bought, and that they would accept Jewish domination in exchange for nominal economic benefits They declared as early as 1923 that:

Our peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine, in return for cultural and economic advantages. I repudiate this conception of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are five hundred years behind us, they have neither our endurance nor our determination; but they are just as good psychologists as we are …. We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. They feel at least the same instinctive jealous love of Palestine, as the old Aztecs felt for ancient Mexico, and the Sioux for their rolling Prairies.

[Vesper 30,233]

4 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

The so called Palestinians

You are showing your fidelity to the vile framings of the ultra RW racist tribal-supremacist zionists by adopting the verbal posturing used by so many of the worst of that lot.

You are trying to dehumanise and erase an entire group of people.

Amazingly similar to how the Nazis used framings to do the same thing to the jews back in the day.

 

[Fernando 6,585]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

Hasbara

Hasbara is Hebrew for The Explanation. It is the official multifaceted, holistic, systemically controlled state (extrapolated out to global levels) propaganda campaign/infrastructure of not just the Israeli government but many parts the jewish diaspora itself. 

Think AIPAC in the USA, the MSM in the entire West, the Bretton Woods international banking system (as well as the multinational private banks) , Hollywood, many structural parts of worldwide universities, most neocon and neoliberal think tanks, the MIC within most of the US/UK/NATO superstructure, etc. etc. etc.

These move in hyper-complicated interlocking (both direct and indirect) mechanisms at a multiplicity of levels to promote and control  and ensure that the narratives and geo-political, geo-cultural, geo-economic, geo-military outcomes always are steered to favour and empower that particular small, tribalist, racist, supremacist group.

Endless wars, endless debt (at all levels from personal up to commercial, from municipal, up to state/provincial levels, from national up to supranational) endless 'strategies of tensions' at all levels, from socio-cultural, socio-economic, up to military at massive trans continental levels. Also the use of systemic banking control to weaken all resistance and put the boot-heels to the so-called middle-class of the West and other parts of the world (think austerity regimes and IMF/World Bank crisis capitalism and state economic dis-empowerment.) who are the natural bulwarks against the entire systemic control.

A perfect example is the Arc of Crisis. From the Western part of Africa, up through the Maghreb, over into the Levant, then the Middle East, and onward into Afghanistan, etc, right up to the door of China and southern Russia. Light it up with decades of war, which in turn causes massive inflows of refugees spilling into the West, thus destabilising their populations.

When the Bush/Blair regimes leave power after spinning up Iraq and Afghanistan, you bring in Obama (war slag Clinton included) and other neoliberal pro-empiric war Euro leaders who then crush Libya, and try to crush Syria, etc, with the endgame in that arena being the destruction of Iran. This whole accordion (a bit of the old in/out in/out) action template continued on with Trump and now Biden. All are or were parts of the dog being wagged by the tail.

In terms of the socio-political, the Likud and other RW Israeli (and indeed elements with the diaspora itself) parties openly now work with radical far right parties, up to and including neo-nazis and christofascists, in Europe, the US, and other parts of the 'West', all under the common public rubric of being 'anti-Islamic' (the old 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' shite). This all also ensures vast socio-political and socio-cultural instabilities that can be further manipulated for economic and political gain and the furtherance of neo-feudalism and debt slavery at most all levels.

This sounds plain conspiracy theory. 

Like Israel and USA it at fault for all the issues in the world. 

In Mexico with the cartel, in El Salvador with the murder capital of the world until one men step in (Dislike by the UN it seems because he goes against them), the crazy violence in Ecuador, the ethnic cleansing in Sudan. 
All western democracy fault.....right. 

Conspiracy theory galore. 

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

18 Oct 2024

With a recorded vote of 124 nations in favour, 14 against,  the resolution calls for Israel to comply with international law and withdraw its military forces, immediately cease all new settlement activity, evacuate all settlers from occupied land, and dismantle parts of the separation wall it constructed inside the occupied West Bank.

The General Assembly further demanded that Israel return land and other “immovable property”, as well as all assets seized since the occupation began in 1967, and all cultural property and assets taken from Palestinians and Palestinian institutions.

The resolution also demands Israel allow all Palestinians displaced during the occupation to return to their place of origin and make reparation for the damage caused by its occupation.

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

25 minutes ago, Fernando said:

This sounds plain conspiracy theory. 

Like Israel and USA it at fault for all the issues in the world. 

In Mexico with the cartel, in El Salvador with the murder capital of the world until one men step in (Dislike by the UN it seems because he goes against them), the crazy violence in Ecuador, the ethnic cleansing in Sudan. 
All western democracy fault.....right. 

Conspiracy theory galore. 

Yeah. Check Anne Applebaum on YouTube videos, or articles. There was one in particular where she lists Iran, Russia, and N. Korea as an "Axis of Evil" of sorts, but even then she says that the relationship is of convenience--no grand plan or scheme. 

This one (long)

 

Edited October 23, 2024 by robsblubot

[Vesper 30,233]

30 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Like Israel and USA it at fault for all the issues in the world. 

never said this

not my problem you cannot follow complex system analysis

as for you trying to falsely label it 'conspiracy theory' that just betrays your inabilty to refute what I said

it is a weak fall-back attempt at using ad hominem to try and dismiss positings you do not like

Edited October 23, 2024 by Vesper

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

Long before George Orwell popularised the expression “war is peace” in his 1949 novel, Zionism understood well that its colonial strategy depended on a deliberate and insistent confusion of the binary terms “war” and “peace”, so that each of them hides behind the other as one and the same strategy: “Peace” will always be the public name of a colonial war, and “war”, once it became necessary and public in the form of invasions, would be articulated as the principal means to achieve the sought after “peace”.

Waging war as peace is so central to Zionist and Israeli propaganda that Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which killed 20,000 civilians, was termed “Operation Peace for Galilee”. War and peace, therefore, are the same means whose only and ultimate strategic goal is European Jewish colonisation of Palestine and the subjugation and expulsion of Palestine’s native population.

[Fulham Broadway 17,335]

The Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky, following Herzl’s strategy of securing the patronage of major world powers articulated the Zionist position thus:

Zionist colonisation must  proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach. That is our Arab policy; not what it should be, but what it actually is, whether we admit it or not. What need we, otherwise, of the Balfour Declaration? Or of the Mandate?  Their value to us is that outside Power has undertaken to create in the country such conditions of administration and security that if the native population should desire to hinder our work, they will find it impossible. 

[Vesper 30,233]

8 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky, following Herzl’s strategy of securing the patronage of major world powers articulated the Zionist position thus:

Zionist colonisation must  proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach. That is our Arab policy; not what it should be, but what it actually is, whether we admit it or not. What need we, otherwise, of the Balfour Declaration? Or of the Mandate?  Their value to us is that outside Power has undertaken to create in the country such conditions of administration and security that if the native population should desire to hinder our work, they will find it impossible. 

Ze'ev Jabotinsky declared that settlement of the "land" is the only "law". He declared:

"There is no justice, no law, and no God in heaven, only a single law which decides and supercedes all---- [Jewish] settlement [of the land]." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

According to Ze'ev Jabotinsky, European Jews have little in common with the "Orient". He stated:

"We Jews have nothing in common with what is called the 'Orient,' thank God. To the extent that our uneducated masses have ancient spiritual traditions and laws that call the Orient, they must be weaned away from them, and this is in fact what we are doing in every decent school, what life itself is doing with great success. We are going in Palestine, first for our national convenience, [second] to sweep out thoroughly all traces of the 'Oriental soul.' As for the [Palestinians] Arabs in Palestine, what they do is their business; but if we can do them a favor, it is to help them liberate themselves from the Orient.'" (One Palestine Complete, p. 151)

The concept of a Jewish majority in Palestine was an essential pillar for Zionism to be realized. This point was repeated over and over by all Zionists, not just Jabotinsky. For example, Ze'ev Jabotinsky introduced the Betar's Oath as follows in 1934:

"I devote my life to the rebirth of the Jewish State, with a Jewish majority, on both sides of the Jordan." (Israel: A History, p. 76)

Similarly, he stated

"For a long time, many Jews, including Zionists, were unwilling to understand the simple truth. They maintained that the creation of important positions in Palestine (settlements, cities, schools, etc.) is enough. According to them a national life could be freely developed even though the majority of the population were to be Arab. This is a great mistake. History proves that any national position, however strong and important cannot be safeguarded as long as the nation which built it does not constitute a majority. A minority can safeguard its cultural position only as long as it can control the local majority. Sooner or later, every country in the world is to become the national state of the predominant nation there. Thus if we desire that Eretz Yisrael should become and remain a Jewish State, we must first of all create a Jewish majority." The Ideology of Betar by Ze'ev Jabotinsky

Like all Zionists, Jabotinsky advocated not just a Jewish majority in Palestine but also the use of force to "transfer" them out of their homes, farms, and businesses. Ze'ev Jabotinsky stated in a letter to one of his Revisionist colleagues in the United States dated November 1939:

"There is no choice: the Arabs must make room for the Jews of Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29)

Similarly, he envisioned "brooming" the Palestinian people out of their homes in 'Eretz Yisrael". He stated:

"We Jews, thank God, have nothing to do with the East. . . . The Islamic soul must be broomed out of Eretz-Yisrael. . . . [Muslims are] yelling rabble dressed up in gaudy, savage rags." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 29)

Using the term "brooming" is meant to portray the Palestinian people as "subhuman", a term often suitable to describe flies. It is very sad how often politicians resort to dehumanizing their enemies to make a political point. What is even sadder, that this tactic was advocate by many Zionists who themselves had been victims of similar dehumanization tactics. Click here if you wish to read more racist Zionist quotes.

Just before Jabotinsky died in 1940, he justified "transferring" the Palestinian people out of their homes as follows:

"The world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them." He later added, "Hitler--- as odious as he is to us---has given this idea a good name in the world." (One Palestine Complete, p. 407)