Winning the Premier League = being the best out of a very average bunch of teams?

[Styles 9,790]

Is winning the Premier League the achievement we think it is?

[edetarod 2,155]

winning the league against city, arsenal... ? no

winning it against the FA ? yes

[kellzfresh 7,229]

We too are not as good as everyone thinks. Once you have players in your first eleven that can't pass the ball well or control the ball with a perfect first touch, you are not on barca, Madrid, and bayern level. If we aspire to reach that level, we won't accept the level of our first team quality now.

This season we should just concentrate on the league and carling cup, next season get pogba and reus so that we won't have people who can't give 5 yard passes consistently in our line-up.

[zolayes 14,489]

winning the league against city, arsenal... ? no

winning it against the FA ? yes

POT post of the Thread :blue scalf:

[Styles 9,790]

We too are not as good as everyone thinks. Once you have players in your first eleven that can't pass the ball well or control the ball with a perfect first touch, you are not on barca, Madrid, and bayern level. If we aspire to reach that level, we won't accept the level of our first team quality now.

This season we should just concentrate on the league and carling cup, next season get pogba and reus so that we won't have people who can't give 5 yard passes consistently in our line-up.

Even Atletico, who are the most defensive/counter-attacking of the top European teams, put on a clinic at Stamford Bridge last season.

[DYC. 7,542]

Winning the league would be a great achievement. I just get the chills when I read things like 'every game is a big game in the PL' and 'the league is filled with top teams' . Or Kompany saying playing at Stoke can be tougher than playing against Barcelona. You hear things like that quite often and it's the result of the brainwashing by the PL marketing machine. Currently in the Dutch league, the traditional big clubs (Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV) spill points against the lesser gods all the time and have a hard time beating them. That was never the case before. It's not because those sides have grown though, the top sides have (seriously) declined. So Chelsea drawing at home to Burnley, or Utd losing away to Swansea, does not mean Burnley and Swansea are quality sides

And the achievements of other teams in different leagues are treated like it's easy, simply because they're more dominant. It's their quality that makes the opponents look a lot weaker than they truly are. Was the PL weak when Chels dominated in 04-06? Of course not, it's the mighty PL! The Bundesliga title used to make rounds in Germany, yet no one would tell you that was a sign of the greatness of the league.

Winning the league would be fantastic, something the boys and the manager can be proud of. But you have to combine it with quality showings in the CL to be a truly great side.

[DYC. 7,542]

Even Atletico, who are the most defensive/counter-attacking of the top European teams, put on a clinic at Stamford Bridge last season.

They were great at The Bridge, but today they lost at Leverkussen. Utd made Leverkussen look like amateurs last year (I think). So tbf, every game is different.

[hamad138 190]

I think so yes

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Even Atletico, who are the most defensive/counter-attacking of the top European teams, put on a clinic at Stamford Bridge last season.

Their matches are boring when they are supposed to hold the ball against lesser teams. Against bigger teams their style is good.

[Barbara 15,149]

I think this is quite the overreaction, a simpleton way of thinking and even slightly alienated idea.

Championships are different in their own way. Teams approach them in different ways and some teams know how to play certain knock out competitions.

A league is competition that goes through 30+ rounds throughout a whole season - nine months of football nearly week in week out. Nothing beats that for me, imo national leagues >>> UCL. I want my team to win the league more than I want them to win Europe. We already have an UCL under our belt, it's no obsession anymore, so while it's a great achievement, it'll always give me more pleasure to know my team was better than its rivals - Arsenal, Spurs, Manchester teams and Liverpool - then beating some small and big names in Europe.

Knock-out competitions are way more unpredictable than long run competitions. A team could have a bad day, could pile up injuries, could have one individual mistake decide a whole competition and it says NOTHING about said team being worse than the other.

So this whole trendy new topic around here diminishing English teams is overreaction imo. As if Germany had 2-3 top teams. Spain has it now, but Atletico was a non-factor for many years, and RM were 7 years without going through the round of 16. In this meanwhile England had Liverpool, United and Chelsea winning titles and making finals and semifinals in other occasions.

Our smooth transition from a team with limited resources and chances to a big deal makes people think that it's easy to achieve. PSG, City, Anzhi are the norm, we're the exception that proves the rule. Money doesn't buy everything, it's not enough in sports although of course, it improves many, many things and gives a team many, many more chances. Now just because we were very smart, lucky and well managed (board and managers) in those 10 years and rose many levels, it doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do. And also people got spoiled and they want us to become the next Barça or Bayern in a handful years. Barça had it coming for too many years and Bayern worked to make it where they are for 8 years. And those were teams that were already in a very high level. Now we came basically from scratch, but people already want us to be the best thing in football since Pele... I teach five year-olds and it never ceases to impress me some of them can't even fathom what the word 'wait' means. It's like a foreign concept to them, I ask them to wait and they look back at me puzzled. It seems they aren't the only generation who doesn't know the first thing about waiting.

I'm not advocating English teams are ahead of everyone else, but dismissing and diminishing the English Premier League like some of you have been doing it's beyond pathetic imo and honestly, it sounds even stupid. I agree with someone that made a post the other day saying that English teams didn't get worse, but didn't adapt to modern football as quickly as others have. And guess what, the same way tiki-taka was the hit a few years ago, then total football, the next one is coming soon and no one knows what that will be or when it'll happen. Things in this era change way too much - maybe that's why people have such a hard time learning how to wait - and someone can come with an old-new idea tomorrow and we'll have a new winning football style replacing the current ones. Barcelona are reinventing themselves, Atletico showed how physicality can still be a winning formula, Dortmund showed total football, Bayern attacking football, RM counter-attacking football.

The fact that United is going through a deep transition after losing Fergie, that City is and has always been a hot mess taking advantage of other teams messing up, that Arsenal can't find a way to be competitive because of its outdated, stubborn manager and Liverpool lost themselves in their adoration to their own history should be taken into account. Mourinho may not be as sharp as we wanted him to be, but he's managing the best he can. We've been outplaying every other team out there in terms of business and sooner or later we'll start collecting the dividends in the trophy room as well. We're changing our profile, but the process has been slowed down because Mourinho, the club and the players have been feeling the pressure. It doesn't mean English teams are a fraud or that EPL is weak. This is a wild idea that some insist on trying to make popular around here these days. Spain 4 years ago had only Barça, Bayern have had more ups and downs than a Disney roaller-coaster and who was taking advantage of those things in those years? English clubs. Trying to see football in such a black and white way always misleads people and make they have the oddest notions. We're far away from becoming Italy 2.0 - but guess what? England, Spain, Germany and even Italy themselves have all been there and done that before. But as I said, in this postmodern world change happens way too fast so we're just witnessing things with the forward button pressed. All those big leagues have been through 'crisis' moments. Who knows? Maybe Juventus pull many shockers and win UCL. Then people will say what?

EPL may not be the very best league in the world, but it's a top 3 to say the least. Also that's a subjective matter. Some prefer a close and unpredictable league, others prefer a polarized league with a team that is probably the best in the world playing there, others prefer more clubs getting more money to have more stars in the country. So in such a subjective matter, dismissing or diminishing the league as if it was the MSL (which is a new league and also progressing quite quickly if you ask me) sounds rubbish.

[DYC. 7,542]

I think this is quite the overreaction, a simpleton way of thinking and even slightly alienated idea.

Championships are different in their own way. Teams approach them in different ways and some teams know how to play certain knock out competitions.

A league is competition that goes through 30+ rounds throughout a whole season - nine months of football nearly week in week out. Nothing beats that for me, imo national leagues >>> UCL. I want my team to win the league more than I want them to win Europe. We already have an UCL under our belt, it's no obsession anymore, so while it's a great achievement, it'll always give me more pleasure to know my team was better than its rivals - Arsenal, Spurs, Manchester teams and Liverpool - then beating some small and big names in Europe.

Knock-out competitions are way more unpredictable than long run competitions. A team could have a bad day, could pile up injuries, could have one individual mistake decide a whole competition and it says NOTHING about said team being worse than the other.

So this whole trendy new topic around here diminishing English teams is overreaction imo. As if Germany had 2-3 top teams. Spain has it now, but Atletico was a non-factor for many years, and RM were 7 years without going through the round of 16. In this meanwhile England had Liverpool, United and Chelsea winning titles and making finals and semifinals in other occasions.

Our smooth transition from a team with limited resources and chances to a big deal makes people think that it's easy to achieve. PSG, City, Anzhi are the norm, we're the exception that proves the rule. Money doesn't buy everything, it's not enough in sports although of course, it improves many, many things and gives a team many, many more chances. Now just because we were very smart, lucky and well managed (board and managers) in those 10 years and rose many levels, it doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do. And also people got spoiled and they want us to become the next Barça or Bayern in a handful years. Barça had it coming for too many years and Bayern worked to make it where they are for 8 years. And those were teams that were already in a very high level. Now we came basically from scratch, but people already want us to be the best thing in football since Pele... I teach five year-olds and it never ceases to impress me some of them can't even fathom what the word 'wait' means. It's like a foreign concept to them, I ask them to wait and they look back at me puzzled. It seems they aren't the only generation who doesn't know the first thing about waiting.

I'm not advocating English teams are ahead of everyone else, but dismissing and diminishing the English Premier League like some of you have been doing it's beyond pathetic imo and honestly, it sounds even stupid. I agree with someone that made a post the other day saying that English teams didn't get worse, but didn't adapt to modern football as quickly as others have. And guess what, the same way tiki-taka was the hit a few years ago, then total football, the next one is coming soon and no one knows what that will be or when it'll happen. Things in this era change way too much - maybe that's why people have such a hard time learning how to wait - and someone can come with an old-new idea tomorrow and we'll have a new winning football style replacing the current ones. Barcelona are reinventing themselves, Atletico showed how physicality can still be a winning formula, Dortmund showed total football, Bayer attacking football, RM counter-attacking football.

The fact that United is going through a deep transition after losing Fergie, that City is and has always been a hot mess taking advantage of other teams messing up, that Arsenal can't find a way to be competitive because of its outdated, stubborn manager and Liverpool lost themselves in their adoration to their own history should be taken into account. Mourinho may not be as sharp as we wanted him to be, but he's managing the best he can. We've been outplaying every other team out there in terms of business and sooner or later we'll start collecting the dividends in the trophy room as well. We're changing our profile, but the process has been slowed down because Mourinho, the club and the players have been feeling the pressure. It doesn't mean English teams are a fraud or that EPL is weak. This is a wild idea that some insist on trying to make popular around here these days. Spain 4 years ago had only Barça, Bayer have had more ups and downs than a Disney roallercoaster and who was taking advantage of those things in those years? English clubs. Trying to see football in such a black and white way always misleads people and make they have the oddest notions. We're far away from becoming Italy 2.0 - but guess what? England, Spain, Germany and even Italy themselves have all been there and done that before. But as I said, in this postmodern world change happens way too fasten so we're just witnessing things with the forward button pressed.

EPL may not be the very best league in the world, but it's a top 3 to say the least. Also that's a subject matter. Some prefer a close and unpredictable league, others prefer a polarized league with a team that is probably the best in the world playing there, others prefer more clubs getting more money to have more stars in the country. So in such a subjective matter, dismissing or diminishing the league as if it was the MSL (which is a new league and also progressing quite quickly if you ask me) sounds rubbish.

I only took a quick look at your post so I'm only reacting to the part about the quality of the PL. I don't think anyone is saying the PL is weak or not a top league. That would be ridiculous. It's just that a lot of people would have you believe the PL is a league above others, and that's something I've never agreed with. There was a time when English teams did extremely well in Europe, producing a lot of semi-finalists and finalists between 2004-2009, but it's 2015. It's about time the English sides (though tbh, I only care about Chelsea) start performing again. Take that next step and adjust to the 'new' demands.

If not, why not do as the Crystal Palace fans said and share the wealth.

[Bosnian Blue 2,471]

You have to realise that the league consists of 20 teams, not of 4 or 6/7 (counting those in the Europa League).

'Lesser' sides in the Premiership are indeed quality sides who play very good and are not afraid of the big teams, which is often not the case in Spain or Germany. These teams have indeed grown and will continue to grow with the investment being made. To make it simple, I don't think Bayern could put 7 or 8 past Burnley that easily, especially away.

The truth is that the top clubs are in a bit of a crisis, some of them in transition, some are progressing slowly..

[Barbara 15,149]

I only took a quick look at your post so I'm only reacting to the part about the quality of the PL. I don't think anyone is saying the PL is weak or not a top league. That would be ridiculous. It's just that a lot of people would have you believe the PL is a league above others, and that's something I've never agreed with. There was a time when English teams did extremely well in Europe, producing a lot of semi-finalists and finalists between 2004-2009, but it's 2015. It's about time the English sides (though tbh, I only care about Chelsea) start performing again. Take that next step and adjust to the 'new' demands.

If not, why not do as the Crystal Palace fans said and share the wealth.

my point is - why does how a team performs on UCL decide the quality of their national league? Atletico was irrelevant in Europe for decades, RM for nearly a decade - without passing R16 for 7 years in a row - with only Barça representing Spain (in a time they were way ahead the rest of all teams in the world - still we beat them). Then Germany have only had Bayern with their ups and downs - domestically and continentally - for also too many years. English teams took advantage of that with United, Chelsea and Liverpool reaching finals, SF and titles in the past decade (Liverpool early in the decade). What does it say? So now just because Spain has three teams doing well in the league - although Barça did leave the competition on QF last season and Germany had a final a couple of years ago, as well as Spain last year so now those leagues are stronger than ours? That's a weak argument and 'fact'. Bayern, RM, Barça and Atletico may be better than us, it says nothing about any league in any of those countries. Some prefer a polarized league like Bundesliga where they watch a team smash the rest, a league with a lot of money bringing a lot of stars such as English or maybe even a league that is closer in the top like the Spanish is now - despite the very recent Barça domination. Others prefer a league where small teams make big teams life tough. This is down to preference, not only about what entertains you more but as well what YOU think or I think is best. There's absolutely no absolute true because this is a very subjective matter.

People ignore the deep (and probably long) transition united just started after Fergie left, City is a mess with a lot of money, but heavily badly managed (both board and managers), Arsenal is stuck with an outdated and stubborn manager and Liverpool is appreciating their history, hoping the media will win them some title as they decayed quality wise. So yeah, some English top teams are going through tough moments, it happens from time to time to any big league.

[DYC. 7,542]

my point is - why does how a team performs on UCL decide the quality of their national league? Atletico was irrelevant in Europe for decades, RM for nearly a decade - without passing R16 for 7 years in a row - with only Barça representing Spain (in a time they were way ahead the rest of all teams in the world - still we beat them). Then Germany have only had Bayern with their ups and downs - domestically and continentally - for also too many years. English teams took advantage of that with United, Chelsea and Liverpool reaching finals, SF and titles in the past decade (Liverpool early in the decade). What does it say? So now just because Spain has three teams doing well in the league - although Barça did leave the competition on QF last season and Germany had a final a couple of years ago, as well as Spain last year so now those leagues are stronger than ours? That's a weak argument and 'fact'. Bayern, RM, Barça and Atletico may be better than us, it says nothing about any league in any of those countries. Some prefer a polarized league like Bundesliga where they watch a team smash the rest, a league with a lot of money bringing a lot of stars such as English or maybe even a league that is closer in the top like the Spanish is now - despite the very recent Barça domination. Others prefer a league where small teams make big teams life tough. This is down to preference, not only about what entertains you more but as well what YOU think or I think is best. There's absolutely no absolute true because this is a very subjective matter.

People ignore the deep (and probably long) transition united just started after Fergie left, City is a mess with a lot of money, but heavily badly managed (both board and managers), Arsenal is stuck with an outdated and stubborn manager and Liverpool is appreciating their history, hoping the media will win them some title as they decayed quality wise. So yeah, some English top teams are going through tough moments, it happens from time to time to any big league.

Because the whole PL is the best in the world rage was the result of English dominance in Europe, after their long inferiority during the 90s and early 00s. It works both ways.

Personally I couldn't care less which league is considered the best, but give the other teams/leagues their credit. For example, you refer to the Bundesliga as a league where you watch a team smash the rest. That's so lazy. Take a look at the last 10 teams to win the Bundesliga.

Watch a match between midtable sides in the Bundesliga, PL or La Liga, it's practically the same thing in terms of level. The styles are just different. Watch a game that is the equivalent of, let's say Crystal Palace - Hull City, in the Bundesliga or La Liga and it's the same crap. Again, just different styles.

[iseah100 5,612]

I think this is quite the overreaction, a simpleton way of thinking and even slightly alienated idea.

Championships are different in their own way. Teams approach them in different ways and some teams know how to play certain knock out competitions.

A league is competition that goes through 30+ rounds throughout a whole season - nine months of football nearly week in week out. Nothing beats that for me, imo national leagues >>> UCL. I want my team to win the league more than I want them to win Europe. We already have an UCL under our belt, it's no obsession anymore, so while it's a great achievement, it'll always give me more pleasure to know my team was better than its rivals - Arsenal, Spurs, Manchester teams and Liverpool - then beating some small and big names in Europe.

Knock-out competitions are way more unpredictable than long run competitions. A team could have a bad day, could pile up injuries, could have one individual mistake decide a whole competition and it says NOTHING about said team being worse than the other.

So this whole trendy new topic around here diminishing English teams is overreaction imo. As if Germany had 2-3 top teams. Spain has it now, but Atletico was a non-factor for many years, and RM were 7 years without going through the round of 16. In this meanwhile England had Liverpool, United and Chelsea winning titles and making finals and semifinals in other occasions.

Our smooth transition from a team with limited resources and chances to a big deal makes people think that it's easy to achieve. PSG, City, Anzhi are the norm, we're the exception that proves the rule. Money doesn't buy everything, it's not enough in sports although of course, it improves many, many things and gives a team many, many more chances. Now just because we were very smart, lucky and well managed (board and managers) in those 10 years and rose many levels, it doesn't mean it's an easy thing to do. And also people got spoiled and they want us to become the next Barça or Bayern in a handful years. Barça had it coming for too many years and Bayern worked to make it where they are for 8 years. And those were teams that were already in a very high level. Now we came basically from scratch, but people already want us to be the best thing in football since Pele... I teach five year-olds and it never ceases to impress me some of them can't even fathom what the word 'wait' means. It's like a foreign concept to them, I ask them to wait and they look back at me puzzled. It seems they aren't the only generation who doesn't know the first thing about waiting.

I'm not advocating English teams are ahead of everyone else, but dismissing and diminishing the English Premier League like some of you have been doing it's beyond pathetic imo and honestly, it sounds even stupid. I agree with someone that made a post the other day saying that English teams didn't get worse, but didn't adapt to modern football as quickly as others have. And guess what, the same way tiki-taka was the hit a few years ago, then total football, the next one is coming soon and no one knows what that will be or when it'll happen. Things in this era change way too much - maybe that's why people have such a hard time learning how to wait - and someone can come with an old-new idea tomorrow and we'll have a new winning football style replacing the current ones. Barcelona are reinventing themselves, Atletico showed how physicality can still be a winning formula, Dortmund showed total football, Bayern attacking football, RM counter-attacking football.

The fact that United is going through a deep transition after losing Fergie, that City is and has always been a hot mess taking advantage of other teams messing up, that Arsenal can't find a way to be competitive because of its outdated, stubborn manager and Liverpool lost themselves in their adoration to their own history should be taken into account. Mourinho may not be as sharp as we wanted him to be, but he's managing the best he can. We've been outplaying every other team out there in terms of business and sooner or later we'll start collecting the dividends in the trophy room as well. We're changing our profile, but the process has been slowed down because Mourinho, the club and the players have been feeling the pressure. It doesn't mean English teams are a fraud or that EPL is weak. This is a wild idea that some insist on trying to make popular around here these days. Spain 4 years ago had only Barça, Bayern have had more ups and downs than a Disney roaller-coaster and who was taking advantage of those things in those years? English clubs. Trying to see football in such a black and white way always misleads people and make they have the oddest notions. We're far away from becoming Italy 2.0 - but guess what? England, Spain, Germany and even Italy themselves have all been there and done that before. But as I said, in this postmodern world change happens way too fast so we're just witnessing things with the forward button pressed. All those big leagues have been through 'crisis' moments. Who knows? Maybe Juventus pull many shockers and win UCL. Then people will say what?

EPL may not be the very best league in the world, but it's a top 3 to say the least. Also that's a subjective matter. Some prefer a close and unpredictable league, others prefer a polarized league with a team that is probably the best in the world playing there, others prefer more clubs getting more money to have more stars in the country. So in such a subjective matter, dismissing or diminishing the league as if it was the MSL (which is a new league and also progressing quite quickly if you ask me) sounds rubbish.

Yes yes yes. You are spot on Babs, good post. Yet again.

[iseah100 5,612]

Also, the reason the lower teams here are competitive is cause of the money they get and the fact that they aren't scared of playing the big boys. And Barca loses to lower teams to, Malaga and Real Sociedad spring to mind. Don't get carried away guys.

[Barbara 15,149]

Because the whole PL is the best in the world rage was the result of English dominance in Europe, after their long inferiority during the 90s and early 00s. It works both ways.

Personally I couldn't care less which league is considered the best, but give the other teams/leagues their credit. For example, you refer to the Bundesliga as a league where you watch a team smash the rest. That's so lazy. Take a look at the last 10 teams to win the Bundesliga.

Watch a match between midtable sides in the Bundesliga, PL or La Liga, it's practically the same thing in terms of level. The styles are just different. Watch a game that is the equivalent of, let's say Crystal Palace - Hull City, in the Bundesliga or La Liga and it's the same crap. Again, just different styles.

funny you call me lazy when it's you who hasn't read the short post I wrote to summarize my previous big one. I said Bayern has had more ups and downs - domestically and continentally - than a roller-coaster. If that doesn't cover what you're saying, then I don't know what does. Also, the part you quoted is my assessment about the current status of the league. If you want to convince yourself, me or someone else Bundesliga now isn't a one-trick-pony, be my guest, but I'll tell you what, you won't convince me.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Just because the top teams in the PL are now pretty average doesn't mean the league as a whole is poor, there are 20 teams in the division. The Premier League is still the deepest league in the world in terms of talent top to bottom. It's way more evenly spread out than any other league in the world. The league is probably the deepest its ever been.

Another thing is the average premier league team is very different from the average La Liga or Serie A team for example. In terms of physicality, directness of play, intensity. I can expand on that, but I'm sure you get the point. All these factors favour the lesser teams, who though lacking in quality, can more than compensate for their short-comings by more "robust" and physical means, means which are allowed to happen in English football because of the way the game is reffed. Case in point being Stoke City. A Stoke City simply won't be allowed to exist in any other big league in Europe.

These are all big factors that don't occur to some people. It's what makes the PL the hardest league in the world to compete in and arguably the hardest to win. So of COURSE, it will be amazing if we won it this year! Don't let any rival fan or clueless Chelsea hating pseudo-journalist convince us otherwise.