DCS1984

Bahrian, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Canada, France, Israel, Netherlands and US for their entire organization. The European Union, all 28 countries have the military wing as a terrorist organization. What part of Hezbollah does the terror? Think about it, the only reason the whole organization isn't on the terrorist list is they can actually negotiate with someone when problems occur without being hit with the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" accusation. You know it doesn't work like that internationally and you are taking a terrorist or a party with military capabilities and put them on the same level as a state. Israel, the UK and the US are all signatures to the Geneva convention. Hammas, Hezbollah are not. Those countries are responsible for the actions they take and can be made accountable through due process. While there is no process for Hamas at all, who can put rockets in schools and hospitals etc while the Israeli's can't, they have to follow the rules of warfare. I doubt a 'rogue' ISIS was in anyone's plans but you'll still have to prove that this was the purpose of the American government and not just conjecture..... That isn't true in 1993, 1996 or 2006 there was no state of war between Lebanon and Israel at all. Each time was it Israeli's firing into Lebanon to kick the conflict off? Was it a strike by the Lebanese airforce/army/navy on Israeli targets that started it? No it was attacks by a group that started the conflict not states. Also the creation of a military state? Why do you think Israel is a "military" as you call it? What happened in 1948, who refused to the Israeli's? It's terrible what's happening in the Gaza Strip no-one can deny this. The quote you have used from Dov Weissglass who isn't an Israeli officer but a business man with close links to the old Ariel Sharon government. "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." It is in reference to a carrot and stick approach to stop the attacks on Israel not a planned genocide. However he has always denied saying this. There are Muslim/Christian/Jewish only faith schools here in the UK too. There is Athletic Bilbao that only allows Basques to play for them. The Jew only roads, I can believe that being in Palestine with the checkpoints. I'm surprised you have mentioned the giant wall they have built too, which is a disgrace. Sadly it does seem that the previous attempts at Civil disobedience are quickly nipped in the bud so to say by Israeli capturing of their leaders. However this happened to the Congress Party too and they managed to keep the protests going non-violently. Imagine how the world would react to a complete strike by Palestinians rather than isolated attacks. It's not Hamas that should be firing these rockets, they are the government of Palestine now and should be working through diplomatic channels to attempt for however long it takes to resolve this with the Israelis. Again, the rockets kill innocent people and as you say are not highly accurate or military targets, my argument is these people firing the rockets have no right to aim inaccurate rockets from highly populated civilan areas into highly populated civilian areas. It's a crime Choulo and these people are committing murder not warfare. True closing the Temple mount is in violation of the 1994 treaty as Jordan is the holder of the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem also Jew's can't pray at the Temple mount until the 3rd Temple is built. That obviously would require the demolition of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Asqa Mosque which well would probably cause World War 3 Choulo I'm talking about the higher reasoning behind many (not all) of the suicide bombings not the secular, earthly ones. How do you protect your loved ones by blowing up a cafe? All you do is commit murder. Maybe.... one day. You have to hope/pray.

Hi everyone I'd just like to make you aware of my new book on our Champions League winning season is out on Amazon and other booksites. You may have read about it on our Facebook page but I just got permission to bring it to your attention on the forums too Again many thanks to Alex, Steve and Choulo for their help. http://www.amazon.co...pheonix project So far it has been received with good reviews from the posters I know that have bought it. The book has at least 486 pages of comment, interviews and match reports to bring back memories of what looked like a season of despair into the greatest cup win in our history! This is the only complete season review on Amazon for any Chelsea season, if it starts to sell better, I'd like to complete a back history of our seasons for our fans to read. So if you have any requests please feel free. Please give the preview a read and let me know what you think of it. If you do buy it please leave a review, good or bad. Many thanks David

Firstly, it wasn't meant as a provocation at all. Hezbollah are classified as a terrorist group in the vast majority of countries worldwide, you may not agree with it's description as one which is up to you. A political movement that uses terror as a weapon to achieve its goals - Terror e.g rocket attacks, suicide bombers against civilian targets. Can you argue that Hezbollah haven't used these tactics against Israel? You'll have to be clear on what you mean by the new middle east that was supposed to be created by America and possibly proxy Israel, I assume in 2006. What war, there is no declared war between Israel and Palestine or Lebanon in international politics. You may turn around and call naive but it's true. There is no war between these countries. There is however agents or groups within the countries causing these events. This a critical difference between say a war between France and Germany where there are Governments to negotiate with. There should be no "balance of terror". As for a better way, Israel like the British Empire in India/Pakistan/Bangledesh is a democracy, could you not try Civil disobedience? At least we somewhat agree on something but still Rocket Launching is not some kind of high precision targeting system that you believe it to be. The majority are these -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket No one in their right mind believes these are high precision rockets. Since 2001, there has been 25207 rockets fired into Israel. Think about that for a second, do you believe these are all aimed at military targets? I am always interested in Muslim's believe about the Dome of the Rock and Al-Asqa mosque within the context of the night journey but it seems from you answers, you are not a Muslim (if you are sorry ) On the Al-Asqa mosque, yeah some Israeli's do want to open up the mount for themselves which has been denied since a short time in 618-20 c when the Persians controlled Jerusalem. Of course, I'll try to. What I am arguing is an elaboration on your point that you believed that the suicide bombers were doing it in a hope that it would bring their children or relatives a better life. While I was arguing the highier rationalization was the Shahid martyrdom philosophy that drove them too in a way that none of the other world religions can do. The other two Abrahamic Faiths have no such comparable (maybe Samson in the Philistine temple perhaps) to the "great reward" 4.74, the "trade" of your life in sacrifice to escape hell and enter the Garden (of eden) in 61:10-12 and the stories of Houri's in heaven for Martyrs etc which we can go into more detail if you want. It is not man made rewards that drive some of these people but god given rewards. So do you believe that the conflict could/or would have been solved by a two state system? Because I wish I could see it happen but I doubt it

True the conflict wasn't a conflict between the state of Israel and the state of Lebanon. The problem is it was a conflict between a state and a terrorist group acting with impunity in southern Lebanon. Remember there was never a state of war between Lebanon and Israel. The two captured soldiers was just the lightening of the fuse of the bomb ticking between the two groups. You are taking Condoleezza Rice's statement out of context what she is explaining is that the conflict will hopefully lead to an end to terrorist groups attacking sovereign nations pushing forward to a new middle east which of course hasn't happened. You believe that the aim of the people that fire the rockets is to trigger alarms and scare people? Really? If one gets through the Iron dome then what? People will die. You are still advocating the murder of innocent people by people firing rockets miles away. That is true, there is at present time no way for the Palestinian's to affect the Israeli state's existence but out of interest what do you think would happen if they could? No you achieve nothing but death, the death of people who the people with the guns and machete's had no right to take yesterday. Out of you interest what is your position on the Al - Aqsa in Islam and why you believe the Jew's shouldn't be allowed to worship at the temple mount? Again I didn't say they were just dying for what they believed is the greater good, I was arguing that the higher rationale was the acceptance of Shahid (as shown by the hadith of Muhammad) as an form of warfare that is completely unacceptable in Judaism and Christianity. Wow, that's a higher goal than I can ever believe happen in my lifetime Out of interest, may I ask what faith you are? Perhaps we should rename this the Politics and religions of the middle east thread

dUMB you have continually argued from the Palestinian "side" have you tried to put an argument together for the Israeli side? The information you have posted so far has mainly came from Palestinian sources but perhaps you should take a look at their sources Muslims aren't a race, they are individual people who follow a faith. If Mr.Excalibur brings up a un-emotional (though it can be so hard with what's going on) point with the correct quotations and references to back them up hopefully they can be responded to by who-ever feels free to respond

If Matic ever got injured, then Mikel would have to step in to that role. After Mikel there is only Ake who looks good but still needs time. Well there is Ramires but it's not really his role. Mikel is such an enigma, there is a good player there but it seems to forced within himself. I wonder who we would have had if we had let Utd have him all the way back in 2006!

I don't understand Karen Armstrong, she is a great writer and her books would be brilliant if she could be at least honest with both sides of the story. Someone needs to find the middle ground between people like Robert Spencer and Karen Armstrong in these discussions/books.

Hey Choulo Firstly I'd agree with you. Israeli's conduct with Lebanon has been greatly outside the the scope of modern diplomacy and being all the way in North Wales (was born in Scotland) we haven't got anything comparable. However remember there was a conflict between Hezbolah and Israel in 2006 after the withdrawal of Israeli forces due to continuing rocket attacks from southern Lebanon. The struggle has everything do with the people on the ground on both sides. However for a solution to be found, Israel has to withdraw but can't as it doesn't have the assurances that attacks won't return from the territory from the controlling political party. Don't forget about Israeli's missile Iron dome system, how many lives has it saved? You talk of the lack of casualties in the recent conflict but think how many there would have been otherwise? There were 4,954 rockets and mortar fired into Israel in July. Think how many would have died if it wasn't for that system? Do you really believe 4,954 of them were the aimed rockets? I don't believe per say, that the conflict is an Islamic/Jewish conflict completely, the failure to able to resolve the conflict has strong foundations in there though. As has been written, Israel recognizes Palestine right to exist but it isn't reciprocated and for what reason? Is it political or is it religious? As for Shahid, you know where the philosophy of death comes from in Islam. Do you believe those that commit the suicide attacks are doing out an attempt to help their fellow countrymen in the present or for something even greater? Bukari Volume 9, Book 90, Number 333: Abu Huraira said, Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my life is, I would love to fight in Allah's Cause and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred, and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life)." Abu Huraira used to repeat those words three times and I testify to it with Allah's Oath. I can't agree with you there is no way that by sacrificing yourself in a suicide attack can ever be the solution to your loved ones problems. Who has appointed you judge over the people you kill? Yes, I might be idealistic over this and far away but the point remains, if do what they did in Jerusalem yesterday then what have you achieved but murder? You haven't defended the honor of the Palestinian or the Al-Asqa Mosque you have killed people that you have no right to do. Didn't know that about the Lkyude Party thanks, I'll look into that Have only had a quick look. We can go through history to find the aggressor and defender, we would have very different views of the events of 632-642 in the Levant/Persia/Egypt for example which has a lot to do with this at the very start. Who is the aggressor in today's conflict, it can depend on what day it is. Just to make sure, I fully support both states' right to exist and the complete equal rights of any citizen in both states.

Have you read the articles you have posted? 1) True too many Palestinians have died, one is too many. He also says too many Israeli's have died. No mention of a genocide. He speaks of a conflict. 2) An Al-Jazeera editiorial and electronic-intifada site? Shall I post some from the Jerusalem times? No mention of the continued indiscriminate rocket firing at Israeli and when they miss their own position. Both are in the wrong in their actions but there is no evidence of a state sponsored genocide like you claimed. 3) Much better an impartial article. 5,315 deaths on both sides since 2000 . A state sponsored genocide? Where? What you need to do is show proof that Israel is on purpose killing Palestinians in an effort to wipe them out. That is a genocide, that is what some Turks attempted to do to the Armenians or what happened in the Holocaust. What is happening in the Israel/Palestinian conflict is not the same. Most of those killed in the conflict have been civilians not involved in the fighting. Deliberately targeting civilians is strictly prohibited in international law in all circumstances: a rule which applies to all combatants whether from government armed forces or members of militia groups. Persons protected under occupation law are considered as civilians except for that period of time that they may be actively engaged in hostilities or are carrying arms.Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/ In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month. It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, whose status was known 7/, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death. - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272#sthash.0wI0DUxo.dpuf

Perhaps to be honest, it is hard enough to try and study the Qu'ran without feeling depressed with its contents with going to hadith or summaries of how to live in the 630's today. Of course we could all read Karen Armstrong versions of these books and see what we think............

"Fat" Ronaldo was one of the best players I've ever seen and will probably be more fondly remembered than "thin" Ronaldo ever will be. Hopefully more players will come through our youth system and into the first team, can't wait to see the next Terry's and even going back Jody Morris come through for us to support.

I am not a Muslim but Hadith's (sayings of Muhammad) found in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, Al-Sughra/Al-Nasa'i are commonly understood to be one step below the Qu'ran as the authentic teaching of God but in this case through the divinely inspired words of Muhammad. You seem to have an interest in the middle east and possibly Islam too, so I ask you to pick up a copy of the Qu'ran and try and read it without the Hadith commentary that maybe along side it and see how much you can understand of it. Maybe you could tell us why Abu Lahib is suffering hell worse than Dante's nightmares without using Hadith.... I have a 1,600 page Ali Unal (sadly is very westernized) Qu'ran to go with my unannotated Pickthall Qu'ran and you can't escape the Hadith/Tasfir if you want to explain what is going on in the Qu'ran as it moves from place to place and moment to moment only to find them sura's later in the book. These words that you believe are only what extreme Muslim's take for granted is unfortunately not the case. If a similar Hadith is found in both Bukhari and Muslim then it is deemed to be the highest form of remembrance of what Muhammad said through the chain of Isnad (testimony) and is called Sahih (authentic saying of Muhammad). As for a Palestinian genocide conspired by the Israeli state, where is your proof? Are they killing them in secret or are they starving them to death?

That's what I wrote I don't think it is in Boukari. Never thought i'd be discussing Boukari and Muslim in a Chelsea forum lol!

Just to let you know this Hadith is from Sahil Muslim not Bukhari. Wouldn't want to be accused of misquoting anyone Just to let anyone reading this I'm not a Christian, Jew or unsurprisingly a Muslim but as I've got older I've made decision to research these faiths and to see if there is truth behind them. So far in my research Islam is by far the weakest in a (especially) historical and scriptural context. Watching apologetic discussions between the three faiths has been really revealing to me to see the weakness of their arguements in regarding the Torah and Injeel (gospel) in the context of history and theology.

Don't forget the 1,000,000 Jews that lived in the Arab and Magreb countries in 1948 that had to go to Israel. 250,000 from Morocco, 140,000 in Iraq, 80,000 in Egypt, 140,000 and 80,000 in Yemen under threat of death from their former friends and countrymen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries What would have happened in 1948 if the overwhelming Arab forces had defeated the burgeoning Israeli state? Would they have formed a just/joint state based on democratic principles? Do you really believe that? Or as most would believed something much worse would have happened.... The confiscation of Palestinian land that was centuries old is unjustifiable (after 1948) but there are ways to respond and build a peace process. Israel has recognized the Palestinian state's right to exist but it hasn't been replicated by the Hamas government in Palestine. Until that happens and they can actually talk and work through diplomatically this how can they ever come to an agreement? The Palestinians and Israeli's are individual people from a variety of faiths/beliefs/individual morals etc. If all we have to work with our opponents are rockets and machetes then what's the point in it all?

Sadly some Islam eschatology does point to this fact with advent of the Mahdi (Messiah) though this is different in the branches of Islam. I.e Shia's have very different view on how the world will end. “The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” It is this kind of hadith (sayings of Muhammad) from Sahih Muslim (with Boukari, the most trustworthy hadiths), (Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashrat as-Sa'ah, Book 41, 6985) that causes the responses we see in Jerusalem recently When I mean when on their own terms, I mean when the rule of Islam or at least the Palestinian state rules over the whole of Israel and Sharia/Jizya is enforced. Do I believe all of the Palestinians on the ground want this, I don't, each person is an individual and hopefully thinks and acts on their own but the people they put in office in Hamas do as seen in their charter.

I have to thank you for your work in getting my book to the attention of the mods here but what you are advocating is murder. Someone who fires a rocket does not have the right to judge the lives he or she will take. With Hamas' rockets, there is no accurate targeting system, they can land without precision and often land on Palestinian men, women and children. The person who fires that rocket has never met them when he or she injures them or kills them whether they are Palestinian/Israeli or from what ever country/faith/race. When you have people who will gladly love death more than they love life then you have to wonder what has put them into this mindset. Do they rationalize what they take, someone's brother/sister/mother/father? Or are they just the sons of apes (7.166, 2.65, 5.60) or the successors to the Philistines who have no rights? I personally believe both sides want peace but only on their terms, Israel does recognize the Palestinian state but the Palestinian state does not. You only have to look at the pre-amble to the Hamas Charter to understand why. "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." I don't know what will ever happen in this conflict, it's crazy to think that I was standing only yards away from where the murders took place this time last year. One day I hope they find peace. Soon.

Yeah, It does seem to have become a Pep V Mourinho debate but it gets people talking and that's a good thing (I think!) On Guardiola' s 2008/12 team it was one best footballing teams I have ever seen and a lot of credit goes to him. I think the team he had will be remembered for a long, long time and he deserves every plaudid he got then. The performances against in 2009 and 2011 made Utd look like amateurs and was exceptional to watch.

Have to agree with much of this with the exception of the Champions League not being worth as much then as it is now. The Champions League is the 2nd biggest trophy you can win after the world cup never mind if you win against Monaco or a drugged up Deportivo team Such a shame Ranieri went mental in Monaco or we would have (hopefully) beaten Mourinho' s Porto and who knows what would have happened....

The point I'm making is Barcelona whether they're under Guardiola, Rykaard, Martino st al are always considered one of the top teams in the world and are the overwhelming favourites in the vast majority of their fixtures. FC Porto under Mourinho, AVB or even if Guardiola took over would never be considered overwhelming favourites in the majority of their ECL games. There is a vast difference between what is achievable realistically with Porto and Bayern/ Barca and to compare them as equal as you did in your first post was highly unfair on what Mourinho had achieved at Porto under much, much hard circumstances. Would he have played like RDM in the Nou Camp? We don't know as he has never been in that situation before. He has came across this type of performance twice at critical stages against Inter in 2010 and Chelsea in 2012 (you could add Madrid to a smaller extent last season) and failed to be able to change games.

Hi Heisenberg If you note my post above yours I agreed that Mourinho would have struggled to be accepted in 2008 at Barcelona. I don't believe he would have struggled to get results but I doubt he would have been there longer than a season and a half at most. You compare Mourinho' s time at Porto vs Guardiola's time at Barcelona but there's one difference between the sides. Guardiola' s team in all games with the exception of perhaps the European giants away are always the strong favourites and were European Champions in 2007. Guardiola had Real Madrid and Valencia/A.Madrid somewhere in the distance as a comparable domestic rival while Mourinho had Sporting Lisbon, Benfica and Boavista, Braga to lesser extent. Even more important is the fact Mourinho' s Porto may have been among the favourites to win the UEFA cup but it's doubtful that they were the favourites. While Guardiola' s Barcelona's team was one of the favourites every year he was in charge due to their squad and history. Mourinho' s Porto team in 2003-4 wouldn't have been anyone's favourites and wouldn't be able to play Guardiola' s style even if he wanted to in the Champions League due to his inferior players. Imagine if Di Matteo had set up like for like in the Nou Camp in 2012, Chelsea would have lost badly. Guardiola has so far never been in that situation and worked his way to a higher level. Guardiola has had teams were the brief is to win every trophy possible because it possible for his team's to do that. When Mourinho was given the Liera job his brief wasn't to break into the top 3 of Portuguese football but he did. He would be expected to win the Portuguese league and cup and do well in UEFA cup but would he be expected to win the Champions League? I highly doubt it but he did. For a team from the Portuguese league this a monumental achievement that far surpasses Guardiola' s champions league wins in my opinion. Is Guardiola a great manager, he more than likely is. I have a great deal of respect for him, his conduct after the Chelsea game in 2012 was a credit to him as he could moaned and complained but accepted defeat with grace, something that Mourinho often fails to do. Until Guardiola goes to a club where he is not the favourites to win every trophy then this mark will always be against him to make people doubt his complete abilities as a manager.

It's an impossible conundrum, the Israeli - Palestine conflict. With Hamas refusing to ever recognize Israel's right to exist (also the majority of the Muslim world) and only ever signing (or paying lip-service to) hudna truces and Israel's over-expanded borders from 1947 with a burgeoning population, both sides can't ever back down. The difficulties that Israel has with actually getting any kind of agreement that won't simply be abrogated at the first opportune time can't be understated. It's not surprising that some Israelis are using the growing anger against "radical" Islam to further their rightful (as has Islam) claims to the Temple mount as a place of worship, which they are currently denied. Now is when they'll be seen in the most positive light when the retaliation comes as has been seen in Jerusalem today. It's an incredibly sad state of affairs, hopefully one day they'll find peace side by side as I saw when I was in Bethlehem this time last year.

I'd personally love to see how Guardiola (who I have a lot of respect for) try and manage Real Madrid. I doubt he'd last half a season before resigning with the way the club is run and the way the players sometimes behave. I don't think Mourinho would ever succeed at Barca though, it would make for some good alternate history if Mourniho had got the job over Guardiola in 2008.

I struggle to believe that Guardiola could have had the success that Mourinho had with Liera and Porto. Very controversial for a Chelsea website though

Seeing Mikel on the lists for potential departures, does anyone think he'll ever leave? He'll probably outlast Paolo Ferriera's stay and retire here!