Rubber bullets

Looks like the team have decided the season is other. Woeful performance.

Not sure about Schurrle upfront Its one thing to be able to make cut in runs from wide areas and drift across and through the lines of defense with no set marker. Another thing entirely to be up front where you will probably have at least 2 CBs watching you constantly.

Then again I remember when we won the double under Carlo some people had a pessimistic outlook on the future, that's football for you.

Yes,but that doesn't mean I'm not still skeptical about how the club is moving forwards and whether we are heading for the right direction. I remember when we won the double under Carlo and at the beginning of the next season when we had thrash West Brom and Wigan 6-0 , there were quite few posters that were incredibly pessimistic of the season and were making a number of posts criticism the squad for its age and complaining about the football we played even after we scored 12 goals in the first two games. People can stil be pessimistic about stuff even when we are on a good form and some people see the future as sunshine and daisies..

I can only form my opinion about you from the way you act on the forum and what you say when arguing with me. Unfortunately resulting to insults about me (which you have done so twice on this thread) does not give way for me having a good opinion of unlike someone such as Mohammed Seif who has been nothing but respectful and kept his language polite and therefore I respect him and his opinions, so forgive me if you accuse me of lying about you.

And did I just not say yesterday that all of this could be redeemed if we did win the Champions league (and judging by the Man Utd game where Munich showed that they can have off days against mid table clubs like Utd (never thought I would say that) shows we still have a fighting chance). i may not be like many others seeing the future as this bright and happy utopia but that does not mean I still opportunities for us for success (although it seems if I say that I get grouped as a glory hunting supporter) Unfortunately because I'm incredibly sceptical of the whole issue of where this club is actually going under Mourinho (of course I admit I'm showing much more pessimism then most the majority of Chelsea fans to say the least) and so far nothing is being shown to me so far that I think is to the contrary I can't do anything but make posts that are on the negative sides (of course you can always look on some of the player's pages like hazard, Schuurle and Ramires where (as shocking as it is) I do post positive ideas that sing their praises). The only other option would be to stop posting but that would be defeating the objective of a public forum where opinions (as long as to what like as like you said are constructive) of all forms should be welcomed.

Of course I can take pride in that I'm not the one who has to use personal insults (which lets face it shows you as a petty man who has some disturbing superiorty complex) to get my views across. Of course with your ego being as it is with you being a self proclamined "true fan" becuase you have the the financial advantages of being able to tend home matches then I can't change the fact that you will always have your head in the clouds even when the man you currently defend to death activily chides the way you support them in the stadium http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/15/chelsea-crystal-palace-premier-league-match-report

The problem is that as seen many times it just becomes a way of trying to push back the issue of trying to give them chances into the squad for as long as possible. Taking the view that I think that the whole issue of expeirence is just a bollocks excuse that isused to try and justify why they can't get a run in the first team, the problem iswhen do we reach a point where they have the required 'experience' to be given a chance in the team. First its they have no experience at all, so they are shipped out to some lower division team, then its they have no top flight experience, so the club tries to ship them out to one, then its'but they don't have any experience playing for us' or no Champions league experience, so their chances are stalled again, then by that time we buy someone like Zouma (who lates faces was getting massive amounts of hype andalready has over 40 appearances in Ligue 1) who becuase we spent a hefty sum of money (both Zouma and Salah cost usover £20 million pounds) get priority andso we are back to square one. In all honesty the same arguments are going back and forth and there is no point repeating them, the phase 'agree to disagree' comes to mind now.

Of course they are in the same position (apart from where they are currently standing in the tables). You say Mourinho is here for the long term for Chelsea, so is Martinez, you say that Jose is trying to build his own style without expectations to win things for the team, so is Martinez. And who will be getting the first team chances in the next season or two. It won't be the likesof Chalobah and Ake (they will probably be sent of on loans) it will by the players we just spent over £20 millions pounds for. Both who have gotten first team experience for their clubs (and in Salah's case Champions league experience), and then soon after that we will probably make more large money transfers for other players who are either older or were molded by their parent clubs. That is what I'm seeing at the moment.

Of course you can look at Everton who are in the exact same position as us, new manager who isimplementing hisown style of football that wasdifferent from the previous manager, yet at the same time has bled the likes of Barkley and Stones in the team, the former who was (just like many of are young prospects) was farmed off to loan (on the ideathat he has no experieance and is not ready) with not much success but as soon as he is given a run out in the first teamwith actual faith from the manager and hasbeen such asuccess that their are major callsfor him to be on the starting 11 England team for the world cup. So Jose, whoisbuilding the teamfor the future and iscreating thislong term identity and did not need to win anything in the near future, could not introduce one young prospect which he claimed he would do throughtout last summer? Surely this would be the best time so they can get the so called experience you desire (which Ithink is just a bollocks excuse to not use them but just farm them off on loan) when thereisno expectationfor the team apart from a top 4 place. The fact that we are still buying ready made talent in thelikes of Salah and Zouma (which is what we have been doing ever since Roman took over) shows to me that nothing has changed.

Of course what I keep bringing up is the fact that when we see the expensive purchases of say someone like Zouma and the probability of buying an expensive striker (which would mean that the likes of Lukaku or Bamford not getting a run of starts) shows that there is no signs at all that we are actually going to do what Jose claimed in the summer and integrate players from the youth and reserve squads, as lets face it why would Jose want to actually try and get someone like Chalobah, Ake or Lukaku to be given a chance when he can just ask for expensive transfers for hyped up players like Zouma who get first team experience from their parent clubs. Like I said last time we only used young players if we payed a hefty price for them and this season and its transfers indicates that we are going to be doing exactly the same, which means that young players from our own academy, no matter how well they do in the u21 matches or while out on loan won't get a chance because Mourinho wants to buy and use ready made players or does that had most of their development done at other clubs before buying them, which is what I have been arguing time and time again.

Mandzukic showing why I hate the false number 9 system

There is a difference between sending out teams mainly comprising of nothing but youth and giving at least 1-2 around out along on a pitch that will still have the desired experience of players such as Terry - at the end of the day there will be inconsistencies, that I'm not denying, but you have to take a risk instead of shelling out millions of pounds for other players because you don't want to mold them yourselves. And once you get the so called foundations what next? Will we not play them because they have not enough first team experience and farm them out on loan again, then after that make more excuses. Go that way and we never integrate with our academy, because of this fear of taking risks. Put it this way, when Barkley was forced out on loan he did absolutely nothing, despite being in a lower league. But when he is given a chance he shines, and it shows with nearly everyone demanding him in the squad for the world cup

What, you need a firm foundation and someone to guide them to just introduce at least one youth player into the team? I don't buy that excuse (which is you trying to create a chicken and egg paradox), is it really just hard to make way for one youth player, you can't just trying to make excuses to try and not play them (whether its because they don't have enough experience or because their is no one to take them under the wing (Seriously? they are football players not Jedi knights) despite the fact that the likes of Terry and Ivanovic (who apparently are leaders) are regulars in the team. That's the reason why they have been rotting away on loan. Since Jose is apparently here for the long term and does not have to win anything this season (and possibly the next 2 seasons after that), there is no reason why he can't introduce them into the squad now and make them part of the "foundation" you claim is needed. You have to take chances with these players instead of spending £12 million on someone like Zouma who already has first team experience and basically means that we won't bother with the likes of Chalobah and Kalas. Just look at Everton and Martinez in his first season who have introduced Barkley and Stones into the squad, who don't have world class players like Hazard now has a really good chance of landing a top four spot, if he can do that in his first season then Jose has no excuse.

Last time he also had a relatively young squad. If I remember correct Lampard an Terry were in their early 20s, as well as Gudjonhson and Duff. Robben and Cech were one of the most exciting young prospects when we got him; and I should also mention that many of them never won a major trophy before so you could not say they were experienced winners . And lets not forget that the two seasons after that we spent huge amounts of money on young players that were made by other clubs or introduced by them. £21 million on Shaun Wright Phillips, £25 million on a 23 year old Essien, £18 million on a teenage Mikel. How is this any different? We are still paying huge amounts of money for players that were molded by other clubs so they can make an immediate impact. A real change of emphasis would be actually using scouting and networks to bring in young players (mainly 16-200 that we bring up ourselves through the youth and reserve squad that would blended into the team. So far, despite claiming throughout the summer that youth products like Kalas, Chalobah ect would be used in this season, we have not seen any of them given any starts at all. The fact that we are paying £12 million pounds on Zouma who already has over 40 appearances at 18 with his parent club (and was heavily hyped over Europe) instead of giving the likes of Kalas a chance says it all. If he were to actually use youth products that did not cost over £10 million pounds and got rid of some of the older players like Lampard, Cole and Ivanovic to make way for them, then I would see this as long term planning with a completely different direction of managing the club. So far its the same old, expensive transfers for players other clubs have molded so they can make an immediate (or in about 6 months) impact.

Well why not? The only team that would be ranked as incredibly (almost impossible) difficult to beat is Munich (and even in this Champions league campaign), according to Jose the current Barcelona team is the worst in years and Real Madrid have shown they are inconstant. Considering that we have botch up in a league campaign that we should have won (I don't care how many say we were not in the running, we had the best squad in terms of depth and City and Liverpool are not indestructible like some try to portray) this would more then make up with it, and remember its a knockout competition so the complaints of consistency don't apply here. And if next season we don't win anything, will people still be using the transitional and long term excuses, considering that by the end of the second season under Jose's tenure is when things start to fall apart with the infighting and tensions . And typical for you to try and completely ignore my reasoning for arguing for quick success. I still believe that Jose is a short term manager and that he can't do long term, and so far is still operating the way he always does and won't be a long term manager for us, hence the reasoning for trophies now. If it were someone like Klopp who actually was showing signs of long term planning then I would not be making these expectations. Although you will probably ignore that to try and deflect that for something else so that you can continue your hobby of picking fights and causing arguments.

Just reading that first line shows you have the mental capabilities of a 9 year old who thinks he can talk like an adult. So last year a team consisting of the likes of Oscar, Mata, Hazard, Ramires, Azpi, Cahill, Terry, Ivanovic ect., most you have this season been singing their praises as being cornerstones of the team, were not good a team but magically are now, even though last year (however inconsistent they were) still manage to win the Europa League, the fact that he still has that squad as well as spending about £60 million pounds on new players does not indicate that this team is still in a huge transitional phase, it was a capable team of challenging for the title with the best depth in the league, no excuses such as having no efficient striker (should have not put all the eggs in one basket with Rooney). And sorry for having a sceptical mind and not just falling for the rhetoric without thinking for myself like you do. I have looked at Jose's past method when managing a club (short term based on coming to a club with good players and spending massive amounts of money to improve it) and so far he is doing exactly the same as he did then with no indication of changing the method of operations of the club when it comes to recruiting players (the use of young players from the youth teams instead of shelling millions on ready made players). It strikes me that despite the rhetoric he keeps spewing out that you just listen to without thinking critically for yourself, there is nothing that indicates to me that he will be here for the long term. That's why I since last summer I have had expectations of us winning the title this season, because I don't think he will be here for the long term and remain unconvinced that he will be capable of doing it I am on the belief that he needs to win now before he goes again and we are finding a new manager. We will have to agree to disagree on this but so far I remain unconvinced that he is actually a long term manager, and will be hoping that he can redeem my expectations by winning the champions league this season.

And how long will that last, considering that to me there is nothing there that indicates that he has changed his method of mangement and is still acting on short term ideas. Just becuase he haspayed hefty prices for the likes of Salah and Matic means nothing. Even in his first spell we were paying large sums for young players (£18 million for an 18year old Mikel, £21 million for a 24 year older Shaun Wright Phillips, £25 million for a 23 year old Essien), and so far he has done what he has always done, gone to a good team with great players and pay large sums of money for other ready made players, so forgive me that I don't beleive in any of these ideas that Jose is here for the long term and that we are in some transition year (we've been in one for the last bloody 2-3 years),and that I feel that he should be winning trophies now before he is probably gone in 2-3 years due to whatever reason. It will be interesting if he does leave in 2-3 years what he reaction will be, although judging by your tack record you will probably jumpship again and decide that actually we should get another manager.

And forgive me when it comes to having different expectations based on what my view are and from all the hype that this forum produces, especially what people were saying during the last summer andmy expectations wss that thisseason we should bewinning the league based on what Iexpected from the summer. The fact that you put one man above the club and cant seem to hold your own opinion for five minutes before jumping ship makes me pity you.

What's funny is how people would have reacted to this if we had a different manager. If last summer, after all the hype and speculation that Jose would be appointed after Rafa left we did not get him and (to a lot of people's disappointment) we hired someone else, and he had the exact same squad and and did the exact same transfers (the purchase of Matic and the selling of Mata ,which would have caused massive discontent and anger over this other manager because he was not Jose) andgot the exact same results and (hypothetically if it goes as many predict) that we win nothing this season. I guarantee that many here would be on this other manager's back with angry comments and would make the comment on the lines of "If we had Mourinho instead of (insert manager that we were linked with before Mourinho was appointed)he would have defiantly won the league for us" and would call this season a failure. which shows just how desperate some people are to move the goal posts when it comes to this man.

And what about your golden ball Chalobah? Funnily enough you were one of the posters who were incredibly critcial about the whole loaning out our young players on the lines that it can also be a negative orce in their developement and constantly showed anger about the fact that he seemed to be heading towards the path like our other young players, constant loaning out without ever being given a chance. What makes him different then Bamford who you now seem to whistle a different tune? At the end of the day you have to take a risk with young players like Chalobah and Bamford, something that Mourinho never seems to want to take. And that connects with your second point. Yes the likes of Salah and Matic are not nearing retirement, but we had to pay hefty prices to get them in (more frustrating with Matic becuase he was already on our books once) instead of giving someone in our youth squad a chance, and its not like these players (with the exception of Zouma) are teenagers who don't have much top flight European expeirence. We are still doing what we have been doing ever for the last decade or so, buying ready made talent rather then scouting for young talent that we can mold our own. Mourinho has so far shown no attempt to change this method and is still using his old method that is based on short term aquisitions to bring instant succes. He may be the best man for short term success, but as someone trying to develope a long term stragety that actually invovles changing the way the club operates and developes players? There has been bugger all in that department. He will always be a short term manager to me, that is why I feel he has to win trophies now or very soon, becuase there is no point since he will probably leave after 3-4 years.

Lol about this whole talk about a game plan that is being used to show that he is planning for the long term. Every manager has a game plan and a style of play the he uses for whatever club he is at. Didn't AVB and Scolari claim to have a ong term game plan before everyone was demanding that they be sacked when things went wrong? And the reason why I highlighted Bamford was becuase he shows exactly why Jose is not planning for the long term. We will probably be buying an expensive striker so he won't be getting any chances for us in the future, and if that striker flops we will buy another striker the next season,and Bamford won't be getting any sniff of a chance. That is what I highlight with the club and the managers operation so far and how it shows no long term planning from the beginning. And right from the start I have never, ever believed in the crap that Mourinho wants to build some dynasty and has some detailed long term plan from the club. To me he will always be a short term manager and so far in the two transfer windows he has been given with the club he is still acting that way with the transfers he has made. It spells a man trying to get a squad that can win the title at the end of the season. Becuase I believe he will only be here for 3-4 years at a maximun is the reason why I feel he should be winning trophies now. This has been a view I have taken right at the begining of the season. Unlike you I support the club, not just one man and if he can't win trophies for the club now or next season then I see no reason why we should believe that he will be here in the long run.

And what is the evidence. So far I have seen nothing that Jose is planning for the long term. All I have seen is him performing his usual modus operandi of taking over a squad that has very good players, making expensive purchases to improve this squad (William, Salah, Matic ect.) and acting his usual siege mentality to try and get instant results. All the while we have seen a whopping zero percent being used on trying youth products (Chalobah and Bamford being farmed off loan, Kalas rotting in the reserves ect.). Added by the fact that he will be making more expensive purchases in the summer like a striker (which will mean goobye to Lukaku or Bamford getting a chance to be part of the first team) suggest that he is still trying to play for instant succes despite all the crap rhetoric he is been giving. I still maintain he will only be here for 3-4 years at the most before leaving. Nothing suggest that he is building for the term and in my opinion he needs to win trophies now.

I just don't understand why he insits that Cesar play at LB and stop him going forward. Why not the other way around so Bran can act as 3rd centre back and that allows Cesar to bomb forward on his natural position on the right? Makes no sense.

Nothing has been shown that Jose is planning for the long term. He needs to win trophies now.