The TC 'Avram Grant OUT' Topic

[ChicagoCFC 0]

In the 59th min. VS. Castle, Grant was sitting there lurking over Steve's shoulder as Clarke wrote match notes. He was acting as though he were cheating on an exam. It was hilarious. He has no clue. He has no side. He has nobodys respect. Grant will be the first manager in the history of footie to win a double then be sacked. I feel so sorry for him.

Avram, just save face and resign. It's not a good fit for you boss.

[Jon 18]

Avram Grant

I personally have yet to throw in my 2 cents on Avram Grant. I’ve done this intentionally as I tried to wait until the end of the season to pass any judgment. Grant has been under fire from the moment he accepted the position. Of course it didn’t help that he was taking Jose Mourinho’s place, that would be a tough act to follow for anyone. With Grant though, it’s been different.

[pluto 0]

In the 59th min. VS. Castle, Grant was sitting there lurking over Steve's shoulder as Clarke wrote match notes. He was acting as though he were cheating on an exam. It was hilarious. He has no clue. He has no side. He has nobodys respect. Grant will be the first manager in the history of footie to win a double then be sacked. I feel so sorry for him.

Avram, just save face and resign. It's not a good fit for you boss.

It's when you hear or see things like this about him that you realise exactly why all the sudden plaudits about Grant and what a great job he is doing is such a load of bull.

He has succeeded by just doggedly keeping on doing what his predecessor left for him - on a plate.

He has changed nothing, not training, not tactics, not formation - NOTHING.

He has obviously great support from Clarke and Ten Cate - take away that support, the players grit and determination and luck and he would be f**ked and he knows it deep down I swear.

There have been many more instances such as this that show you how little Grant is in control of anything of any consequence.

[Fulham Broadway 16,987]

It's when you hear or see things like this about him that you realise exactly why all the sudden plaudits about Grant and what a great job he is doing is such a load of bull.

He has succeeded by just doggedly keeping on doing what his predecessor left for him - on a plate.

He has changed nothing, not training, not tactics, not formation - NOTHING.

He has obviously great support from Clarke and Ten Cate - take away that support, the players grit and determination and luck and he would be f**ked and he knows it deep down I swear.

There have been many more instances such as this that show you how little Grant is in control of anything of any consequence.

Nailed on again Pluto. I just remember some of his Israeli counterparts talking about his appointment. About how his strength is ingratiating himself with the rich and powerful, and basically conning people that he knows about football. Bloke is a complete fraudster in my book, and has managed to con some fans now that he desreves some kind of credit.

[C'mon the chels 0]

I felt physically sick when the MH stand were chanting his name at Bolton. I can't believe that after all the chants of 'you don't know what you're doing' which mostly originated from the MH they suddenly change, how fickle?

Pluto was spot on, take away that determination the squad has and he would be absolutely fucked, I don't think even Clarke and Ten Cate would be able to save him in that situation. I'll top myself if we end up with him for another season, or Eriksson. If we get Eriksson I'll defo do myself in!

[warnie_666 1,081]

Fans are fickle!!! arent they.? Arsene Wenger a nobody comes to Arsenal, and wins ove the fans in couple of seasons by winning the league.

Fans had a huge banner "3 years and still shit" (or something like that)....A league title in 1992-93 has changed it all.

I wont be surprised, if Grant wins over more fans if are to win the Champion's League.

[pluto 0]

Fans are fickle!!! arent they.? Arsene Wenger a nobody comes to Arsenal, and wins ove the fans in couple of seasons by winning the league.

Fans had a huge banner "3 years and still shit" (or something like that)....A league title in 1992-93 has changed it all.

I wont be surprised, if Grant wins over more fans if are to win the Champion's League.

Trying to compare Arsene Wenger's arrival with Grant is very strange in my view.

When Wenger came to Arsenal he had already won the league in France and the French cup.

When he came to England in his second season he won the premiership and FA Cup, please don't compare Wenger to Grant - Grant got his job simply from whom he knew not from what he had won in Israel - a far weaker league I'm sure you would agree than anything in Europe.

It says it everything to me that Grant said this just the other day about his legacy to date at Chelsea:

(from Reuters)

Asked what he had done to improve on Mourinho's legacy since taking over from the Portuguese last September, Grant was coy, saying he respected what had gone before.

He kept what was good and made a few changes, he said, "because of the vision of the club. When you come in the middle of the year you don't have to come into it like an elephant into a shop and break everything."

If Grant tells me one more time that he "respects the past" and in the next moment slag off his predecessor as he often does - I'll explode.

I'll bet he gets "coy" alright when having to discuss with the media exactly what he has done to improve on Mourinho's legacy the answer as he knows is f**k all. In other words he knew nothing needed really changing, he didn't have a clue what to change even if it had and since it seemed to be running just fine he clung on and hoped the players would carry on and do his job motivating themselves because he certainly couldn't do it with his charisma bypass - and they have done the business for him, whilst he often literally scratches his head on the sidelines or sneaks peeks at Clarke's notes to see what he thinks should be done.

And another telling commentary from one of Chelsea's best players this season - Carvalho

"Teams don't change from one moment to the next,' Chelsea's player of the season told Portuguese TV on reaching the Champions League final. 'José Mourinho's philosophy is a bit different from Avram Grant's, but the players are the same, and most of the players here were chosen by Mourinho. I don't think Mourinho wants that credit, but we've got a solid, compact group with lots of qualities and he chose the players.'

And more crap from our new "saviour" before the Newcastle match:

"I just need to do my job and be professional as I came here on a mission," he said. "The club was a good club but on the way down. Now we are on the right way.

"It is very exciting when you are creating something, especially at Chelsea. When we lost in the Cup it was like a funeral. It is a big challenge for me and one that makes me happy. We have fantastic players and fantastic staff. We are also playing good football, exciting football."

So there you have it, Grant is convincing himself and anyone else who cares to listen to what he says rather than see what is clearly in front of them that the club were on their way down and out when he was in charge and he Avram Grant has waved his magic wand and got Mourinho's team back to where they belong.

Ballack meanwhile hardly refutes the idea either:

(The Guardian)

Can a team be so strong it emerges victorious in spite of its manager rather than because of him? When Michael Ballack was recently asked that question about Grant's Chelsea, he did not refute the theory. 'Is that possible?' Ballack said. 'The team certainly has enough class.'

So whilst Grant wallows in his apparent brilliance at rescuing the team from the incompentent hell that was Mourinho, two of his key men tells the media after getting through to the CL which could save Grant's ever lucky arse a totally different and probably the true story.

In truth Grant has "created" nothing.

Has he created our team spirit? No.

Has he created our football philosphy? No.

Has he developed and brought on the likes of Drogba, Carvalho, Cole, Sheva, Terry, Lampard? No.

Has he created our never say die attitude? No.

Has he changed the training the players do? No.

Has he changed the tactics remarkably from what went before? No.

Has he brought in a whole host of new players that have added immeasurably to our squad? No.

Does he apparently inspire and motivate? Have the players raved about Grant as they did Mourinho for his motivational abilities? No.

So there you go, Grant in all his self satisfied smugness tells you how wonderfully he has done with rescuing this team from the ruination of Mourinho's legacy whilst using that self same legacy to try to win the won trophy that will take him to exultation and worldwide fame as a supposed great coach.

Irony is not the word for it, the man should have the good grace to be embarrassed but I don't think he is capable of it.

And for those that insist that Grant's success this year is based on his own brilliance and worth and has nothing to do with what was left very conveniently for him to pick up and run with - well they should be embarrassed too.

Edited May 14, 2008 by pluto

[C'mon the chels 0]

Trying to compare Arsene Wenger's arrival with Grant is very strange in my view.

When Wenger came to Arsenal he had already won the league in France and the French cup.

When he came to England in his second season he won the premiership and FA Cup, please don't compare Wenger to Grant - Grant got his job simply from whom he knew not from what he had won in Israel - a far weaker league I'm sure you would agree than anything in Europe.

It says it everything to me that Grant said this just the other day about his legacy to date at Chelsea:

(from Reuters)

If Grant tells me one more time that he "respects the past" and in the next moment slag off his predecessor as he often does - I'll explode.

I'll bet he gets "coy" alright when having to discuss with the media exactly what he has done to improve on Mourinho's legacy the answer as he knows is f**k all. In other words he knew nothing needed really changing, he didn't have a clue what to change even if it had and since it seemed to be running just fine he clung on and hoped the players would carry on and do his job motivating themselves because he certainly couldn't do it with his charisma bypass - and they have done the business for him, whilst he often literally scratches his head on the sidelines or sneaks peeks at Clarke's notes to see what he thinks should be done.

And another telling commentary from one of Chelsea's best players this season - Carvalho

And more crap from our new "saviour" before the Newcastle match:

So there you have it, Grant is convincing himself and anyone else who cares to listen to what he says rather than see what is clearly in front of them that the club were on their way down and out when he was in charge and he Avram Grant has waved his magic wand and got Mourinho's team back to where they belong.

Ballack meanwhile hardly refutes the idea either:

(The Guardian)

So whilst Grant wallows in his apparent brilliance at rescuing the team from the incompentent hell that was Mourinho, two of his key men tells the media after getting through to the CL which could save Grant's ever lucky arse a totally different and probably the true story.

In truth Grant has "created" nothing.

Has he created our team spirit? No.

Has he created our football philosphy? No.

Has he developed and brought on the likes of Drogba, Carvalho, Cole, Sheva, Terry, Lampard? No.

Has he created our never say die attitude? No.

Has he changed the training the players do? No.

Has he changed the tactics remarkably from what went before? No.

Has he brought in a whole host of new players that have added immeasurably to our squad? No.

Does he apparently inspire and motivate? Have the players raved about Grant as they did Mourinho for his motivational abilities? No.

So there you go, Grant in all his self satisfied smugness tells you how wonderfully he has done with rescuing this team from the ruination of Mourinho's legacy whilst using that self same legacy to try to win the won trophy that will take him to exultation and worldwide fame as a supposed great coach.

Irony is not the word for it, the man should have the good grace to be embarrassed but I don't think he is capable of it.

And for those that insist that Grant's success this year is based on his own brilliance and worth and has nothing to do with what was left very conveniently for him to pick up and run with - well they should be embarrassed too.

Someone's been thinking hard, but well said I don't think there can be any argument.

[MadMick.C.F.C 0]

I feel really sorry for Avram.

O.k he lost out to Spurs in the Carling Cup Final.

Knocked out of the F.A.Cup by Barnsley.(I was at this game,totally disgusted by the chants)

With the prem trophy within his grasp,taken away fairly by Man Utd.

The Champion`s League Final next Wednesday(even the special one could not achieve that)Avram has taken Chelsea to Moscow.

C`mon Avram`s Blue & White Army.

[C'mon the chels 0]

I feel really sorry for Avram.

O.k he lost out to Spurs in the Carling Cup Final.

Knocked out of the F.A.Cup by Barnsley.(I was at this game,totally disgusted by the chants)

With the prem trophy within his grasp,taken away fairly by Man Utd.

The Champion`s League Final next Wednesday(even the special one could not achieve that)Avram has taken Chelsea to Moscow.

C`mon Avram`s Blue & White Army.

I would never condone chanting hateful things at Grant and never have done it myself, and I never sat there once this season chanting Jose's name. Football isn't as simple as Avram Grant beat Liverpool in a Champions League semi final and Jose couldn't therefore Grant is a better manager. There is no doubt in my mind that Jose would have taken us to a Champions League final at some point, we know he could do it as he won the thing at Porto, but being successful in football means having a little bit of luck and the luck Jose needed was to not come up against Liverpool in the Champions league as he appeared to have a specific problem beating them!

[Fulham Broadway 16,987]

He seemed to spend a lot of energy pre match, psyching out Rafa and flinging insults. OK that may deflect from any pressure on the players, but often played into Liverpools hands -just as Rafas comments about Drogba did.

Grant ;. As useful as one of those team mascots imo.

1. Unqualified, and appointed because of being sycophantic and ingratiating himself with Abramovich.

2. Has demonstrated no apparent tactical skills and just seems so untrustworthy - leeching off the knowledge and accomplishments of others -would you buy a car off the cunt ? I just get fucking angry feeling that we could be doing better.

[bombayblue™ 55]

Fans are fickle!!! arent they.? Arsene Wenger a nobody comes to Arsenal, and wins ove the fans in couple of seasons by winning the league.

Fans had a huge banner "3 years and still shit" (or something like that)....A league title in 1992-93 has changed it all.

I wont be surprised, if Grant wins over more fans if are to win the Champion's League.

i would appreciate if he left a mark on the team, can you pinpoint one thing in this team that tell's you it's grant's team..

and now i'm so pissed on him that even if we won the CL the only people i'll be giving credit is clarke and ten cate..

[Sunburn 0]

Grant = out

I won't talk too much about Jose because that is another issue. But with regards to Grant we must remember a few simple things:

1) how he got the job

2) his previous experience

3) his performance

1) - how he got the job still burns me up...jose leaving in a painful divorce was always obvious but it seems strange that we hire a director of football who is a friend of the owner, within 2 months jose is gone and said director takes over - and then we don't fill the directors position? That has snake written all over it.

2) - he doesn't have the experience of a wenger or other top managers who were relative unknowns. Does he deserve a chance - sure but not at a top club like Chelsea and the position should be awarded on past success and merit

3) - he has made some big time blunders tactically and is a terrible motivator. At this level - probably the 2 most important qualities a manager can possess.

I'm also disgusted on how he has dismissed Jose's work so easily. A football team over 3 years is never going to always sail smooth - but it did for the most part with Jose - and when Jose hit a rough patch it was understandable with guys like Avram upsetting the apple cart.

However he does deserve some credit for the following and to show that I don't always have the blue glasses pulled down:

1) he did steady a sinking ship - even if he is the one who blew the hole in the stern

2) he has learned from some of his mistakes tactically

3) the press has decided not to pick on us so much because they can't get anything out of the lifeless Grant - i guess thats a skill

I would even go as far as saying some of our football the last quarter of the season has been slick - ten cate perhaps? - ballack has certainly played better with cate here - avram was kidding himself about beautiful football at anytime before that - but at the same time we have failed more often to shut teams down like we use to under jose...

So having said all that....and even if we do win the CL...

Avram = out

[DavidEU 2,023]

I feel really sorry for Avram.

Knocked out of the F.A.Cup by Barnsley.(I was at this game,totally disgusted by the chants)

You text me after the game mate, saying Avram out!

[warnie_666 1,081]

i would appreciate if he left a mark on the team, can you pinpoint one thing in this team that tell's you it's grant's team..

HE hasnt even had one complete season to leave a mark. I mean...you expect him to take the team mid season, and change the whole system and style? You saw what happened to bolton when Sammy Lee tried to change the style mid season and saw how they managed to keep thmselves up when megson stuck to the good old style of Bolton under Big Sam.

Bernd Schuster, has stuck to the same style and formation as that of Capello. The only difference being couple of players in the first team.

The difference between Jose Mourinho and Grant could be seen in the games against Liverpool and Man Utd.

And I hope he sticks to it and attack them right from the word GO!!!

[C'mon the chels 0]

HE hasnt even had one complete season to leave a mark. I mean...you expect him to take the team mid season, and change the whole system and style? You saw what happened to bolton when Sammy Lee tried to change the style mid season and saw how they managed to keep thmselves up when megson stuck to the good old style of Bolton under Big Sam.

Bernd Schuster, has stuck to the same style and formation as that of Capello. The only difference being couple of players in the first team.

The difference between Jose Mourinho and Grant could be seen in the games against Liverpool and Man Utd.

And I hope he sticks to it and attack them right from the word GO!!!

Oh come on Warnie, for the two times you can say the difference between the two is two games against Man utd and Liverpool anyone in their right mind can pick 10 against smaller clubs that never stood a chance against us with Jose. And anyway we had a good record against UTD under Mourinho so I don't see how that game is relevant. The only game anyone can pick out as us doing better in under Grant is the Liverpool CL match and like I said for that one game I could probably sit here and pull 10 off the top of my head where we've done worse.

[warnie_666 1,081]

Oh come on Warnie, for the two times you can say the difference between the two is two games against Man utd and Liverpool anyone in their right mind can pick 10 against smaller clubs that never stood a chance against us with Jose. And anyway we had a good record against UTD under Mourinho so I don't see how that game is relevant. The only game anyone can pick out as us doing better in under Grant is the Liverpool CL match and like I said for that one game I could probably sit here and pull 10 off the top of my head where we've done worse.

Well the approach that we had towards the two games is what I am talking about. Blitz them right from the beginning. Jose never did it. In fact, The last time we won a game against the big 4 before the Arsenal Match was in september 2006. 1-0 against Pool.

The worst I could think of was our game against Liverpool in 2005. The first leg at Bridge, and Jose chooses to play safe and boring football instead of going all out and beating them. His this very approach has cost us the semi finals against Liverpool twice in UCL and twice in Cups.

[pluto 0]

HE hasnt even had one complete season to leave a mark. I mean...you expect him to take the team mid season, and change the whole system and style? You saw what happened to bolton when Sammy Lee tried to change the style mid season and saw how they managed to keep thmselves up when megson stuck to the good old style of Bolton under Big Sam.

Bernd Schuster, has stuck to the same style and formation as that of Capello. The only difference being couple of players in the first team.

The difference between Jose Mourinho and Grant could be seen in the games against Liverpool and Man Utd.

And I hope he sticks to it and attack them right from the word GO!!!

So that's two games out of what 60 odd competitive games so far this season where apparently we have shown some true signs of "Grantness" if that's the word.

Ho hum.

I'd be quite happy with Grant if he had been honest from the start and as good as said "look I'm not going to really change f**k all this year because I want the team to keep going on as they are, it aint really broke and I'll do my own thing next season okay?".

That attitude I could respect.

I can't respect someone who keeps telling me about the great football we keep playing, the lack of the "long ball", the quick and slick complicated passing movements we now do that never happened before, the "better ball rentention" and "combinations" whilst at the same time telling me he "respects the past" when he clearly can't resist at every available opportunity laying blame on Mourinho for everything from losing the league to just about escaping unscathed in the CL campaign, I'd just love to know whom will get the flalk next season when Mourinho tainting of Grant's sterling work will be totally gone.

Sure changing nothing was the smart move no gripe with you there but the trouble is Grant just has to keep trying to justify his existence by pretending he is actively changing the team when clearly he isn't, he has yet to really go through a bad patch when he is not getting results like Jose started to do through the latter part of his reign and see how he likes it. At least he wont have a vulture circling in the background waiting for his job like Grant did to Mourinho.

Whilst I can't really stomach the idea of Grant actually being lauded as some kind of genius based on what little he has actively contributed to the team to date, equally I condemn any attacks on his nationality or religion, I also get embarrassed to see some fans chanting Jose's name at games or booing Grant - that's unfair and really of little help to anyone - Jose aint coming back and we are stuck with Grant for what seems like the forseeable future.

Edited May 15, 2008 by pluto