Superblue

Thanks for this @Vesper - so by the looks of things City are the first team in this circumstance to avoid a ban? I can understand differing punishments for more and less severe cases but if FIFA have historically always dished out some form of transfer ban (even if it was for one window as opposed to two) then it shows an incredibly unjust ruling. Whether it's one player or a hundred, the crime has still been committed.

@Vesper you seem to be 'in the know' with these sorts of things. Forget the appeals, etc after CAS what were the original punishments handed out by FIFA for the Spanish clubs and how many players were they found guilty with regards to the breaches? And also I'm not sure if there are any cases beyond the high profile clubs - has anyone before City avoided a ban from FIFA for this breach before?

I see City have managed to get away with just a small fine. FIFA are the most corrupt organisation going.

Is there any news on who actually travelled for the game?

Because after a bright start the first sniff of momentum for United and encouragement for the fans was from Zouma's misplaced pass in his own box and then just minutes later his rash tackle for the penalty. He never looked comfortable after this both defensively and on the ball. Christensen wasn't impressive and was obviously part of the defence as a whole which struggled but he didn't make glaring and schoolboy errors which put us massively on the back foot and/or led to goals from what I can remember.

Pulisic is still a 20 year old though with no experience of English football. The Giroud/Tammy argument is very debatable because I think it is now obvious already that Lampard wants his team to press high and first half we got a lot of joy winning the ball in good areas. Would this have been the case with a much less mobile striker pressing from the front? And are you seriously suggesting we should have played Alonso centre midfield or Bakayoko instead of Kovacic and/or Jorginho?!

Made progress, but it was clearly there "achilles heel" and would continue to hold them back competing for the top trophies, especially the consistency needed for the Premier League. The season before last they limped into the top 4 ahead of us. Van Dijk has elevated every single one of those defenders. I agree that there needs to be more coaching for our defensive shape and that, coupled with time and patience should see improvement. But we also need to find someone capable of organising and leading that defence whether internally or eventually through the transfer market.

It's very easy to forget how poor Klopp's Liverpool were defensively for (3 years?) before they brought Van Dijk (and Alisson to a lesser extent). Lampard doesn't have the luxury of entering the market and needs to find our equivalent of Van Dijk to lead, marshall and bring composure to that defence (which I'm sure this season will be Rudiger). Otherwise he may have to wait to get the right player in there until next summer and as a result adapt to the cards he's been dealt a little. Luckily we're not looking at yesterday's game with our strongest possible team out thinking how can this situation be improved. There are players to come back who can make a big difference potentially to the defensive aspect of our game (Kante, Rudiger, Reece James, possibly even Willian), and hopefully that change in personnel will make a difference when they're back.

Agree, there are always going to be issues with completely changing our playing style but the mentality has to improve with regards to being able to adapt in-game. After losing to City 6-0 we went and held them through 120 minutes in the cup final a week later which is an example that these players are capable of defending properly. However we set up from the start to play in that way, as opposed to changing in-game which does seem to be a problem for us. United at home and Spurs away last season were other clear examples, we just didn't get thrashed on the result. We kept playing one way and it was simply playing to the strengths of the opposition leaving us open to get ripped apart. Liverpool and City don't have all game, every game in complete control. Opposition will get periods of the game where they create chances and gain momentum. In that moment, Liverpool and City are both organised enough to soak up that pressure. It is what we need to learn and quickly and yesterday was a perfect example of this. In the past this would have been where someone like Terry or Lampard would have come into play because they would have made it clear to the team to dig in for 5-10 minutes in order to regain the momentum and composure to our play. If nobody on the pitch is capable of stepping up and doing that, Lampard must make sure from the touchline that message is put across to the team in moments when needed.

I certainly see where the optimism is coming from. He stood out at youth level and although all I've seen is highlights packages, you only need to see Wigan fan's viewpoint of how good he is. I would tend to agree with you by the way, I think it's more important that he plays at right back where he can offer an additional attacking outlet. Liverpool and Man City have shown how important the full backs are as a source of chance creation and I think the potential Reece James has in that right back position is too much to not utilise. I still have faith in Christensen and that Lampard can get the best out of him again by restoring his confidence as a first choice player. He's comfortable on the ball and is deceptively quick also, I feel everything holding him back currently is mental and Lampard needs to bring that belief back out in him that he can be a top, classy defender as the foil to Rudiger who needs to continue to grow into a dominant and leadership role. Lampard wanting to play the way we did yesterday with a high line and a high press - add Reece James, Rudiger and Kante into that side and I do believe it will make a big difference to how much more solid and successful that can be.

This is exactly the problem for Zouma. What Chelsea fans remember is a promising centre back before his injury when he was under Mourinho's management and as a result was protected under a conservative manager. It is easily forgotten too that his run in the team coincided with the mid table season we had (not that I'm blaming Zouma for that). His loan spell at Stoke went pretty well despite them getting relegated and he obviously had a good season last year at Everton but again he's not being expected to play in an expansive way with a high defensive line. The games I saw last year at Everton where he actually looked good were against big teams like Liverpool and United where they were sitting back and soaking up pressure. One trait Zouma had even before his injury was his positioning was always a weakness but he had an uncanny ability to get back extremely quickly and had one of the best recovery tackles I've probably ever seen but I do think he's lost some of his athleticism and acceleration after his injury and the more space in behind him the harder that recovery can become.

At least short term (because the market isn't available most likely until next summer) which do you think is the best option - Reece at right back and more than likely Christensen with Rudiger (unless you think there is a better option than Christensen), or Azpi at right and Reece with Rudiger?

The subject of youth and inexperience is an easy stick to beat Lampard with when it doesn't work out but what message does it send out to them otherwise - "I've said you're going to be important members of this squad this season but you're either not good enough or not ready to play in the big games"? How many people were complaining about Sarri not giving CHO opportunities early last season despite a strong pre season? Pre season isn't just about fitness but it should also be an opportunity for young players or those on the fringes to stake a claim for a place in the team. Mason Mount was excellent in pre season, so why shouldn't he be rewarded by Lampard with a start at Old Trafford? Tammy Abraham a similar situation. Lampard has already said if you want to play you're going to have to train hard and play well consistently because there won't be any favourites. In the first game he's already proven that it isn't just lip service and in the long term it will breed competition amongst the squad. And to be honest at present, I only see Kepa, Rudiger and Kante who are as good as 'locks' for the team. Every other position I believe is up for grabs and experience, whilst shouldn't be completely ignored, should not be the deciding factor in team selection.

Heard Sam Allardyce on the radio this morning and whilst I'm not his biggest fan, I agree with him that Chelsea were very naive when we went 2-0 down. We opened up way too quickly and started trying to chase the game. I alluded to this very point in a post yesterday but there has to be a lesson learned there for Lampard and the players that in a situation like that, the team needs to regroup and stay compact for 10-15 minutes. 2-0 is not a game clinching scoreline and all it would have taken would have been a goal a few minutes from time to possibly grab a point. We let United take the game away from us completely in the last half hour and that isn't just tactical or individual mistakes, that's about having the right mentality (and experience after games like yesterday) to know when to dig in, not take risks and contain for a few minutes to stem any flow of momentum the opposition are building up.

I'm very interested to see what Lampard does with the defence moving forward. This isn't just a Lampard problem, Sarri had the same issues last year - we rode our luck so much early in the season until Spurs ripped us apart and then we had the drubbings off City and Bournemouth. After that Sarri allowed the defence to sit deeper and not play as much of a high line and high press. What that did however was make us even more boring and slower in our build up play because we were naturally starting much deeper. If Lampard is going to play the way he wants to play then we will have to play with a high defensive line because the team needs to press high as one, there cannot be gaps between the 4 defenders, 2 midfielders and 4 attackers because we'll get brutally exposed as the season wears on. I can accept there will be some teething problems and some chastening experiences against some of the big teams potentially this season but we cannot let lesser teams down the league start taking advantage too.

The reasons I pointed out. I'm not debating over some of the things he said regarding our defensive structure and they are serious flaws that Lampard needs to address but there's always an agenda with him. The Luke Shaw comment really wound me up and I couldn't care less about Luke Shaw. If anything it shows just how out of tune Mourinho is with the ability to man manage this new generation of players. If they had got Mourinho at the end of his first Chelsea spell he would have been so energetic and witty, but now he comes across old, boring and uninspiring. And to think a month or two with Souness could make him even worse!

The mistakes for the first goal were very poor and the second goal was not well defended either, particularly as United created it from a bad pass on a counter. But conceding the third goal so quickly was desperately naive and our play from there was also overall poor. That is where some of this team will need to learn. Like you said that 2-0 can happen, but even then you stay in the game and keep it tight for the next 10-15 minutes. Then once you get to the last 10-15 minutes you push again because a late goal with a few minutes to go suddenly puts the doubts on United and anything can happen. But conceding again straight away completely killed the game and the last half hour from our perspective showed that.

It's easy to say the youth are good enough and then entirely a different level to have the faith in playing them. This is the same Mourinho who said he'd be a failure if the current crop of Chelsea youngsters at the time didn't break through. Great comment at the start of his reign, quickly forgotten within a couple of months when he's soon moaning about squad deficiencies.

Separate point but anybody watching the Sky Sports coverage over here in the UK today will have experienced the punditry of Jose Mourinho. I personally think it's a big negative for Sky Sports bringing him in. He's still clearly salty that at present nobody wants to touch him and whilst he has always been arrogant, that arrogance over time has evolved from cheeky to bitter, almost having to justify that he's still a good manager. I don't need to be switching on Sky Sports to watch any more self promotion having slept through Jamie Redknapp's shite punditry for what feels like decades. I read an article earlier in the week where he suggested Lampard had no problems because we needed a striker and we had Tammy Abraham to bring in, and then criticises the decision to play him today. The dig at Luke Shaw at half time too was utterly pathetic and 'Uncle Rafa' was childish. It's embarrassing that the likes of Souness, Neville and Carragher don't have the balls to go against anything he says. I'll always appreciate what he did at Chelsea but it doesn't stop him being an extremely unlikable prick.

There's definitely a role still to play for Azpi and maybe I just have a loyal nature myself but I do believe a bit of leeway can and should be afforded for players who have built up a significant amount of credit through the years with great performances, attitude, etc. I agree that I'm itching to see Reece James back to full fitness and what he can offer us. But even if James can step up and become first choice, Azpi will still be an important and versatile member of the squad.

I think if today was an indicator for what Lampard wants then the one that'll struggle and I think be phased out through the season is actually Giroud. Abraham and Batshuayi are far more mobile and energetic to comply with the pressing that Lampard will require. I would have been unsure about Batshuayi in this role too previously but I saw enough in pre season to suggest that he would be willing to put the hard yards in pressing from the front. I think he'll get his opportunities sooner rather than later.

Not expecting it, but it would be such a 'Chelsea thing' to go and find a way of winning this match off the back of such a defeat.

If Mount didn't play today, then Pulisic would have so the idea of established starters doesn't really hold up for that particular example because both are young and relatively inexperienced. The only other 'established starters' I can assume is Alonso and Giroud (taking the assumption that Kante isn't fully fit). For me, Emerson was one of the better players and I'm more than happy if he establishes himself first choice this season and the Tammy/Giroud debate is a difficult one. There were times when Tammy gave the ball away cheaply but the idea that Giroud doesn't do that quite a bit too is a bit of a myth in itself. I can completely see why Lampard started Tammy who is far more mobile and energetic and I do feel in the first half the move was justified because we put the United defence under quite a bit of pressure and had some good joy winning the ball back high up the pitch and Tammy was part of that pressure. The only other options for Lampard with the squad at his disposal today was to play Tomori for Zouma which would have meant being even more inexperienced and playing Kante from the start. However Kante likely wouldn't have played the full 90 minutes and we were well in the game until we conceded the second in the 64th minute anyway and whilst they clearly posed a threat on the counter they had been contained pretty well up to that point.

Had a chance to digest the game and there are surprisingly a lot of positives to take from a 4-0 defeat but some serious defensive flaws that need to be sorted out yesterday. I was impressed with the overall application in our attacking play. We dominated much of the first hour at Old Trafford in the first game of the season, getting the crowd quiet and anxious very early on. I would have expected United to be the team to come out the blocks early at home and it is testament to Lampard's work in pre season and confidence in our players to be confident enough to do that in our first game. We're clearly talking fine margins in the first half, two times we hit the post, a couple of missed opportunities with the wrong final ball and of course the mistakes that gave United the penalty. Pedro giving the ball away in the middle of the pitch was really poor and then Zouma's rashness in the tackle. He had the situation under control because Rashford would have had to do something to get on the outside of him and still use his left foot and cutting inside was running straight back into Zouma and traffic tracking back. He just panicked and it was really poor. The poor pass he played a couple of minutes before in his own box shredded his confidence and he never recovered from that all game. However that half we could have easily been 2 or 3 goals up and being a goal down to United the writing was on the wall in the second half. It played into their strength's perfectly with the pace they have up the pitch and we got punished for that. Probably the most disappointing part of the game was I feel the more experienced players didn't perform. Pedro will always work hard but he gave some really poor balls away in the middle of the pitch, Azpilicueta struggled at both ends and Zouma (who should be a far more experienced and polished defender currently than Christensen) buckled under the pressure. The younger players didn't set the world alight but they certainly didn't disgrace themselves. Mount has got bundles of energy and he's a very tidy player, particularly in tight spaces. His decision making in the final third needs to improve but that needs not just experience but also time adapting to playing with different players and their movements. I also thought Tammy Abraham played pretty well too today and I'm not sure why so many are already writing him off. If his shot off the post screamed in those first 5 minutes I'm pretty sure he'd be a nailed on starter for the rest of the season in most peoples eyes. For me he pressed well and was lively and energetic. If Lampard wants to play in this way moving forward then I cannot see Giroud playing much because he just isn't mobile and quick enough to do that. There is a rawness and inconsistency to some of his play - in some passages of play he held the ball up well or linked up with others around him and in other passages he gave the ball away way too easily. Again it's something we're going to have to deal with by bringing young players in that they will suffer from consistency early on and it shouldn't be forgotten that it's rather the baptism of fire playing United away for them. Having said all of that the mistakes need to stop being made. Even though the threat was there, up until the second goal United barely created anything and any sniffs of counter attacks were dealt with pretty well. But the second and third goals showed how easy you can get cut open against that threat. The defence needs to be sorted out and its one area of the pitch Lampard shouldn't be tinkering with too much unless there are injuries or suspensions, or cup games. The back four needs to be settled and gain experience working with each other. I could honestly see him settling on a back four of James, Christensen, Rudiger and Emerson once everyone is fit but it would require Rudiger stepping up to lead the back line. He definitely has the character to do this from what I've seen since he's been here but there is a difference becoming the 'senior' defender. Lamps after the game specifically said he expects Reece James to play a big part this season so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that Azpi starts being phased out or heavily rotated. However, Lampard needs to get more out of the players he has now. Even with Rudiger and Kante coming back, they won't be match fit and it will take them time and some games to get to where they should be expected to be. Kante looked very rusty when he came on today so it's not a given that the two can just slot back in immediately and everything is all good again. The other thing to note is the last 30 minutes we still toiled but ran out of gas. The quickfire second and third goals would help with that to deflate the team but there also needs to be a bit of experience that we cannot play in a relentless, frenetic tempo all game every game. Liverpool early days under Klopp used to be the same and were very inconsistent, it will take some time and patience but we need to learn early that at stages of the game we need to manage a bit better and just regain a bit of energy.

Kovacic and Jorginho have to be tactically astute enough to deal with United on the counter which is likely how they'll play with the pace in their attack. Big game today for Barkley, Mount and Abraham. There's question marks over whether we have enough goals in our attack this season and all 3 could play big roles so hopefully they can show today what we can expect.