Stingray

You do know the faith of Christian Palestines in occupied territory? ITS THE SAME.

Nah that would you and CFC-4ever not replying to the content. Ive never seen you answer to an article put on, a documentary, .... we did btw always addressed your issues. Unlike what you preach around here. Plus: he did in fact really say he didn't think Palestinians and israelis were equal. I challenge you to answer the same question: are they equal in your eyes? This is the crux of the matter ..... what it all boils down too. I feel a lot of issues has been addressed properly, but i do not think you put forth a good case

@CFC_4EVER, Ouch. Propaganda much? Also on the "they said no to our peace offer" or "their only condition for a ceasefire has been (since the beginning) that Hamas stop all rocket attacks upon our country." Wrong. They also demand that the IDF be allowed to establish a "buffer zone" which translates to Israelis stealing more land in the name of "security." In fact, most "reasonable" deals the Israelis offer include demands for more and more Palestinian land and want Palestinians to acquiesce on the illegal settlements. Guess you don't hear that from Bennett or read that on IDF twitter, right?

I miss so much context here. What is that guy saying? Why is it a mortar and not a rocket? Where and when is this? Is this indeed a human shield? Id even like a translation from someone who speaks arab on here (Choulo, Mohammed?) If it is i find it repulsive, I really do and I already said I think Hamas is an extremist organization that does not deserve any praise whatsoever- but again i think the same about people who bomb children. Also, who put Hamas there to counter PLO? I refer back to The Gatekeepers where the Shin Bet guy acknowledges they supported them to get in the way of the PLO. Now what? Also: You keep on saying palestines=Hamas in your arguments. We disagree on this. this is also interesting on human shields (Gawker): "The concept of a human shield is simple: In lieu of an actual shield, or other defensive resource, a combatant protects his positions by relying on his enemy's reluctance to kill noncombatants. "You can kill me if you like, but you will also kill this child, which your moral and legal precepts prevent." The attacking party, faced with a choice between killing civilians and tolerating the persistence of a legitimate military target, chooses not to strike. The target is thereby shielded from attack. (Hamas' utter lack of moral and legal precepts with respect to civilian casualties renders such a choice moot for them.) This arrangement breaks down when the attacking party decides to go ahead and kill noncombatants anyway. The "shield" element fails. Which is why Netanyahu's use of the term "human shield" is imprecise. You don't get to call them shields after you've decided to kill them. The number of those people identified by Israel as combatants is unclear, but as of two days ago CBS News reported that roughly 60% of those killed by IDF operations in Gaza thus far were civilians.They obviously did not make an effective shield. We should stop calling them that.

Read this then, Commissioner-General of UN on the situation in the Gaza strip (14 july). Thank you for joining us at this press briefing. As we stand here, the Gaza Strip is once again experiencing very dramatic circumstances, circumstances we had hoped it would never have to experience again. The population of Gaza, including Palestine refugees, is once again enduring great suffering and many have lost their lives or sustained serious injuries. As Commissioner-General of UNRWA, I have come to Gaza, together with Humanitarian Coordinator James Rawley, to directly observe the situation resulting from the widening military operations. I also came to discuss with our Director of Operations in Gaza, Mr. Robert Turner, the level of UNRWA's preparedness and emergency response capabilities. I am deeply alarmed and affected by the escalation of violence in the Gaza Strip and the devastating human and physical toll it is taking on civilians, including Palestine refugees. The casualty numbers are now said to lie at 174 killed and over 1,100 wounded. All indications are -and I find this particulary dramatic - that women and children make up a sizable number of victims of the current strikes. I am equally disturbed that people with disabilities are among the victims, reportedly as a result of Israeli strikes. What began with the extensive use of air power could expand into a ground operation with an actual Israeli military incursion into Gaza, leading to a fear that more and more civilians will be affected. Meanwhile, rockets continue to be fired at various Israeli cities from within the Strip. We have all seen the images of smoke rising from different areas of Gaza. We have seen the destruction wrought by the bombing campaign. As I map the destruction for myself today, let me draw your attention to two things: First, never will even the most impressive television footage properly capture the depth of fear and despair felt in the homes and hearts of Gazans who are yet again facing death, devastation and displacement. Thousands of parents today have no more answers to give to their young children when they are asked why their houses are shaking or breaking under the weight and relentless force of the bombardments. Second, we must be careful about the endless enumeration of casualty numbers. The dead and injured in Gaza are not anonymous. Behind the figures lie multiple individual destinies now torn apart. Too often in their lives have Gazan civilians been denied their dignity. Anonymity in death or injury is the ultimate denial. It is also too comfortable for the world and the parties engaged in the hostilities. Palestinians are not statistics and we must never allow them to be treated as such. They are human beings like others in the world, with their identity and the same hopes and expectations for an improved future for their children. In this context, I urgently call on the Israeli Security Forces to put an end to attacks against, or endangering, civilians and civilian infrastructure which are contrary to international humanitarian law. In Gaza, risks are compounded by the very high population density. Maximum restraint must be exercised and measures of distinction, proportionality and precaution must be respected to avoid further casualties and overall destabilization. Clearly at this stage not enough is being done in that regard. Too many lives are being lost and this must end. If calm is not quickly restored, the casualty levels will become even more intolerable and unacceptable. I echo the United Nations' call for all parties to respect international law, and protect the civilian population. This includes an end to rocket fire from Gaza aimed at Israel, which the United Nations has described as indiscriminate. During my visit, I intend to meet with UNRWA teams. As you know, we recently declared an emergency for our operations in all five areas of Gaza. In recent days, we have dealt with several emergencies. We have 12,500 national and international staff in Gaza and I want here to pay tribute to their formidable courage and resolve. In the past hours, as a direct result of military operations, approximately 17,000 refugees have sought refuge in our 20 schools, some being displaced to the very same classrooms for the third time in five years. Let me recall that, during the Gaza fighting in 2008/9 over 50,000 people took sanctuary in UNRWA installations. People who came to UNRWA installations because they thought they could find safety and security were killed. In one incident, the UNRWA compound in Gaza where hundreds had taken refuge took a direct hit and the main UNRWA warehouse was burnt to the ground. Worryingly, already 47 of our premises, whether schools, clinics or warehouses have been damaged by the air raids and other fire. The inviolability of our installations and premises must be respected, in accordance with international law. Together with our partners in the UN system, with other local and international agencies present in Gaza, we are committed to keep this engagement strong and effective for as long as it takes. I call here on the donor and state community to ensure that these activities are properly funded. During my first visit to Gaza as Commissioner-General three months ago, it became evident to me that the situation of the population of Gaza and of Palestine Refugees here has become completely unsustainable. Israel’s illegal blockade has deepened poverty levels and youth or female unemployment levels (at 65% and over 80% respectively). Gaza's aquifer will have been entirely contaminated in the next three to four years making the strip essentially unlivable. But today, these indicators pale in comparison to the intensity of the bombardments and the fears for security and survival. Two things appear most evident when we see the destruction currently taking place around us. One, is that the conditions for Gaza's population will only deteriorate further as a result. Two, while standing here in Gaza today and while fully recognising that UNRWA's specific role is a humanitarian one, I put the question to all actors concerned: How long will it take before it is recognised that only a political solution will allow to move beyond the endless cycles of violence and destruction that repeatedly affect the population of Gaza and beyond. And how much longer before this is seriously, meaningfully and comprehensively addressed? An answer to those questions is urgent: the lives of tens of thousands are today at grave and imminent risk. I thank you. BACKGROUND INFORMATIONUNRWA is a United Nations agency established by the General Assembly in 1949 and is mandated to provide assistance and protection to a population of some 5 million registered Palestine refugees. Its mission is to help Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank and the Gaza Strip to achieve their full potential in human development, pending a just solution to their plight. UNRWA’s services encompass education, health care, relief and social services, camp infrastructure and improvement, and microfinance. Financial support to UNRWA has not kept pace with an increased demand for services caused by growing numbers of registered refugees, expanding need, and deepening poverty. As a result, the Agency's General Fund (GF), supporting UNRWA’s core activities and 97 per cent reliant on voluntary contributions, has begun each year with a large projected deficit. Currently the deficit stands at US$ 69 million. @MrExcalibur100, now be brave yourself and answer this, now you have accused me of not listening and/or answering.

I called it ethnic cleansing not genocide if you want to debate definitions. Also, so because it is bad somewhere else this excuses what happens in Gaza. Muslims in Saudi have it much better, than the people in Gaza and this is what it is about. Quod non. And I am not even listening? You guys never respond to my data or argumentation, you just jump to another topic and go on.

People should actually check UNRWA who have lots of camps there to see the truth : Camp Nuseirat: A busy and crowded camp, Nuseirat is currently home to more than 66,000 refugees. Set in the middle of the Gaza Strip, Nuseirat is very near Bureij and Maghazi camps. Nuseirat, which takes its name from a local Bedouin tribe, initially accommodated 16,000 refugees who fled from the southern districts of Palestine after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, including the coast and Be’er Sheva. Before the camp was formed, refugees had to live in a former British military prison in the area. BLOCKADEThe blockade on Gaza has made life more difficult for nearly all refugees in the camp, which now has extremely high unemployment. Far fewer families can provide for themselves and a staggering proportion of the population dependent on UNRWA’s food and cash assistance. Ninety per cent of the water is unfit for human consumption, so basic hygiene is another great concern. STATISTICSMore than 66,000 registered refugees 11 school buildings, of which 9 operate on a double-shift basis, accommodating 20 schools One food distribution centre Two health centresMAJOR PROBLEMSElectricity cuts High unemployment Three-mile fishing limit High population density suppliesContaminated water supply Lack of availability of construction materialsCamp 'Beach' he third largest of the Gaza Strip’s eight refugee camps – and one of the most crowded – Beach camp is known locally as "Shati". The camp is on the Mediterranean coast in the Gaza City area. Beach camp initially accommodated 23,000 refugees who fled from Lydd, Jaffa, Be’er Sheva and other areas of Palestine. The camp is now home to more than 87,000 refugees, who all reside in an area of only 0.52 square kilometres. Streets and alleys in the camp are often very narrow and the area is considered among the most densely populated in the world BLOCKADEUnemployment has risen considerably since the blockade was imposed on Gaza, making life more difficult for most refugees in Beach camp. Far fewer families can provide for themselves and a huge proportion of the population is dependent on UNRWA’s food and cash assistance. At the same time, the ban on entry of cement and gravel has made it impossible for refugees to build or repair shelters. Basic hygiene is also of great concern, as 90 per cent of the water is unfit for human consumption. FISHING LIMITThe Israel Defense Forces’ imposition of a three-mile fishing limit has particularly affected Beach camp. The diminished fishing catch has led to lost livelihoods and increased poverty. STATISTICSMore than 87,000 registered refugees 16 school buildings running on double shifts to accommodate 32 schools. UNRWA also uses a Palestinian Authority school building for one school in the afternoon. One food distribution centre One health centreMAJOR PROBLEMSElectricity cuts High unemployment Three-mile fishing limit High population density Contaminated water supply Lack of availability of construction materialsCamp Bureij Bureij camp is a comparatively small refugee camp located in the middle of the Gaza Strip. The camp is near Maghazi and Nuseirat refugee camps. Bureij camp was built in the 1950s to house approximately 13,000 refugees who until then had lived in British army barracks and tents. The refugees who settled in Bureij had mostly come from towns east of Gaza, such as Falouja. Today, the refugee population of Bureij is more than 34,000. BLOCKADEThe blockade on Gaza has made life more difficult for most camp residents. Unemployment levels have risen dramatically and fewer families can provide for themselves, leaving a staggering proportion of the population dependent on UNRWA’s food and cash aid. WATER AND SANITATIONBureij camp is located close to Wadi Gaza, an open sewage pond from which raw sewage flows directly into the sea. According to the United Nations Environment Programme, up to 80,000 cubic metres of raw or partially treated sewage are pumped out to the ocean in Gaza each day, resulting in serious environmental health risks, including watery and bloody diarrhoea among refugee children. In the camp, 90 per cent of the water is unfit for human consumption. STATISTICSOver 34,000 registered refugees Seven school buildings, four of which run on a double-shift basis, accommodating 11 schools, four running on double shifts One food distribution centre One health centre MAJOR PROBLEMSElectricity cuts High unemployment High population density Lack of availability of construction materials Contaminated water supply and proximity to Wadi Gaza It goes on and on. Ill give some highlights: Jabalia is the closest camp to Erez border crossing with Israel. According to OCHA, before the second Intifada, more than 21,000 Palestinians crossed Erez to work in Israel each day. Since 12 June 2007, the crossing has been closed to pedestrian traffic, with very limited exceptions made for medical and business cases. Kahn Younis: Over the years, many of the refugees living in Khan Younis lost their shelters in Israel Defense Forces operations. Prior to the imposition of the blockade, UNRWA had commenced a significant re-housing project to accommodate all those who had lost their shelters. However, the blockade prevented UNRWA from bringing in construction materials to complete the project, leaving thousands of people without permanent shelters. UNRWA only received permission in 2010 to bring in the materials to complete a number of housing units for refugees whose shelters were demolished years ago. UNRWA estimates that it must construct a minimum of 10,000 shelters to re-house refugees currently living in unacceptable conditions and/or who have lost their homes as a result of the conflict. Maghazi: No construction or repair work can take place as the blockade prevents Gazans from importing building materials. This has intensified problems housing the expanding population and maintaining the camp’s overstretched infrastructure. http://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/gaza-strip/camp-profiles?field=1 UNRWA is no 'biased' organization. As I said , it is the organization that is THERE and it is the organization the CIA gets its intel from (see website in former post). What do candle and glasses help if the monkey just refuses to see ...

War ... what is it good for .... absolutely nuthin!

Statistics mate. High birthrate, high fertility rate. Not a miracle, those do not exist. Also on the same page and source: What is really funny is that data comes from UNRWA, United Nations Relief and Works Agency. They say EXACTLY the same thing as we have been saying : http://www.unrwa.org and it is the source the CIA uses. COMON!!!! How much more evidence do you even need. They also say this : "According to Israel UNRWA is unobjective and choses sides for Palestine" furthermore on their site: In the aftermath of the hostilities of June 1967 and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, ten camps were established to accommodate a new wave of displaced persons, both refugees and non-refugees. Huh, occupation? really? Of palestinian land mind you (which it is de facto - just ask yourself, where is Israels official border? it always becomes silent after I ask this question) on a UN site the CIA refers to? Really? And ... immigration rate .... Why would that be, because its such a nice place to live? everything taken care of by Israel: gas, electricity, etc. as mentioned before here a couple of times.

Ok my bad Canada :-) i just saw the CA on tapatalk and assumed California. Obviously you dont know me that well. Ive given nothing but in depth argumentation. You did zip but say its all bs and remarked you arent going to make a remark. Pure class.

dp

Thanks for that valuable input. Country: USA; interests: Bible from your profile That kinda sums up your position really. Too bad no input beyond a few cries like 'bs' and 'misinformation' and all that Jazz. If that is disinformed, the UN is misinformed, Human Rights Watch is misinformed. The israeli intelligence service is misinformed. Hell, even Obama is misinformed. I bet you even think Darwin was misinformed :-)

Terrible curious. It could change the entire dynamics of our game imo

1. Im an atheïst. You are clearly not so the bias your writing about is hurting your own argument hugely. 2. What about before Hamas? And what does that say? 3. What about context of the occupation that triggers the entire damn thing? 4. If anything it is the US that has the most propaganda spewed of the entire west. Remind me how much billion dollar a year you give to Israel? 1/3 of the complete budget on foreigners aid, in weapins mostly. 5. If its so biased, why does the UN disagree consistently, why does Human rights watch disagree?why does pretty much the entire world disagree? 6. If arabs hate jews so much 'by nature', why was it that jews had it best in the world during history in episodes under muslim rule. Eg: Palestina before the invasion, or even more famous- the golden century in Spain in the middle Ages. All periods jewish people were progrommed from non muslims.

How is Zouma guys?

The treatment of children in occiers territory. Australian recent 2014 documentary. Must see. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iqL048x4msM

No, reread about 75% of all aforementioned posts for all the argumentaties and context.

Remind me to go back real soon! Ps. Utrecht is awesome

No I did not. I said the retaliation is disproportional. Very much so and has been for decades. C No I didnt. But context matters. You forget the past, why do they need protecting in the first place? Plus, how is bombing a tightly locked strip of land with more than 50% children protection? It is sheer revenge and agression. Even Shin bet heads are now openly saying the only option put is through authentic debate. Not continuously violating every treaty possible and every UN resolution. Eg all the times you have been indicted. Also, yes those three teens were killed, if its Hamas none knows for sure yet. But even if it is, it was avenged by settlers porring gasoline down a young palestinians throat and setting him on fire. This immediatelly followed by bombings. So ..... Its a bit more nuanced. By the way, the comon worry now in Europe is indeed that the right wingedness is over the top. It Spears volumes that it is actually hard/ impossible to be a leftist nowadays there. That says a lot in a democracy. Also, why are there soldiers everywhere, then why is it infused with Israeli checkpoints if you have 'retreated'. It is a concentraties camp, mate. Barb wired and everything. On the ostage taking- again context and history. Why did this happen? Also people dont just decide to kill themselves as suïcide bombers. What made them so desperate in the first place? Like an oven .... I believe this . I do listen to you, and i give examples, data, documentaries, artikels and opinions every time. Why not go about the same way if you have the facts on your Side? Fact embeded in context and history, mind you. This is such an important debate that im trying to do it in a civilized way. You are young, in a country full of turmoil. Every dissenting opinion is a blessing in disguise, i believe.

I agree with former post..peace is an answer. Not annihiliation. As much as i want it for Palestine, I believe Israeli are also people.

You forgot the 5 kids they blew up on the beach just now. I bet Hamas was hiding under the sand as well...

Sad. They are the victims of Israels army and their weapons. I am glad you finally came through to speak your heart. You really do not see them as equal. So it is ok to kill innocents? Where do you want Hamas to hide in Gaza? Have you seen the place? If Hamas put a bomb on a IDF soldiers home, how severe would the retaliation be? You see them as Untermenschen, and yes, I do use that term. Maybe you are one of those Israeli youths wearing a t-shirt like this? The cultural environment is your country is so right wing right now, you are completely blind for it...

Gaza is a de facto concentration camp. It is against EVERY international treaty and law, what you guys are doing. And the argument about London being bombed: London was but it didn't put a fence around Belfast and bomb the shit out of it. Its their problem you say ... it means an utter disrespect for the lives of innocent people. Hence my question: do you think Israelis and Palestininians are equal? To quote the old testament: 20 The LORD also said, "Sodom and Gomorrah have many complaints against them, and their sin is very serious. 21 I must go down and see whether these complaints are true. If not, I will know it." 22 From there the men turned and went on toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing in front of the LORD. 23 Abraham came closer and asked, "Are you really going to sweep away the innocent with the guilty? 24 What if there are 50 innocent people in the city? Are you really going to sweep them away? Won't you spare that place for the sake of the 50 innocent people who are in it? 25 It would be unthinkable for you to do such a thing, to treat the innocent and the guilty alike and to kill the innocent with the guilty. That would be unthinkable! Won't the judge of the whole earth do what is fair?" 26 The LORD said, "If I find 50 innocent people inside the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." 27 Abraham asked, "Consider now, if I may be so bold as to ask you, although I'm [only] dust and ashes, 28 what if there are 45 innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of 5 fewer people?" The LORD answered, "I will not destroy it if I find 45 there." 29 Abraham asked him again, "What if 40 are found there?" He answered, "For the sake of the 40 I will not do it." 30 "Please don't be angry if I speak again," Abraham said. "What if 30 are found there?" He answered, "If I find 30 there, I will not do it." 31 "Look now, if I may be so bold as to ask you," Abraham said. "What if 20 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 20." 32 "Please don't be angry if I speak only one more time," Abraham said. "What if 10 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 10." 33 When the LORD finished speaking to Abraham, he left. Abraham returned home. Even though it has Hamas and rockets, it has more then 10, 20, 30 or 50 innocents. It already has 800.000 children..... Have you lost your humanity completely?

Thats exactly the agenda, get them out and/or killed and annex the land. This tactics of silent killing in order to accomplish that agenda is just what is happening now. This is the definition of an ethnic cleansing - as it is been seen by more and more people all over the world and believe me the world is watching - not just the neocons that are posted here on those youtube movies.

Thats a good one ...