Messi: not just great, but the best?

[Spike 12,049]

I wasn't talking about the hormones, I was talking about allegations of him/Barcelona still doping. They could get away with it through blood transfusions, which the biopassport cannot pick up. Doping in football and cycling is much more geared towards improving recovery rather than improving physical ability. So if Barcelona were doping they could spend a lot more training time on technique as they wouldn't have to worry about getting players fit for the next game.

I hope it isn't true. Serie A never recovered from Calciopoli and this would essentially make La Liga a monopoly for the next decade. The day when Valencia regains La Liga is when everything will be alright with the world.

[capriccioso 2,545]

I hope it isn't true. Serie A never recovered from Calciopoli and this would essentially make La Liga a monopoly for the next decade. The day when Valencia regains La Liga is when everything will be alright with the world.

Don't worry about it. I'm so cynical these days that I work off the assumption that 9/10 are doping. I'm sure PL players, and even clubs, indulge in it.

I can 100% guarantee it's happening in Spain though. Operation Puerto busted a Spanish doctor as well as cycling stars (who were instantly exposed- kudos to the UCI on that), tennis stars and footballers that had been involved in a program of doping, all controlled by Dr. Fuentes.

On 5 July 2006, Fuentes was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players. On 27 July 2006, IAAF was assured by Spanish prosecutors that no track and field athletes were involved. On 23 September 2006, former cyclist Jesús Manzano told reporters from France 3 that he had seen "well-known footballers" from La Liga visit the offices of Dr Fuentes.

In May 2007 Sepp Blatter, president of FIFA, at a World Anti-Doping Agency meeting in Montreal, was reportedly interested in the contents "of the Puerto file". Le Monde had reported in December 2006 that they had possession of documents of Fuentes detailing "seasonal preparation plans" for Spanish football clubs FC Barcelona and Real Madrid. These plans did not specifically name any players.

[bababoom 4,478]

He's got it all, best player in the world, no debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6mXp99kDE8&list=FLovgJg0S6DoJ_K3XnY5i9zw&index=1&feature=plpp_video

[blueghost 0]

F*ck Him!!

[capriccioso 2,545]

He's got it all, best player in the world, no debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6mXp99kDE8&list=FLovgJg0S6DoJ_K3XnY5i9zw&index=1&feature=plpp_video

There's no doubting that. It's the best of all time that I disagree with.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Let's re examine his HGH treatment:

He got it at Barcelona at age 12-13, when it was already apparent he had massive potential technically. He was already at the club when they gave it to him. He was a sportsman at that point, it should be illegal. It would be in other sports. It's not like they gave him HGH before he showed the potential to be the player of his generation.

It's no different to what US Postal did with Lance Armstrong. Actually I take that back, its a world apart. Lance showed no potential whatsoever to be anything other than an average cyclist. Messi on the other hand had abnormal levels of technical ability at 13, it was clear that with careful coaching and a big increase in size he could go on to be a very good player. Though he has been unprecedentedly good.

[Spike 12,049]

Let's re examine his HGH treatment:

He got it at Barcelona at age 12-13, when it was already apparent he had massive potential technically. He was already at the club when they gave it to him. He was a sportsman at that point, it should be illegal. It would be in other sports. It's not like they gave him HGH before he showed the potential to be the player of his generation.

It's no different to what US Postal did with Lance Armstrong. Actually I take that back, its a world apart. Lance showed no potential whatsoever to be anything other than an average cyclist. Messi on the other hand had abnormal levels of technical ability at 13, it was clear that with careful coaching and a big increase in size he could go on to be a very good player. Though he has been unprecedentedly good.

There was no gaurantee that he was going to make it, just because he showed potential doesn't mean a thing. He was a child a that time and from a poor family that couldn't afford treatment, the fact that you say he can't do what he loves because of illness sickens me. I've said it once I'll say it again a 12 year old taking Growth hormones is different to an adult taking them. If he were to take them now, I would be against it, but as a sick 12 year old? I'd say that is fair.

[capriccioso 2,545]

There was no gaurantee that he was going to make it, just because he showed potential doesn't mean a fucking thing. He was a child a that time and from a poor family that couldn't afford treatment, the fact that you say he can't do what he loves because of illness sickens me. I've said it once I'll say it again a 12 year old taking Growth hormones is different to an adult taking them. If he were to take them now, I would be against it, but as a sick 12 year old? I'd say that is fair.

Do you think they would have offered to pay for the treatment if Messi had been some street kid with no talent whatsoever?

[Spike 12,049]

Do you think they would have offered to pay for the treatment if Messi had been some street kid with no talent whatsoever?

Stop taking things to extremes, I never once said or implied that Messi was 'just some street kid with no talent'. Just because one is talented as a child doesn't mean necessarily translate to being a talented adult.

[1chelsea 864]

There was no gaurantee that he was going to make it, just because he showed potential doesn't mean a fucking thing. He was a child a that time and from a poor family that couldn't afford treatment, the fact that you say he can't do what he loves because of illness sickens me. I've said it once I'll say it again a 12 year old taking Growth hormones is different to an adult taking them. If he were to take them now, I would be against it, but as a sick 12 year old? I'd say that is fair.

love your reasonableness.

[Spike 12,049]

love your reasonableness.

Cap knows to not take me too seriously.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Cap knows to not take me too seriously.

On the contrary, I take everything you say quite seriously.

I can't tell when you're serious or not.

[Spike 12,049]

On the contrary, I take everything you say quite seriously.

I can't tell when you're serious or not.

Which is a stark contrast to how people treat me in the physical world.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Which is a stark contrast to how people treat me in the physical world.

No one takes you seriously?

No one takes me seriously, either.

[Spike 12,049]

No one takes you seriously?

No one takes me seriously, either.

Mainly because the majority of things I say shouldn't be taken seriously. I have different reputations among different groups, some think I'm never to be taken seriously others take me seriously all the time.

[Ollie 4,400]

Cap you're being a bit harsh. Let's thank whoever it was who decided to let Messi have the career he's had. This must've happened to thousands of other people but because none are as good as Messi, this is being dramatically inflated. The right thing HAS been done regarding the Messi case and i'm privileged that i've seen him play. Imagine never seeing this guy do what he's done... woulda been a travesty.

This case should be a catalyst to help everyone in difficulty, no matter the level of quality of the player.

[capriccioso 2,545]

Cap you're being a bit harsh. Let's thank whoever it was who decided to let Messi have the career he's had. This must've happened to thousands of other people but because none are as good as Messi, this is being dramatically inflated. The right thing HAS been done regarding the Messi case and i'm privileged that i've seen him play. Imagine never seeing this guy do what he's done... woulda been a travesty.

This case should be a catalyst to help everyone in difficulty, no matter the level of quality of the player.

Perhaps I am. I blame Floyd Landis for turning me into a cynic. I remember as a 12 year old being amazed by his exploits, a week later he got exposed. It shattered my trust in athletes, and these days I tend to go off the assumption that anyone good is on something and wait for them to prove that they're not. In my opinion, the right of presumed innocence has sailed in professional sports; and the burden of proof rests on the defence, not the prosecution; especially when you get cases like Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong who 'never tested positive' (well, actually, the courts revealed a couple of days ago that Lance had tested positive in 1999 but it had been hushed up).

It's happened too often now. We need a massive fall out for it to be stamped out of sport altogether, or we'll have farces like the 100 metres men's final in the 1988 Seoul Games (where every single competitor tested positive) as the norm.

[Ollie 4,400]

But Messi's not quite the same as them. He needed help to show of his potential. You can take drugs for stamina, strength, fitness etc but drugs can't help you with how amazing you are with a football at your feet. His ability is being controlled by himself, he's doing what he wants to do. He's still a very small guy. Cyclists, runners etc take drugs that really do have an effect on how they perform. Nothing in this universe can make you play football like Lionel Messi. If there was something, i'm on it and maybe Kalou can try some too.