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the wes

Tiemoué Bakayoko

Started by the wes,

295 posts in this topic
12 hours ago, The Skipper said:

You proceed calling him the black Matic and then continue to describe a completely different player...

If you don't think that he's a player not capable of carrying the ball then you obviously haven't watched him enough. 

"He's not very dynamic, has a poor passing range, generally is quite clumsy and so not very adventurous." is also how I'd describe Matic?

 

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6 hours ago, ja1 said:

"He's not very dynamic, has a poor passing range, generally is quite clumsy and so not very adventurous." is also how I'd describe Matic?

 

My point is that he is a very dynamic player, if you watched him play you would know such. Completely different to Matic, much more athletic, way better in his close control dribbling as well. I think at Monaco, he is instructed to be less adventurous because they only play with 2 CMs. It's how their systems work. Both of their CMs are not as adventurous because they provide a platform for the true attacking talent to showcase their exactly that. 

Bakayoko is underused in that aspect, held back a bit. He has the ability to execute some amazing long bursting runs from box to box to truly instigate attacks, with his athleticism and close control, but because he's a real force defensively as well, his manager has decided to tap into that more to get his system to run well. And its worked very well, they are top of the table in France atm. 

That's what I mean by you completely describing a different player. He isn't the black Matic at all. A black Matic wouldn't have the attributes he does.

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3 hours ago, The Skipper said:

My point is that he is a very dynamic player, if you watched him play you would know such. Completely different to Matic, much more athletic, way better in his close control dribbling as well. I think at Monaco, he is instructed to be less adventurous because they only play with 2 CMs. It's how their systems work. Both of their CMs are not as adventurous because they provide a platform for the true attacking talent to showcase their exactly that. 

Bakayoko is underused in that aspect, held back a bit. He has the ability to execute some amazing long bursting runs from box to box to truly instigate attacks, with his athleticism and close control, but because he's a real force defensively as well, his manager has decided to tap into that more to get his system to run well. And its worked very well, they are top of the table in France atm. 

That's what I mean by you completely describing a different player. He isn't the black Matic at all. A black Matic wouldn't have the attributes he does.

His passing, decision making and general awareness do seem to be quite lacking, won't you agree?

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6 minutes ago, Mufassir08 said:

His passing, decision making and general awareness do seem to be quite lacking, won't you agree?

Agree with passing and decision making but that'll get better. Don't agree with general awareness though. 

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Just now, The Skipper said:

Agree with passing and decision making but that'll get better. Don't agree with general awareness though. 

My biggest gripe with him is that he looses the ball way too often due to his sloppy passing, we already struggle against teams that press us high and having a midfield pairing of Baka and Kante would see us struggle against the high energy teams albeit defensively and in terms of athletic ability, we would be very good. I do realize that Baka might wriggle his way out of some situations due to his good feet but more often than not due his general sloppiness on the ball, I think we'll see a lot of turnovers in midfield.

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14 minutes ago, Mufassir08 said:

His passing, decision making and general awareness do seem to be quite lacking, won't you agree?

Was Toure not like at Barcelona before he turn into cracking player for city? 

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4 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

My biggest gripe with him is that he looses the ball way too often due to his sloppy passing, we already struggle against teams that press us high and having a midfield pairing of Baka and Kante would see us struggle against the high energy teams albeit defensively and in terms of athletic ability, we would be very good. I do realize that Baka might wriggle his way out of some situations due to his good feet but more often than not due his general sloppiness on the ball, I think we'll see a lot of turnovers in midfield.

He completes most of his passes, it's around 90%. It's not so bad. It's not a problem in Conte's system. We don't really create much from CM. He wouldn't struggle against high energy teams because of his dribbling ability.

And besides, Kante and Bakayoko shielding Fabregas would be an option if we needed more control in midfield. 

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5 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

I disagree, Toure always had great technique and was incredibly hard to disposses. It's only that at City he got more freedom to show the more expansive side of his game.

kinda like what Mikel could have offered us if he was given that kind of freedom, who knows?

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2 hours ago, Johnnyeye said:

kinda like what Mikel could have offered us if he was given that kind of freedom, who knows?

Mikel could have been soooooo good! Don't get me wrong I think he was a terrific player for us, but he could have been so much more.

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14 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Spot on. Best post in this thread.

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44 minutes ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Fair enough, I agree that dribbling is a huge asset that can be used to counter the press but the thing with Baka is that even though he is a goodish dribbler, there will be plenty of instances during which he'll loose the ball trying to dribble too much or fail to dribble past the press. He is a good dribbler but is he that good a dribbler that we consistently rely on him to break the press via his dribbling against the best in Europe? I've got my doubts but if Conte thinks he's the man for our midfield then he is the man for our midfield.

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2 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

A lot of people don't know why we are okay with Bakayoko. 

Look at us this season, since we changed to a 3-4-3, we have beaten the smaller teams in the league with more ease than anyone else. We don't have any problem of creativity against smaller teams. 

But against the big teams, we were defensively opened up a lot against mancity, we were bullied by Tottenham’s pressing in two games against them especially in the first half. Pressing is our weakness. That is the problem we need to solve next season, because it will come in every game in the Champions League. We need more players in our back seven in the 3-4-3 to be able to cope with pressing. To be able to hold the ball under pressure, and dribble out and get the ball straight to hazard. Passing doesn't work as effectively as dribbling against high pressing, and fabregas being poor under pressure is proof of my point. I am not saying passing isn't important, I'm just saying when being pressed, the ability to dribble out of the jam is more important. The best of both worlds would have been Verratti, but it's unrealistic. 

What we need is to remove 2-3 players who are weak against pressing and too one footed (Matic, Alonso) for guys who can dribble past players (nainggolan/Bakayoko Alex.sandro/Mendy) and we'll start beating tottenhams/Liverpool/manutd press more often.

People who watched essien know how crucial this type of midfielders are in the team.  

Dribbling is undeniably vital but I would stop short of saying that it's more important than other parts of a player's make up when facing a press.

What is clear is that players need a full set of tools to be considered truly effective at top level. Dribbling is one of those tools for sure, and most of us seem to agree that it's a skill our squad is short on. It is not the only way to defeat the press however; it isn't even always the best way. Circumstances dictate what will be the most effective way to overcome the press but players choices are always dictated by their own capabilities. The more capable the player, the more chance he will select, and execute, the best option.

Essien, is a great example. People remember the surges with the ball but, in my opinion, tend to overlook other weaknesses in his game. I therefore have a lower opinion of the Bison than many Chelsea fans. I do not believe that our team will be at its best if Nemanja continues as first choice partner for Ngolo next season and, if there is to be a change, I hope the replacement is a better player than Ess was at his peak.*

*I recognise of course that this is just an opinion, and almost certainly a minority one to boot, but, in truth I don't believe that peak Essien was much better than any other version people might describe. Opponents sussed his limitations and exposed them. That's what happened, not any off-the-cliff-edge decline, as some believe.

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2 hours ago, DYC. said:

Agree. Yes, Baka can dribble but it's not like he can skip past challenges with great poise and skill, even in the tightest spaces a la Modric. He goes on straight rushes using his athleticism and size.

If Conte signs Baka, it's because he wants to shut down the centre of the pitch. Baka-Kante is a midfield duo that can cover a vast amount of space, recover possession and allow Chelsea to play with more space between the lines. Creativity and poise will have to come from the flanks so I hope in case Baka does join we'll see either Alonso and Moses, or even better both, replaced with superior players. With all due respect for PL sides like Tottenham and City but if you think facing them is difficult, Europe will be even harder. They got knocked out by Monaco and Gent (Genk?) and Arsenal were the recipients of a royal ass whooping.

Look at the midfields of the top sides in Europe. Vidal, Thiago, Xabi Alonso, Modric, Kroos, Iniesta, Busquets, Rakitic, Verratti, Motta, Rabiot, Pjanic, Marchisio. It will be interesting to see how Chelsea perform against good sides in Europe. Maybe Chelsea will become a second Atletico. I was surprised by the level reached in the current season so why not face another surprise in 17/18.

I would love for us to sign midfielder similar to the ones you mentioned at the end. That's the kind of player we need imo.

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3 hours ago, nono said:

I would love for us to sign midfielder similar to the ones you mentioned at the end. That's the kind of player we need imo.

They're all very different players. Sounds like you just want a name more than anything to me?

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On 29/03/2017 at 4:47 AM, The Skipper said:

People watch one game and that's it? Kante and Bakayoko are much better than what they showed today. Completely forgetting his performances against top teams, including one you mentioned in PSG. The way Deschamps set up his team was bad. Not utilising the talent there well at all. 

You want a technically brilliant CM who can be proactive and control the midfield. Who's available? Verratti? For what, 100m? Here's your desired CM being absolutely bossed by Bakayoko several times in the same game:

My overall point is, don't be so silly to judge a player off one game. The guy has potential, and has been showing it all season at Monaco, even in the CL, against the best in Europe. One average game.

He's not as good as you're making him out to be or you think he is and also my history in this thread shows I've watched him play several times. It depends, do we want to eat at the top table of the Champions league or what? Bakayoko is a rough diamond who could become a great player. He also lacks qualities (I believe)we need in that role, so it's not worth signing him based off of potential as it would have been if we got, say a Dahoud. It's either we sign a world class or close to world class player to partner Kante or we sign a deep-lying playmaker (who isn't a complete liability without the ball like Fabregas) in the mold of Dahoud. Unfortunately, Bakayoko is neither. 

If we sign Bakayoko as the main prospective partner to Kante, we're going to have very serious problems controlling the midfield against middling Premiership teams away from home. And let's not even talk about how we will get dominated by technically superior European teams in the CL. Is that what you want to see going forward? 

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22 hours ago, Mufassir08 said:

I disagree, Toure always had great technique and was incredibly hard to disposses. It's only that at City he got more freedom to show the more expansive side of his game.

Exactly. The comparisons to Toure are so lazy and completely unwarranted. Toure had way better technique and was much more talented than Bakayoko is an almost every way. If Bakayoko was even 80% of what Toure was talent wise, I'll bite Monaco's hands off to get him. 

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