The only place to be

Sorry, but whilst you're correct about where he is playing right now, he hasn't played in that position for the entirety of his career. He arrived at Everton as a DM, was one of the best players in the league in that position and really only moved forward out of necessity.

I agree with this. It'd be nice to win it but the focus has to be on finishing Top Four in the prem. Look at what happened when Robbie played some of our most important players against United in the League Cup - we looked lethargic away to Swansea. We have to treat this like it's the League Cup in many ways.

I got the impression he could do that from him doing that exact thing very, very well for Everton. Where did you get the impression that he couldn't?

Fellaini would be the DM who breaks up play and links defence and attack. Alongside him you could probably play someone like Oscar.

I'd go with that team. I was going to say Ramires should play, but Cattermole looks to be out for them which takes a lot of the bite out of their midfield. Out of the CBs, I'd probably go with Cahill up against Fletcher. Looking at the individual match-ups (Hazard vs Bardsley, Moses vs Rose) I'm hoping that we really stuff them. O'Neill is probably the only manager in the league under more pressure than Benitez.

I don't think it's clueless at all. The main criticism I have of Mikel is his attitude. In the position he is in, he can't let his head drop or disappear in big moments. He can't get lazy and lethargic on the ball and he can't be sloppy. Whilst he's good most of the time (and he deserves credit for this) I think he can revert to type in key moments. Fellaini on the other hand is a guy who has stepped up for Everton this season and looked for the ball in high pressure situations. He's tidy on the ball and moves it on quickly, he's fantastic in the air (like Mikel) and has a tremendous physical presence. But it's the aggression that he has that I really like. Look at Mikel against Juventus - that to me is his defining moment. He gives the ball away sloppily when we're in transition (which I'm sure you will understand the severity of considering your obvious tactical nous). Then he has two choices. One is to pressure the person on the ball to win it back and the other is to move back into his position now that we are defending and pick up Vucinic. Mikel does neither. Instead he stands still for about 5 seconds (might be a little either side because I can't quite remember). Luiz picks up his marking job creating a space in the defence for Quagliarella to run into, Terry makes a second mistake by jumping out of defence and Juve score the equaliser. Now it might be unfair in some people's eyes for me to blame our CL exit on that one mistake but top level sport is so tight nowadays that trophies are won and lost on individual plays. You can't fall asleep for one second because you will be punished, and that's what happened here. I'm glad he got a new contract because I think he can do a job for us against some of the weaker teams, and maybe in a different role that requires less responsibility. But right now he's playing in arguably the most demanding, important position on the pitch and I simply do not think he has the mentality to play it. And here's an interesting point someone else raised - what other top team could you imagine him playing at, week in and week out?

The money is important unfortunately. Fortunately the bump in the PL revenue is significant but we can't ignore what is a reality of the modern game especially with FFP.

Any Chelsea fan can forgive the odd mistake (although giving the ball away in that position is awful). But quitting on your team and just standing there????? What's that all about?

So it wasn't JT's fault for mistiming the offside trap. Instead he should've tracked the player, although actually it was David Luiz's area of the pitch. Luiz isn't there though because he leaps out of defence to close down Vucinic (I think) who has dropped off to occupy the space in front of the defence which should be occupied by........ Mikel. Was it a major fuck-up? Yes. Were more Chelsea players at fault? Yes. Was it a great ball and a brilliant run? Absolutely. But did Mikel make 3 separate mistakes in that goal? Unfortunately yes.

I think you're wrong. Ashley Cole is playing Quagliarella onside too. JT could've played it perfectly, Quagliarella would've been onside. He could've gone with him but Quaglirella actually moves into the space Luiz should've been occupying. Luiz steps up into the space Mikel should've been in.

But it's not just one mistake. Look at Liverpool last year when he was caught in possession. Or against Arsenal last season. He almost had another against Spurs this season but he managed to get out of it with some nice touches. But the simple fact is that he shouldn't have held on to the ball long enough to get caught in the first place. He had some great moments last season in the CL run, but he benefitted from the whole team playing a lot deeper and more defensively in the Barca and Bayern games. What I'm talking about is games where he's left to hold that position on his own. I also think Chelsea fans are pretty fair about their own team and the fact that this issue keeps coming up suggests there may be more substance to it than you are prepared to acknowledge. Mikel's mistake against Juventus was of his own making. Him giving up is unforgiveable in any sport as anyone who has watched or played sport will know. It's the one thing you don't do and it's the one thing that will upset the paying supporters. I think he's good enough to be a squad player, where he's not put in a position that requires so much of him or where he's simply played against the weaker teams. I'm not by any means hating on him and saying we should sell him. But I simply don't think he has what it takes to be that guy for us and I honestly don't know any other top team who would play him in their teams in such an important position. You want to absolve him of any other responsibility or blame others, but I have to give the guy a huge amount of credit for actually taking ownership of that mistake against Juve and apologising for it after the game. He clearly holds himself to a higher standard that you're prepared to hold him which reflects well on him at least.

I'm not a massive fan of this competition but I don't know quite why people are clamouring for us to recall players who are getting invaluable experience of league football just to play in what could be a couple of matches. Sure, let's show our contempt for a trophy by messing up the development of youngsters....that'll show them Let's try not to do what we did against Man United in the League Cup, but go for a respectable showing with the likes of Piazon, Marin, Romeu, Bertrand and maybe even some of the Akes and Feruz's of our squad.

I'll praise him when he plays well. In fact he's been good in games this season, but he doesn't handle pressure well. When we do struggle in games, he's not the guy who puts his hand up and becomes 'the man'. I've been fortunate to see some of the best players in that type of position (Makelele, Deschamps, even Wisey for a time, Spackers ) and I just don't think he's good enough to be that guy for us. He came to us with attitude problems and yes he was a little bit lazy at first (not uncommon with players who were so much more talented and physically imposing then kids their age) and my view is that under pressure people revert to type. You can say Luiz and Terry made mistakes, but those mistakes came about because Mikel gave away the ball and didn't do his job by getting back into position. I simply don't know how you can defend giving up. It's the one thing you don't do in football and I notice that you're doing everything to avoid addressing this point. In fact it does seem as though any time Mikel gets criticised, there are people willing to bellyache about him being victimised (well Mata wouldn't be criticised ). Like it or not he's in one of the most important positions on the pitch (probably the most important) and whilst I like the guy, I simply don't think he's good enough for a top, top side.

The club deserve credit for spotting something in him that a lot of people missed. At Wigan he was often the only guy breaking because they spent so much time defending. It meant he was often rushed or simply isolated (yet his stats were still good). It's been a revelation to see him in a team who actually have more of the ball and he's been one of the best performers since he arrived. Love his directness and the fact that he plays with a smile on his face. In fact everything I've read and heard about him seems good. I like the idea of a club with good guys like him and Mata in it.

You make it sound as if a player 'giving up' after they gave away the ball is in some way acceptable. Sorry, but I disagree. Mikel can't give the ball away in that position, especially when we're transitioning from defence to attack. The team is in transition and it creates spaces for the opposition if they get possession back. It's why Barcelona place so much emphasis on the first 7 seconds after losing possession - it's a period of vulnerability IF you can get the ball back. So that was his first mistake. The second one was just standing there for about 5 seconds, not moving into his correct position or even advancing towards the man on the ball and putting him under pressure. That is unforgivable I'm afraid and I honestly don't know how you can defend it. Luiz's error was to abandon his position, but Mikel should've been on Vucinic as he had been at other points in the match because he was dropping off the front man to occupy that space in front of the defence (Mikel's position). When Luiz left that space, Quagliarella moved into it and maybe JT should've got across quicker but anyone who watches him knows that his game is about reading the game and being in position before the ball is made rather than moving to it after the ball is played. It's what makes him such a fine defender, but it can be exposed like it was here. But ultimately it comes back to Mikel's sloppiness with the ball and his laziness in reaction to it. YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN TOP-LEVEL SPORT.

Do you actually want to break down all the things that went wrong with that goal? Quagliarella actually makes a run off Terry and into the space next to him that David Luiz should be in. But where's Luiz?? Well he's actually jumped up to cover the Juventus player who has just moved off the front line into the space in front of the defence that should be occupied by.....Mikel. And where is Mikel? Well he's just been standing around for a few seconds having given the ball away. So you can blame JT for the poor attempt at the offside trap, or you can maybe blame Luiz for jumping out of defence to create space for Quagliarella (I don't know why you haven't mentioned this) but ultimately the ball was given away by Mikel and he then compounded it by making NO ATTEMPT to win it back or even get into the right position. I can almost forgive a player for making an honest mistake like Terry or Luiz arguably did, but for just giving up after making one? What's the excuse for that?

Bizarre atmosphere at the Bridge last night but a decent performance against a poor team. Ultimately I don't know if we learnt a huge amount about the players, but you have to give Rafa a bit of credit for a couple of things. Firstly, he tried different things that a few people on here have been asking for. He moved Luiz into midfield which worked well in that match. I don't think he can play that DM role but he might be a half-decent Ramires replacement in some games. He gave Romeu a game which will be important come the time of the African nations, and he also moved Oscar into a deeper midfield role which a lot of people think will be his main position in the future. Secondly, we saw a continuation of the midfield guys working harder to get back and also put pressure on the opposition defenders in the final third when they lost the ball. It all looked a lot more structured than it has done this season. Finally, he gave Paulo a run-out. Its a small gesture but it's good that one of the best servants this club has had in the last few years got a game. It might not have been much but it's good to keep all the players involved and we all know that we have a small squad so we need as many bodies as possible. Beyond that, we didn't learn much. We already knew Torres could score against poor opposition (QPR, Genk, Norwich.....Arsenal), we knew Luiz's laconic style worked well against poor opposition and I think we got a glimpse of what Hazard was like age 12 when he could bamboozle the other kids in the playground at will. Moses continues to impress and the signing of him seems remarkably astute. But this group was lost with the draw at home to Juventus. He wasn't on the pitch today but a special mention has to go to Mikel who showed in that Juve match not just how important that position is but how unsuited he is to it. You can't fall asleep in that position and you can't give up. He did both in that game and we all know that competitions like this come down to 1 or 2 errors over the course of 6 games.

I would be. That's his job, to link the defence and attack and to keep the ball moving thus dragging opposition players out of defence and providing space for teammates. He's also the extra man in defence and midfield, providing an out ball and simply keeping it moving. It's a very demanding role and I don't think he does it all the time. I think he's got a tendency to switch-off. The weird thing about him is that I can't imagine any other club wanting him. When I think about top clubs, I really don't know where he'd fit in. Yet at Chelsea he's something approaching 'untouchable'. It's bizarre.

It's a biased source but I can't see much wrong with the figures they've quoted. It seems to be one of those media myths, like the one about Roman sacking people willy-nilly when you can justify most of his moves. Or the bs stories about John Terry. Benitez has by no means the perfect record, but some of the stuff people are getting on him about are largely bollocks. I also know far more Liverpool fans who would point to Houllier or Dalglish's second tenure as being far worse with the cheque book, whilst the squad Benitez assembled was actually pretty good. Reina, Skrtl, Agger, Leiva are all pretty solid pros, whilst the likes of Alonso and Torres became truly world class players who the club made about £50 million profit on. You've obviously got your Aquilanis and Johnsons but he did build a team that managed to get 86 points in one season. Ancelotti did the exact same thing.

Kronkamp was a squad player. Is that really a bad signing when they made back most of the fee? Nunez was part of the Owen deal and valued at £1.5m. He was sold for £2m. Morientes never worked out but surely Chelsea fans more than most thought it was a decent punt?? They made about £3 million loss on that. Dossena was a bad one. Sold for about half what they bought him. Voronin was a free transfer that they reportedly sold for £4 million. Josemi was cheap and part of the swap-deal for Kronkamp. Keane was a flop, cost £19 million and sold for £12 million, rising to £16 million with add-ons. Itanje was a back-up keeper. Source - http://www.redandwhi...?topic=249365.0 Now I've produced my list and you've produced 8 players some of whom were flops and (bizarrely) one of whom was a free transfer that they sold for profit. I'm not seeing an overwhelming argument to support your view and I don't think, if you're honest, you'll see one either. What is clear that after about 4 seasons his signings did become a little more hit and miss. Just noticed I left off Skrtl who cost £6.5 million. As for the players I know, you're right. They could be towing the line. But I can only go by what I've heard and I've heard nothing to suggest he isn't respected by the players. Have you? I agree with your last point. But the board had to do what they thought was best for the club this season and after going with the fans' choice in the summer, there was a lot less sympathy for the fans' feelings this time around.

That chimes somewhat with what I've heard. One thing I heard is that Rafa is more like a 'proper football manager' - basically he knows exactly what he wants and he's run through training exercises hundreds of times. Robbie simply wasn't like that. He was much less of an authoritarian which meant when things went south his voice wasn't the loudest one. But I definitely agree with the last part. I don't think he is the guy to lead us forward because he is seen very much as a stop-gap. It's an open secret who Roman really wants and it's very hard to get past that. That doesn't mean he can't do a job or that he doesn't have the respect of the players. The young guys especially grew up seeing him win in Spain and also lift the Champions League at Liverpool. None of them give a fuck about comments about plastic flags.

I blame him for not working hard enough to provide cover for the back four, and I also think his passing can become slow and laboured at times. He's in a tough position because it requires a lot from the person playing it, but I simply don't think he can do it well enough for us especially when he's under a bit of pressure. I think that it's ultimately a character issue, something that we sometimes overlook as fans.

I arrived when I needed to vent over the recent change. The problem is that whilst I don't like Rafa, I don't hate him as much as some people on here do. I wasn't booing him at the match like other people did either. What I'm finding is that people are repeating a lot of bs about him. Things like his transfer record aren't perfect, but if you subjected almost any other manager to the same scrutiny then neither would their's. Someone also brought up the old chestnut of zonal marking the other day, yet when I challenged them on it they couldn't explain what was the problem with it. You don't have to trust anything I say, but I think if people took a step back and tried to be a little more objective then they'd see that statements like The players will never respect him, simply because he doesn't deserve it are at best unlikely but because they fit with people's established biases they're much more readily accepted.

The signings thing is one of those points people bring up but when you actually look at some of the players he bought, I'm not so sure it actually holds up. Every manager has their Francis Jeffers/Juan Veron/Bebe/Sutton/Shevchenko etc. One could even look at Guardiola's deal to bring in Zlatan. I'll just list some of his signings from his first 4 seasons. £10.7m - Xabi Alonso £6m - Luis Garcia £6m - Pepe Reina £5.6m - Momo Sissoko £7m - Peter Crouch £5.8m - Daniel Agger £6m - Craig Bellamy £9m - Dirk Kuyt £2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa £5m - Lucas Leiva £20.2m - Fernando Torres £5m - Yossi Benayoun £18.6m - Javier Mascherano Now I'm pretty sure every one of those players was worth more after Benitez signed them. Three of them arguably provide the spine of that team today (Reina, Agger, Leiva) whilst some have gone on to be truly world class. I hate being put in the position where it appears as though I'm defending him, but I'm simply trying to be as unbiased as possible. Of course there are the Pennants and Babels but I don't think his transfer dealings are much worse than any other teams - he doesn't have a SWP or Sheva in his history, although that's probably got more to do with our board than our managers. The reason he was bought in was partly due to his relationship with a roughly £100 million asset. The other is that there aren't a huge number of top class managers available who will accept 18 month contracts. Plus you can't expect me to say 'so and so said this'. I know that's frustrating but it's unfair. I just happen to work in an industry that has a lot of access to the club plus I just happen to know a few players and staff from just around. What you have to remember is that the vast majority of players don't have the same biases we have and that most of them just see this as business as usual. Plus Benitez's reputation in the game is pretty good. He's well-respected especially by the media.

Hopefully the team aren't approaching this in the same way you are. Modern European football is way too tight for this kind of complacency and Nordsjaelland have given good accounts of themselves in most of their games. They gave us enough problems for 75 minutes of the first game to make me think they could pose us problems. Should we win? Absolutely. Should we have qualified from the group? Almost certainly. Should we have been able to hold a two-goal lead at home to Juventus? Without doubt. Nordsjaelland will want to go out with a bang and we are ripe for the picking right now.