BlueLyon

How is his overall game for those who watch Vitesse games?

Good game. We didnt play too fluid upfront, but we did well in defense and eventualy scored two goals after pressing them bit more. Glad to see Iva out and Moses in, its understandable that Cahill was playing since Zouma and Terry are still out. But have no clue why isnt Bats playing more...

Deja vu for that Costa goal

He should be renamed to Calamity Gary.

You are missing my point. Much like Moses isnt (apparently) more useful than Willian (as you and Tomo think); same was with those other players like Luiz and Schurrle. Its not about their quality. They were never given a chance. People said, Schurrle shouldnt play, Willian plays better. Luis shouldnt play Iva plays better. Kdb and so on and on and on. And its true. At the time, they were inferior players to our starters (much like Moses is to Willian), but they got chance elsewhere and are lot better than what we have now. Tbh right now I would play Moses ahead of Willian, so its just you who thinks that Willian not giving shit is better than Moses. Im not contradicting myself. All Im saying is that Moses should be given a chance here, because he did well so far and Willian did poor so far. And moreso, because poor form players have to benched with whoever we have so they learn a fucking lession that they are not ireeplacable and need to work harder (on that occasion, for few games Moses will do just fine to slot in as he did show so far). He doesnt have to be Messi or whatever, but like I said if he wakes Willian, we will be better. And if Willian wont care to be on bench, sell him. Because we have many players and keep playing the same players who did fuck all for past year and still play. And I dont buy the crap that others simply aint better, because its not a coincidence when they permamently move away they begin to shine. I dont buy the crap that we dont have better fullback than Iva and that its reason why Iva keeps playing. Ffs I would play Aina over Iva right now. But problem with our board (and in this case you and Tomo) that you have no faith in players we have. @Tomo speaking of Moses development, just how much did Willian improve over the years then? Gets to play all the time and on consistent level, he improved jack shit since his arrival. And like I said, its all attitude. If the players dont give a shit, you bench them. Every club does it, but ours. Thats why we are in this mess. Because like you two, in theory dont have the balls to drop underperforming player for someone else. If we had Kenedy I would play him or Traore even. But we dont. We right now have Moses. But hey, lets keep playing Willian and Matic and Iva, because we are too afraid to play others who didnt prove themselves. Well @Tomo we might continue the debate in april, but your missing the point. I dont mean Moses is/will turn brilliant, but on current situation he should play for reasons mentioned earlier. And if he somehow explodes, even better then.

Well its funny because Schurrle and Bertrand are doing better than those who replaced them and were supposed to be better Fair share of people also said that Luis wasnt good enough and didnt realy complain with sale until he beasted again for Atletico. There is a reason why we are so poor for past 8 years or so, with exception of few runs. Because people have this perception that Cahill, Willian etc are still very good players, much better than the likes of previously mentioned Moses or Schurrle, Bertrand etc...its a myth. But no one has the balls to bench them because of their status or lack of trust in other players. No, Papy has no place in comparisson with Moses. Papy didnt play well for us even last year, I would prefer Cahill ahead. Even if he gave 100, he didnt show anything. Moses had good season at stoke, and now few good games this season. He did better than Willian IMO, and thats all that matters when deciding who to pick for next match. Im going completely off topic, but last season Pep bought Coman to bayern, after Coman had pretty poor spells at juve and Psg. Regardless, Ribery and Robben were injured and bit out of form later, and Pep gave chance to Coman still. Didnt matter how big Robbery was, Coman was given a fair chance. And thats all there is. Kenedy would never get that chance and even if Willian was in worst form of his life. Its not just about Moses. Its about sending message to these players that they better get their shit together or they can leave. Moses might not be brilliant, like u said, but he 1.) Deserves a chance and 2.) Willian deserves to be benched. Like with your Yaya example, Willian is similar. Pep would never play Yaya even if he only had Delph available as alternative. He would also rather play Moses than Willian who clearly doesnt give fuck atm (and like I said, this applies to rest of the team too). Tbh Pep would buy Willians replacement in summer, but thats not the point. I just dont get it why are people so against benching underperforming players. Like if you were scared we will play even worse, when in fact looking at last three games, we almost cant play worse. I dont know why such lack of faith in other players. Then you complain why we sold this guy and that guy...but you never want to take some risks.

He was actualy good for Stoke and I have no idea why they didnt sign him back then (or maybe we wanted more than they offered, who knows) Papy has nothing to do with this. Moses put good performances every time he played for us this season. Willian's highlight of the season however is walking slowly off the pitch with no fucks given after we are 3:0 down to fucking arsenal. That rotten attitude can leave the club and I dont care if its Messi himself. There is a reason why we were successful back then without having Ronaldinhos, Kakas, Ronaldos of the world. Because we had players that fucking gave a shit about our club. I will take someone who works hard every time over someone who is some wannabe who thinks that cant get benched. Willian could be formed into very good player if he adopted. Maybe even in b2b place instead of Oscar. He has work ethic (at least had it), he can press and is good on the ball and can pass. But he is not good in finishing off attacks and dribbling. What we do? Play him as winger who dribbles and tries to finish actions, but ends up fucking every second one. Either he must adopt to different role or he can leave if he thinks he is the second coming of Ronaldinho. Fact is he cant drbble past anyone, he cant make a decent cross, rarely scores and I was actualy fine with that, because at least he worked his ass off. But now he doesnt do that anymore. Playing with 50% every game. You would take Willian at 50% over someone less talented, but who would give his 100%? Shame. Thats the reason we are in this shit situation right now. Its all about names. Willian is better, more composed on the ball, more experienced, part of winning team 2014 etc etc. And so he should keep playing even if he is now only a shadow of himself and there is someone else on bench who is actualy doing better? Nah. Courtois walked straight into team without proving himself against Cech, and that been ever since. And look where he is now. Half the player he was when he was in atletico where he would get replaced with that attitude in a second. At the least he should be benched so he gets a fucking message that he needs to work to be in 11, that he needs to get his arse back to 100%. Maybe few games on bench will give him boost to perform better. If yes, win for us. If not, then he can fuck off to another club to give his 50% in every game. He aint exceptional player like Eden to get this kind of bonuses. Same applies to all other players.

City has some fugly kits, and we complain about our third ones every year

Arsenal went with Iwobi and he did well. Moses might not be your typical fancy player for big club, but this is the problem with this club. Moses isnt big name and no fucking way should he play. Even if Willian is absolutely rubbish, Moses isnt the guy. This thinking. Moses did realy good in all games he got chance. He tries hard and wants to prove himself. The only thing hurting your eyes is players like him not given a chance. Now if we had frickin Ronaldo in this team, I would understand, but I dont want Willian or Pedro nowhere near first 11 because they are rubbish atm, so giving Moses a go is not a bad idea at all. Few years ago, we had Schurrle, Kdb, Luiz in this team, but we said, no not good enough, and decided to play with more established players instead. Im not saying Moses will turn into a top player, but I just hoped the fans and board would realise by now that big name or established player means shit. Moses like those mentioned before is talented enough and shown enough to get a fuckin run. They didnt get one, but like I said I hope the board learned from their mistakes. For the future, we still have Christansen, Aina, Charly and Kenedy at the least, but if they dont get chance here, they will get it elsewhere. They will probably play average in first few games, but people should show some fuckin faith for the first time in 10 years here. We are in shithole situation right now and who knows maybe Moses is gonna be a late bloomer, maybe not. Its not like we have brilliant performers right now, so why not give him a chance?

Thing is we have no dynamics in there with Matic and Cesc. Meanwhile Coquelin, Cazorla and Ozil are all dynamic enough to work when they have the ball, to move it around quickly. We decided to play defensive, thats why we thrown Matic, Cesc and Kante. Meanwhile Arsenal went attacking and thats why they picked those players. But we entirely fucked up with tactics. We should press them, take control and dictate tempo. Arsenal has no players to outpower us in such case. That midfield would be useless for them in case we actualy pressed them and attacked alot. But we went opposite. We allowed them to have all the time on the ball, to set up attacks and to press us which killed our midfield entirely. Like some pointed Oscar would be much more useful in this game than Cesc or Matic. Thing is, Cesc was always good against arsenal (only good side he performed well against), but thats because they never pressed us. However they prepared well for this game. Any team that presses us, kills us. And Arsenal finaly managed to figure that out too. Thats why Cesc didnt play well. I know we have midfield problems, Matic and Oscar have their faults, but Cesc shouldnt play again against teams that press. His passing is quality, but he completely destroys the midfield with his slow movement and lack of agression and mobility. And with such midfielder, there is no way we will succeed because its like playing with 10 men. Now Matic is a problem too with his slow movement, so if we had two Kantes, maybe maybe Cesc could play, but in current case no way. He is absolute shit under pressure and all teams are starting to play those tactics against us.

True. Change of coach would be worst decision atm. Conte is getting to see how shit some players are and will make changes sooner or later. Change the coach and it will again take half year for them to see who is good and who is bad, but by then they will get the sack and rollercoaster will continue, while shit players will keep playing. I do agree we should keep him till end of season no matter what (unless some realy poor results), but if he doesnt bench Iva and Cahill, its beyond me to understand him. Perhaps is true that we dont have better replcements, but it was no doubt Conte who brought Alonso for 25m here and now he doesnt consider him better than Iva? Why would you then pay 25m for someone who will be on bench when you could keep Kenedy and spend that money on better choice. Thats bollocks and its going to be terrible to have a manager like that if this theory is true. Also, I dont think Conte is good with youth. If he was he would groom young players to the team (considering we have many shit players needed to be replaced), but he didnt yet because either 1.) He doesnt know how to develop young players or 2.) He doesnt consider certain players being shit. Either way its very bad for future of chelsea. During the span of next few months we will see. I wont mind if we lose games with young players who will be developing or if players give 100%. However if the players show no desire and if young ones arent integrated, meaning same shit players will keep playing, then its obvious Conte is not the solution. Right now its way too early to judge, it worked in begginig, now not anymore and Conte must fix this. We will see how he does from now on when he, we and everyone else knows that changes have to be made.

Well to be honest, Atletico and Bvb have put themselves on the map by developing their own players, but in past few years, they spent quite alot themselves. No way they would be still this good without Griezmann or Aubameyang and so on. They started differently, but today they are same like any other big club. And to remain on top, they have to be. Leicester will soon follow that road, they signed Slimani and wanted Silva etc... They no longer buy players for peanuts and develop them in world beaters. Now obviously they dont splash 80m on individuals, but neither do we for example. I truly respect them and their runs (bvb in 2013) and Atletico year later, but today they are simply a big clubs with lot of money. Same could be said for us these years when we follow ffp like crazy, try to balance the expenditures and revenues from player sales, but majority of fans still consider us as buying club. Meanwhile when bvb signs Auba for 30 or Atletico Griezmann for 30m, they are respected and called club with working ethics and desire etc., grooming their own players etc. After Tibo left, they paid 30m or so for Oblak instead of going after another less known GK and thats a pretty clear example. Atletico spent over 80m on players this summer. I know where you are getting, and much like u I respect Bvb and Atletico alot (tbh they are clubs I follow most after Chelsea), but dont get confused by their rise in past few years with "small, cheap" teams and their buy policy today. Today they are in the same boat as any other top team in europe. Pay top price for the players they want. And they pay. The pshychology is spot on here. No matter what, the first impression is damn important in world football. Atletico and Bvb will be known as small clubs who got big with their own players, we will be always known as big spending club. Even if today roles of the clubs are much more similar than they were in 2003 or 2013, people will still judge us based on those first impressions.

When you watch this kind of games and see that Varane or Schmeltzer offer more in attack than Willian, Oscar and Matic combined...

Our club is treating players like assets, tools, products. Not like humans and our future. Youth has all the right to treat the club in the same way back.

Why the fuck would our youth care and try if they know they will go straight on loan for next 4 years? They know they wont get the chance. The best way they succeed is if they have couple of good loans in some shithole and after they spent their youth in london at club like chelsea, the change is too much. And even then there is 5% chance they will succeed here. So why bother? Any ambitious player we have would FORCE a transfer away like Pogba did at united.

There will be always players like Dahoud, Inaki Williams, Sidibe etc if we cant land the very best. As long we dont settle for mediocre players...

He knows his dirty stuff and is demanding his place or Roman's shit is getting viral.

Its up to manager to pick his squad, the one he thinks he has most chance to win with. Its also on manager to show some balls and play younger players instead of starters, despite it could result in poor display by that kid, but here we are building for the future, so its understandable. Its also on manager to groom and improve these young players into quality ones. Like Conte said, the pitch will talk. I know he has bunch of players who underperform, but he is the one to make decisions and has the players on the bench to use them. If he is afraid that Aina or RLC will fuck up the game and instead picks "reliable" players, its his fault. We all know the pressure is huge. We won first three games but many lost their shit after that draw vs swansea already. While in fact, 3 wins and draw wasnt bad at all for a team like ours. But obviously the pressure got up and up with each game. From the fans to the board. It all comes down to players and mostly Conte. Will he pick experienced player over young prospect? No he wont, unless he doesnt have faith and belief, if he doesnt have guts and if he doesnt have skill to make that prospect a better player than the experienced one. Not to mention the defensive tactics he picked for pool and arsenal game, when its clear as day that we dont have a team to do that. If the players were indeed unhappy with his tactical decision, shame on them, but for fucks sake, why cant we have a manager that will allow our players to express themselves, to play attacking football instead of this defensive tactics over and over again. Conte has alot to prove and so do the players. But I dont like what I see from Conte one bit. At the least, as tough manager he is supposed to be, he acted like chicken on and off the pitch for the past two weeks. We won first three games, with two won in very late stages, we were losing to leicester 2:0 despite we managed to turn around, its just bad. And we lost both games against big teams comfortably without any fight. You can lose, but at least lose trying. No this shit show we have been seeing lately with no love. I remember his wild celebrations in the start, where did that passion go? Or was it all just for the show?

Come on guys, have you thought how Iva would feel if he read this thread? No, you only think about yourself.

Don balon is saying Conte wants Dimaria Here we go again...

Im happy they are doing well. They would never get the chance here. I would accept a shit season to see these players get serious chance next year. Seriously, this club is not yet in such a big mess. We have some good players in squad and some good youth players too. Few new ones and we can get back to best in couple years. But only if board wont be idiots and sell all the talent, keep the deadwood and change coach every year. We desperately need a good project and stick to it.

The tables of city and chelsea have turned. Before we made wise buys, had good structure, identity and meanwhile city was throwing cash out of window for average players. Today its opposite. City brought smart people to the board and now also a very good coach. They have built good basis. But I still dont see them as what some would say family. Still a group of people, but they do have Guardiola now who might reshape the culture of the club. Meanwhile we have regressed in every possible way. Perhaps we were just lucky to have all those players back then, great members in board like Kenyon, Wilkins etc and everything went fine. Then came restructure after restructure, key people got tired of that and left, players have gotten old and new boards never managed to get us back on top The worst is, we let Kenyon go so quick, who did fantastic job but probably argued with Roman and got the boot. Meanwhile Marina who is doing fuck all, probably the worst director we had and still not fired. I like Roman, but I feel he is running the club on passion and emotions. Someone says something bad, he leaves. Someone kissing his ass and he stays. It should be run more professional, then we can get out of the shithole we are in.

I think he is still the presence in the squad. You know the guy who you dont fuck with. The guy who trains hard etc. Thats why he is getting selected over and over. Because he is professional. Its not that he doesnt give a fuck or anything. He probably still has hunger and desire to play and shows it more than Aina and others. However he is way past it and it shows on the pitch.

I dont get three things 1.) whats with defensive set up every game (Pool, arsenal, leicester) when we have shit defenders? Wouldnt be better to attack in this case, try to control the game. When we go out attack and click we aint bad at all in this and we can take some pressure of the defenders. 2.) Why keep playing Ivanovic? I know he wanted new fullback and he got one in Alonso. Not the best choice, but certainly better than Iva. So why is he not playing him? Cahill, I understand to a point because Zouma and Terry are out right now. But whats the excuse for Iva?? 3.) Subs. Why is Pedro (who did nothing so far under Conte) ahead of Moses and Bats (who actualy had few good games)? Conte is still building his squad, but its pointless if he keeps playing players who are clearly out of form and desire to play.

People start appreciating things only when they lose them.