🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Frank Lampard

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Mou only played 4-2-3-1. Conte, when he found that 3-4-3 was Working, played that System til he got sacked. Sometimes, he played 3-5-2.
Lamps has two Systems and neither are perfect for our squad. In a 3 men back, you need to have creative CBs. Rüdiger and Zouma are the worst players at long balls I have seen in a long time. Only Tomori can actually pass the ball.
In a 4 man back, we are way more vulnerable conceding goals because our back 4 is not good enough at defending and our Defensive midfielders sometimes make weird passes to the opponent.

Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 

[killer1257 3,282]

Yes but what I'm trying to say is when we used the back 3 at Wolves and Spurs, it was used to counter them specifically. Lampard said so on both occasions, it looked like he had worked with the players on the system because the players looked comfortable and knew what they were doing in those 2 games. But when it was used against Valencia, Southampton and Arsenal, the formation looked haphazard at best and the players looked clueless, not knowing what to do or how to play it (Lille away was the only occasion it kinda worked). It felt as though Lampard simply went with that formation because it worked in the previous game and just tried to paper over the defensive organization cracks. Regarding the defenders not being good enough at defending, I don't necessarily disagree but good defensive coaching goes a long way to help players defend better, as individual and as a unit. 

I know what you mean, but sometimes tactics are not as easy as we think. Lamps could started a 4-3-3 and Mikel could have done something completely else than he did against us and then maybe Lamps would have then switched to 4 at the back.
Arteta is new in the game, so he is pretty unpredictable.

Me personally, I don't like playing with 3 at the back with players like Rüdiger and Zouma. Under Conte it worked because Luiz was the Master at long Balls and we had also Cesc to play Fabrepasses, so enough creativity. Also, we had Hazard who could score a decisive goal. But I would still go with a 3 at the back against Bayern.

Now you are talking about good Defensive Coaches? Which ones? Mou who can't make average defenders at Spurs better?
Klopp, who needed VVD to stabilize his Defense ?
Guardiola? Just kidding haha
Simeone? Probably the only real deal with Conte when it comes to top class defensive coaching.
Even Conte could only make us better for one season from the defensive point of view. We just lack in quality.


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[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Now you are talking about good Defensive Coaches? Which ones? Mou who can't make average defenders at Spurs better?
Klopp, who needed VVD to stabilize his Defense ?
Guardiola? Just kidding haha
Simeone? Probably the only real deal with Conte when it comes to top class defensive coaching.
Even Conte could only make us better for one season from the defensive point of view. We just lack in quality.

What does this have to do with other manager? Still doesn't change the fact that we have been a collective defensive mess all season, making the same mistakes over and over again. Leicester and Sheffield United this season for example don't exactly have world class players across/in their defence but they have the second best defence in the league. Why? You can only blame the players for so long. They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

[killer1257 3,282]

What does this have to do with other manager? Still doesn't change the fact that we have been a collective defensive mess all season, making the same mistakes over and over again. Leicester and Sheffield United this season for example don't exactly have world class players across/in their defence but they have the second best defence in the league. Why? You can only blame the players for so long. They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

From what I have seen from Leicester, Söyüncü looks pretty good and I would rather have him here than Zouma or Rüdiger.

I rate Conte as the best defensive Coach with Simeone and he could only make us better from the defensive point of view for one season. After that, it was off.
If you think that you don't need World class defenders especially in a Frank System that wants to play Offensive, that is your opinion. Klopp needed 3 years to get a good defense.

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[killer1257 3,282]

 

 

 

They are a problem, but so is the defensive coaching. I remember when Fergie used to have Carlos Queiroz do the defensive coaching side of things at United.

 

Didn't Fergie have Vidic and Ferdinand as their CB. Vidic was a Beast and for me is one of the best CBs of all time in PL. Ferdinand in his prime where he had speed was a monster. I would rather have them in a 4 at the back System than Rüdiger and Zouma

 

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[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

From what I have seen from Leicester, Söyüncü looks pretty good and I would rather have him here than Zouma or Rüdiger.

I rate Conte as the best defensive Coach with Simeone and he could only make us better from the defensive point of view for one season. After that, it was off.
If you think that you don't need World class defenders especially in a Frank System that wants to play Offensive, that is your opinion. Klopp needed 3 years to get a good defense.

Where did I say we don’t need better defenders? All I’m basically saying is the defensive coaching side of things is also important and you don’t have to be a defensive manager to be able to coach. Fergie had his assistant Queiroz to do that at United. Also even if our defence was creaking in Conte’s second season, it never got as messy as we have been in this season.

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Didn't Work Fergie have Vidic and Ferdinand as their CB. Vidic was a Beast and for me is one of the best CBs of all time in PL. Ferdinand in his prime where he had speed was a monster. I would rather have them in a 4 at the back System than Rüdiger and Zouma

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But Vidic was hardly a known quality when he joined United, was he? Anyway 👇🏻
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/former-old-trafford-captain-nemanja-18684384

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1279039-man-uniteds-decline-how-united-have-regressed-tactically-since-queiroz

[Atomiswave 6,117]

If you want proper defensive shape and ability then you need good defenders and a good coach, goes hand in hand. FL or the staff suck ass in that regard so far. You must be good at it if you wanna go Places.

Imo defence should always be nr 1 priority, then you go up the field. A mean defence gives you pts.

At the same time we dont exactly have super defenders, and its not only defenders per say, the whole shape of the team when you defend is crucial as well.

Conte and Simone know their shit, so did the younger JM.

[Tomo 21,751]

52 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Imo defence should always be nr 1 priority, then you go up the field. A mean defence gives you pts.

I don't agree, in this era the most successful teams at this moment in this country set out their philosophy, stuck to it, took the punches and gradually got in more suitable players.

[Tomo 21,751]

52 minutes ago, Mana said:

But...that's it. If Leno didn't give us that big break, we would have gone to lose the game 1-0 or even 2-0. We ran out of ideas.

So this isn't a good victory in my books. Love the result, but it was average/poor if you analyse the game.

If Emerson didn't give Arsenal the big break, if Mount placed his shot an inch to the side. If Tammy got his shot off (from Lamptey's pass) earlier. 

The on another day stuff works both ways.

[Tomo 21,751]

9 minutes ago, Mana said:

Yeah, but he missed.

Exactly, point I'm making is if we want to go down the what may have been road then it's only fair we do it both ways.

[Tomo 21,751]

6 minutes ago, Mana said:

He missed the shot, this is like saying what if Joe Willock got that shot on target in the 2nd half.

Mount didn't get it inch-perfect. 

What are you trying to say? If Leno didn't make that mistake, we would have won anyway? Based on what?

What I'm trying to say is he did make that mistake, we could reverse every single result in our history by saying if this that or this didn't happen.

[killer1257 3,282]

He missed the shot, this is like saying what if Joe Willock got that shot on target in the 2nd half.
Mount didn't get it inch-perfect. 
What are you trying to say? If Leno didn't make that mistake, we would have won anyway? Based on what?

Actually, we should have gotten a Penalty and the Arsenal Player a Red Card and we would have won regardless without Leno Making a mistake.

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[killer1257 3,282]

And Jorginho should have been sent off. And without him, we will lose control of the game again. (But he didn't get sent off)
You say we should have gotten a pen. But we didn't. There wasn't even a long VAR check, so I'm assuming you're being biased here. Guendouzi could have been sent off you said. But he wasn't.

I highly doubt that this Situation would have happened if they were playing with ten men.

For me it was a clear penalty and a yellow card

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[Atomiswave 6,117]

6 hours ago, Tomo said:

I don't agree, in this era the most successful teams at this moment in this country set out their philosophy, stuck to it, took the punches and gradually got in more suitable players.

Cant agree at all on this, defence for me is always nr 1. THen you build on that. What good is an attack if you leak goals all over the shop? Be hard to beat, be hard to score against and you will always have a chance the other way. Thats how I see it. I get your point but I much prefer the former.

[Tomo 21,751]

10 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Cant agree at all on this, defence for me is always nr 1. THen you build on that. What good is an attack if you leak goals all over the shop? Be hard to beat, be hard to score against and you will always have a chance the other way. Thats how I see it. I get your point but I much prefer the former.

Because take Klopp as example, he wasn't nesseserily looking to win straight away, he was looking to build a dominant set up which he unfortunately he has done.

He ignored repeated calls to "sort his defense out" and kept going until his philosophy was perfected, I hope we go down that route, after all Mourinho decided to scrap the process, prioritize the defense and go for instant results and because of that we lost who are now arguably the two best PL players.

I'm happy Frank's sticking to his guns and not panicking with quick fixes, because the potential reward of this youth movement is incredible.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

10 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Because take Klopp as example, he wasn't nesseserily looking to win straight away, he was looking to build a dominant set up which he unfortunately he has done.

He ignored repeated calls to "sort his defense out" and kept going until his philosophy was perfected, I hope we go down that route, after all Mourinho decided to scrap the process, prioritize the defense and go for instant results and because of that we lost who are now arguably the two best PL players.

I'm happy Frank's sticking to his guns and not panicking with quick fixes, because the potential reward of this youth movement is incredible.

Just because klopp did it does not mean we or others might. Many things have to fall in place. And I bet if he had the Cash he would have fixed the issues much sooner. The pep and klopp way is not bulletproof, some may copy it, does not mean they will be as good. Im not talking about short fixes here, why cant you have a strong defence while being progressive? You can play attacking footy, you can play press footy and all that while being strong in defence.

[Superblue 6,372]

59 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

Just because klopp did it does not mean we or others might. Many things have to fall in place. And I bet if he had the Cash he would have fixed the issues much sooner. The pep and klopp way is not bulletproof, some may copy it, does not mean they will be as good. Im not talking about short fixes here, why cant you have a strong defence while being progressive? You can play attacking footy, you can play press footy and all that while being strong in defence.

There has to be a balance. You are right, there's no point having the world's best attack with the world's best defence.

But what @Tomo is saying is that the likes of Pep and Klopp refused to buckle to their ideas and philosophy despite not having the personnel in place to maximise it at first. This is where somebody like Mourinho comes into his element as he'll adapt to his players to protect areas of the team that could be exposed. It's great as a short term fix and has won him countless trophies, but it's not a long term model and is why he struggles beyond a couple of seasons anywhere.

Pep and Klopp have ensured that their philosophy is being worked on even when some of the players weren't the correct fit. When they've had the chance to bring players in to suit their style they've mostly hit a home run and have both had huge success since.

I like what Lampard has been trying to do with the team. The early part of the season showed how impressive we looked offensively. For it to fully work however you need width, similar to Klopp's style. Teams have cottoned on that restricting space centrally forces us out wide where our full backs have no offensive threat. The quicker Reece James can be integrated into the team as first choice and show on his early promise, and we buy a left back in a similar mould, we'll be a huge threat because teams will be unable to simply force us wide as we'll have threats from all areas of the pitch when attacking.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

16 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

There has to be a balance. You are right, there's no point having the world's best attack with the world's best defence.

But what @Tomo is saying is that the likes of Pep and Klopp refused to buckle to their ideas and philosophy despite not having the personnel in place to maximise it at first. This is where somebody like Mourinho comes into his element as he'll adapt to his players to protect areas of the team that could be exposed. It's great as a short term fix and has won him countless trophies, but it's not a long term model and is why he struggles beyond a couple of seasons anywhere.

Pep and Klopp have ensured that their philosophy is being worked on even when some of the players weren't the correct fit. When they've had the chance to bring players in to suit their style they've mostly hit a home run and have both had huge success since.

I like what Lampard has been trying to do with the team. The early part of the season showed how impressive we looked offensively. For it to fully work however you need width, similar to Klopp's style. Teams have cottoned on that restricting space centrally forces us out wide where our full backs have no offensive threat. The quicker Reece James can be integrated into the team as first choice and show on his early promise, and we buy a left back in a similar mould, we'll be a huge threat because teams will be unable to simply force us wide as we'll have threats from all areas of the pitch when attacking.

I like our style too mate, it suits us so good when up and running, pacy and direct. Im not saying we should fix the defence to then playing it safe etc. We can game attacking direct footy with high energy and atthe same time have a rock hard defence, its def doable. Your right regarding Width, but its a puzzle now, we have to add by being astute and smart but show ambition too here and there.

[Vesper 30,213]