Politics & Stuff

[Stingray 9,441]

Quite ironically ....

Can you hear the drums Fernando?
Do you still recall the fateful night
we crossed the Rio Grande?
I can see it in your eyes
how proud you were to fight
For freeedom in this land.

:laugh:

[Dion 2,476]

  On 12/08/2014 at 10:34, Fernando said:

Never said it's okay.

Just saying that Palestinian nation doesn't exist.

Only government that exist is Israel.

And the only country that has sovereign claim there is Israel.

And in Israel there's different ethnicity that are not just jews, like the Israeli Palestinian. So it's not like the Palestinian ethnicity is getting extinct.

Well, I think Belgium stopped existing as a nation in 2010-2011 when they didn't have an elected government then. Too bad Israel missed that opportunity to have a righteous claim for more land. Watch out, @Stingray. They might be going there for you if it happens again

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 12/08/2014 at 15:44, Dion said:

Well, I think Belgium stopped existing as a nation in 2010-2011 when they didn't have an elected government then. Too bad Israel missed that opportunity to have a righteous claim for more land. Watch out, @Stingray. They might be going there for you if it happens again

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 14:07, Fulham Broadway said:

Israel needs to be dismantled. It was set up due to ongoing political problems at the time, 90% of israelis are jews from Eastern Europe.

It is now a sattelite US State that murders its neighbours. Time for it to be dismantled and the people go home.

There is some moronic stuff on this thread (mostly the same laughable internet propaganda and selective quoting), but this takes the cake and is really indicative of how nonsense can spread through the internet.. First off, most Israelis are not from Eastern Europe. Over 50% are from North Africa and the Middle East. Second of all, it doesn't matter. Where are most Canadians from? Most Australians? Most Americans? Most Argentinians? Australians? The answer is the same. Europe. Being an immigrant country is not unique in the world, it is standard. Third of all, home? You know why Jews left right? They were massacred and brutalized in Europe and the Middle East for centuries. There are 7 million people for whom Israel is the only home they have. Fourth of all, Israel acts like a bully but since when does acting like a bully or killing people mean a country has to be dismantled? Nothing creates this. Does Turkey need to be dismantled? They have done far worse things than Israel. (Actual genocide for one) How about Sri Lanka? Their assault on rebels killed more civilians in a few months than Israel has killed in its entire existence. Time to get rid of it? How about Syria? Should Syria not exist? Hell, The UK and USA have done far worse things than Israel. Why should it exist? If you want to go through the worst human rights abusers, Israel is not near the top. And a satellite US State? The Economy of Israel is $287B a year. The US gives them $3B a year, 74% of which must be spent on American products. That's about 1% of Israel's economy and with massive restrictions. The Israeli economy is far stronger than any of its neighbours not because of American aid, but because of strong industries and a relatively Western approach to things. Only the US and China have more companies listed in the NASDAQ. This bullshit is like music to the ears of the Israeli far right because they say that there is no point negotiating to try to make some sort of peace because why make peace with people who just want to destroy you?

[Fulham Broadway 17,092]

  On 12/08/2014 at 16:14, TorontoChelsea said:

There is some moronic stuff on this thread (mostly the same laughable internet propaganda and selective quoting), but this takes the cake and is really indicative of how nonsense can spread through the internet.. First off, most Israelis are not from Eastern Europe. Over 50% are from North Africa and the Middle East. Second of all, it doesn't matter. Where are most Canadians from? Most Australians? Most Americans? Most Argentinians? Australians? The answer is the same. Europe. Being an immigrant country is not unique in the world, it is standard. Third of all, home? You know why Jews left right? They were massacred and brutalized in Europe and the Middle East for centuries. There are 7 million people for whom Israel is the only home they have. Fourth of all, Israel acts like a bully but since when does acting like a bully or killing people mean a country has to be dismantled? Nothing creates this. Does Turkey need to be dismantled? They have done far worse things than Israel. (Actual genocide for one) How about Sri Lanka? Their assault on rebels killed more civilians in a few months than Israel has killed in its entire existence. Time to get rid of it? How about Syria? Should Syria not exist? Hell, The UK and USA have done far worse things than Israel. Why should it exist? If you want to go through the worst human rights abusers, Israel is not near the top. And a satellite US State? The Economy of Israel is $287B a year. The US gives them $3B a year, 74% of which must be spent on American products. That's about 1% of Israel's economy and with massive restrictions. The Israeli economy is far stronger than any of its neighbours not because of American aid, but because of strong industries and a relatively Western approach to things. Only the US and China have more companies listed in the NASDAQ. This bullshit is like music to the ears of the Israeli far right because they say that there is no point negotiating to try to make some sort of peace because why make peace with people who just want to destroy you?

My last posts were deliberately naive in the manner of another poster who was being deliberately obtuse in apparently understanding, but funnily enough able to respond with right wing invective when neccesary .

Sorry if you took it to be serious.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 16:25, Fulham Broadway said:

My last posts were deliberately naive in the manner of another poster who was being deliberately obtuse in apparently understanding, but funnily enough able to respond with right wing invective when neccesary .

Sorry if you took it to be serious.

My bad. I haven't really kept up with the thread so didn't even go back a page to see what you may have been referring to. Just came on the page and saw your post.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 12/08/2014 at 16:14, TorontoChelsea said:

Where are most Canadians from? Most Australians? Most Americans? Most Argentinians? Australians? The answer is the same. Europe. Being an immigrant country is not unique in the world, it is standard.

Seriously?! The difference is that almost all those who are currently in the region were brought there in the space of about a decade and on a racist religious basis. They didn't just immigrate there, they were part of an organized political movement. More importantly, those Jewish people who went to the region in 1930s and 40s didn't just move to live there. They literally drove natives from their houses and out of their country and destroyed their villages to replace it with settlements.

And before you say it, this is not like the native Indians in America because that was a thousand years ago and we would all like to believe that we've moved on from those barbaric times.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 16:39, CHOULO19 said:

Seriously?! The difference is that almost all those who are currently in the region were brought there in the space of about a decade and on a racist religious basis. They didn't just immigrate there, they were part of an organized political movement. More importantly, those Jewish people who went to the region in 1930s and 40s didn't just move to live there. They literally drove natives from their houses and out of their country and destroyed their villages to replace it with settlements.

And before you say it, this is not like the native Indians in America because that was a thousand years ago and we would all like to believe that we've moved on from those barbaric times.

The slaughter of Natives in America was still going on less than 150 years ago not thousands and the the repercussions are ongoing. Why is Wounded Knee in 1890 ancient history but Israel in 1935 is modern? How about say, Pakistan? That was ethnic cleansing based on religion as well and it happened the exact same year as Israel was created in much the same way except much much bloodier. How about Russia (USSR) who ethnically cleansed millions around the same time because of ethnicity (Never mind murdering millions of people). How about Turkey who committed genocide AND forced ethnic Greeks out of Turkey? Why does Pakistan have the right to exist? Why does Russia? Why does Cambodia or Turkey or any of the many other countries who have done the same or worse than Israel? It doesn't really matter because it isn't really different. It's just an attempt to make Israel different from all other countries, why you can justify calling for the destruction of Israel but not any other country.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 12/08/2014 at 17:07, TorontoChelsea said:

The slaughter of Natives in America was still going on less than 150 years ago not thousands and the the repercussions are ongoing. Why is Wounded Knee in 1890 ancient history but Israel in 1935 is modern? How about say, Pakistan? That was ethnic cleansing based on religion as well and it happened the exact same year as Israel was created in much the same way except much much bloodier. How about Russia (USSR) who ethnically cleansed millions around the same time because of ethnicity (Never mind murdering millions of people). How about Turkey who committed genocide AND forced ethnic Greeks out of Turkey? Why does Pakistan have the right to exist? Why does Russia? Why does Cambodia or Turkey or any of the many other countries who have done the same or worse than Israel? It doesn't really matter because it isn't really different. It's just an attempt to make Israel different from all other countries, why you can justify calling for the destruction of Israel but not any other country.

To be honest, Choulo never proposed the destruction of Israel. And just because we're talking about Israel it doesn't mean we condone any of the other cases you brought up. But the massacre against the indigenous people has stopped, at least in Brazil it has, whilst the one against Palestinians is still ongoing.

You wanna talk about massacre? Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay killed like 90% of the adult male population of Paraguay in the Paraguayan War (it may not be the exact number but I remember it was something as absurd as that). Two wrongs don't make a right. All of those were wrong and so is what Israel is doing.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 12/08/2014 at 17:07, TorontoChelsea said:

The slaughter of Natives in America was still going on less than 150 years ago not thousands and the the repercussions are ongoing. Why is Wounded Knee in 1890 ancient history but Israel in 1935 is modern? How about say, Pakistan? That was ethnic cleansing based on religion as well and it happened the exact same year as Israel was created in much the same way except much much bloodier. How about Russia (USSR) who ethnically cleansed millions around the same time because of ethnicity (Never mind murdering millions of people). How about Turkey who committed genocide AND forced ethnic Greeks out of Turkey? Why does Pakistan have the right to exist? Why does Russia? Why does Cambodia or Turkey or any of the many other countries who have done the same or worse than Israel? It doesn't really matter because it isn't really different. It's just an attempt to make Israel different from all other countries, why you can justify calling for the destruction of Israel but not any other country.

Because the Palestinian ethnic cleansing is the only one still going on till now in an age where any news is universal and everyone is involved and interested in happenings all over the world. And we're also now in a world that after WW2 decided to move away from such genocides by creating international laws and standards. The global morals and ethics have moved on since WW2.

Add to that the fact that with Israel, you have other ongoing atrocities like all the massacres in the regular wars. And what in history compares to modern day Gaza? Nothing except the Nazi concentration camps. If Turkey were still killing Greeks in a regular basis, I'm sure a lot of people would be calling for repercussions.

On any account, "don't look at us, look at others" and "we're not the worst in history" are not exactly great moral arguments.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 12/08/2014 at 17:07, TorontoChelsea said:

why you can justify calling for the destruction of Israel but not any other country.

Bullshit, none called for this. Sorry mate. That is a straw man you are putting up. We are however debating the ethics of it all and the possibility of a humanitarian crisis (ow yes there are also many others, but that fact does not detract on what is going on in Gaza).

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 17:19, Dion said:

To be honest, Choulo never proposed the destruction of Israel. And just because we're talking about Israel it doesn't mean we condone any of the other cases you brought up. But the massacre against the indigenous people has stopped, at least in Brazil it has, whilst the one against Palestinians is still ongoing.

You wanna talk about massacre? Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay killed like 90% of the adult male population of Paraguay in the Paraguayan War (it may not be the exact number but I remember it was something as absurd as that). Two wrongs don't make a right. All of those were wrong and so is what Israel is doing.

Go back a few pages, I am sure you will find him calling for the end of Israel within that time period. I never said what Israel was doing was right He certainly has before (As do other people on here).

[Dion 2,476]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:11, TorontoChelsea said:

Go back a few pages, I am sure you will find him calling for the end of Israel within that time period. I never said what Israel was doing was right He certainly has before (As do other people on here).

I recall him proposing a state for both Israelis and Palestinians. Strictly speaking, yes that would be the destruction of Israel as we know it today for the existence of something bigger than either Palestine or Israel. But it wouldn't be the destruction of its people.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:11, TorontoChelsea said:

Go back a few pages, I am sure you will find him calling for the end of Israel within that time period. I never said what Israel was doing was right He certainly has before (As do other people on here).

I just reread pages and pages ..... can you back up your statement plz. because i cannot find it.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:20, Stingray said:

I just reread pages and pages ..... can you back up your statement plz. because i cannot find it.

You didn't look very hard. Go back two pages. "There cannot be peace while Israel continues to exist. At least not in its current form".Anyway, this is old news. I've had this discussion with Cholou many times before. not in its current form."

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:11, TorontoChelsea said:

Go back a few pages, I am sure you will find him calling for the end of Israel within that time period. I never said what Israel was doing was right He certainly has before (As do other people on here).

What? I have said on several occasions (including on the very last page) that land is now also home to all those that are now Israeli citizens and that they cannot be thrown out like the Palestinians were in 1948. I have called for the end of Israel as racist apartheid Jewish blood thirsty state to be replaced by a single integrated democtaric seculra country that treats all the people currently living in the region in an equal basis.

[Stingray 9,441]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:24, TorontoChelsea said:

You didn't look very hard. Go back two pages. "There cannot be peace while Israel continues to exist. At least not in its current form".Anyway, this is old news. I've had this discussion with Cholou many times before. not in its current form."

So fucking what?? ..... this is clearly not what you meant with 'people want Israel dismantled'. Anyone talking about both a one state or a two state solution would be 'wanting the end of Israel' in your definition. Comon, be at least a bit serious.

It seems I looked a LOT harder than you on this thread mate.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 12/08/2014 at 18:27, CHOULO19 said:

What? I have said on several occasions (including on the very last page) that land is now also home to all those that are now Israeli citizens and that they cannot be thrown out like the Palestinians were in 1948. I have called for the end of Israel as racist apartheid Jewish blood thirsty state to be replaced by a single integrated democtaric seculra country that treats all the people currently living in the region in an equal basis.

That is definitely better so sorry for what I thought you believed in and I would be all for it if I thought it even had a 1% chance of happening but it can't. Scotland is going to be close on secession vote . Quebec has almost voted to leave Canada more than once. Catalan wants more autonomy but somehow Israelis and Palestinians are going to get along? The racism is incredible. The bad blood is awful. The history is intense. The dehumanization of the other is overwhelming. It's simply not possible. Never mind, that nobody actually wants this solution. Israel wants a single-state solution where the Palestinians have no rights and are relegated to small pieces of land it controls and the Palestinians want a Muslim single state where Jews are either gone or secondary citizens. I haven't seen a poll in a couple of years, but at the time, the % of people who were interested in a secular single state was well under 10% and unlike other movements, this has almost zero chance of growing significantly unless levels of religion decrease significantly (they are increasing).