The English Football Thread

[Fernando 6,656]

City were inconsistent like us. As I said we probably beat arsenal but then blow it at Bournemouth or something like that. 

But if they and us are still within reach in the January transfer window I'm sure someone will buy to help with that inconsistency. For city I think it's their middle and for us we already know. 

Edited Saturday at 17:09 by Fernando

[Vesper 30,507]

2 minutes ago, TheHulk said:

Rather them than Arsenal.

I only want us to win

IF Citeh keep winning the league they will set a bar so high over a long period that they may well even pass up Manure

I am not going to arsed over Arse winning a stray league title

Spuds yes, Arse no

where I want Arse to fail is the CL, same for Citeh

but may well not get my wishes there due to Arse's insane form and lack of quality in re other sides

PSG, Real, and a fully healthy Chels (ie Palmer and Colwill especially, but Colwill is a long shot) are the main teams that have the best shot

maybe Bayern if they play a far better game AND get Musiala back

 

[Laylabelle 9,586]

Its been years since we've had a trophy parade and feels long over due..

Dont want the next london club to win the league to be Arsenal! Its more and more likely but still..rather not! 

[Vesper 30,507]

nil 2 Fulham up on Spuds

[Vesper 30,507]

earliest Spuds have ever been down nil 2 at home in EPL history

[Vesper 30,507]

only Wolves have a worst EPL home record than Spuds this season

[Vesper 30,507]

Declan Rice, Moises Caicedo and Enzo Fernandez are proof that £100m transfers can work

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6842793/2025/11/29/rice-caicedo-fernandez-value-arsenal-Chelsea/

In an era where football fans implore their club to spend big money on new players, it’s notable that very few of the most expensive footballers in history have been an unqualified success at their new club.

Eleven players have been transferred for £100million or more, and there are more flops than clear positives. Antoine Griezmann’s 2017 move from Atletico Madrid to Barcelona (£105.9m) fell flat, and the experience of his direct replacement Joao Felix (£112.9m), arriving at Atletico from Benfica, was entirely underwhelming too. Philippe Coutinho’s £142m move from Liverpool to Barcelona was a clear failure — they ended up loaning him to Aston Villa, where he was a belated replacement for Jack Grealish, whose £100m move to Manchester City produced trophies, but far from Grealish’s best football.

Elsewhere, Neymar (£200m) and Kylian Mbappe (£165.7m) remain first and second on the list respectively and while their goalscoring numbers and Ligue 1 title count both look impressive, ultimately Paris Saint-Germain only achieved their long-awaited Champions League success after they departed. Their triumph last season was billed, perhaps a little reductively, as an anti-superstar win.

Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team without compromising his side’s structure and balance.

What You Should Read Next

There are 125 million reasons why Alexander Isak is becoming a big problem for Liverpool

British football's record signing could not have made a worse start to his career at his new club

And therefore it’s arguable that, amongst the aforementioned 11, the three positive cases will be in the same midfield zone at Stamford Bridge on Sunday. And their positioning is relevant. The other eight were all attackers or playmakers. Enzo Fernandez (£106m), Declan Rice (£105m) and Moises Caicedo (up to £115m) are all-round midfielders — and they aren’t necessarily playing the roles we expected.

Rice and Caceido in action at Stamford Bridge in November 2024Glyn Kirk/AFP via Getty Images

Fernandez burst onto the world scene at World Cup 2022, brought in to stabilise an Argentina side which had suffered a shock defeat by Saudi Arabia. He offered passing ability, but destructive qualities too — no one at the tournament made more tackles in their own third of the pitch. Chelsea, a club with a history of solid, reliable holding midfielders, seemed a perfect fit.

And while that was where Fernandez was initially deployed, he’s impressed in more advanced zones. In his four seasons at Chelsea, he’s gone from zero goals per game, to 0.1, to 0.2, to 0.4. He’s gone from 0.2 shots on target per game, to 0.5, to 0.6, to 1.0. He’s gone from shooting from an average of 26 yards, to 21 yards, to 18 yards, to 17 yards. His recent goal against Burnley, converting a cut-back from point-blank range, was very different from what we expected when he joined, but typical of his game these days. He’s playing something closer to the Frank Lampard role than the Claude Makelele role.

“Enzo can play in different positions for us, he can play as a No 6 or as an attacking midfielder,” his manager Enzo Maresca said in September. “We have used him in 90 per cent of our games as an attacking midfielder, and I think he is very good in this position. But it depends a little bit on the game plan.”

That game plan has also determined the precise role played by his midfield partner, Caicedo. In his Brighton & Hove Albion days, Caicedo was billed as true all-rounder, a midfield ball-winner who could also surge into attack and make positive forward passes. What wasn’t yet evident, although perhaps obvious in hindsight, was that Caicedo was well-suited to the unusual ‘half-back’ role that involves acting as a right-back without possession, but a central midfielder when Chelsea had the ball.

Caicedo has shown positional flexibility since joining ChelseaJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

“I see Moi as a No 6 in the way he is playing since we started,” he said last season. “He’s played some matches as a full-back off the ball, and then on the ball he is a No 6, a holding midfielder.”

Maresca used this approach on a number of occasions last season, and reprised the system in the 5-1 thrashing of Ajax last month, when Chelsea scored five times by the 48th-minute mark — one of them from Caicedo — and then switched off, having put the game to bed. Caicedo dictated the play from deep in midfield, then made recovery runs towards the right-back zone.

 

Meanwhile, when Rice was coming through at West Ham United, there was a question about whether his long-term future was as a centre-back or a holding midfielder. When he was linked with a return to Chelsea, who released him as a teenager, it seemed Chelsea believed he was more of a defender.

And even upon his arrival at Arsenal, it seemed unlikely Rice would play such a roving role. “The signing of Kai Havertz from Chelsea — who will likely fill the left-sided No 8 role for Arteta — would see Rice slot in as a No 6,” wrote The Athletic’s Art de Roche when Rice signed, although significantly, he added: “He is a player whose attributes lend themselves to more than one role.”

Rice has offered plenty of attacking threat since joining ArsenalJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

Rice has barely played in that holding midfield role, despite Arsenal not having that position sorted — Thomas Partey and Jorginho were replaced with Martin Zubimendi and Christian Norgaard this summer. There was never a thought for Rice to play that static No 6 role, because he’s become such a specialist at his left-sided No 8 role.

Still, his performance in Arsenal’s thumping 4-1 win over Tottenham Hotspur last weekend was interesting — at times he was receiving the ball between his centre-backs, the next he was bursting in behind the opposition for a good chance.

 

And all these players have benefited from the sense that central midfielders are being given more freedom than a couple of seasons ago — there is less clear demarcation of defensive midfielders and attacking midfielders, and instead a resurgence of popularity in players who could broadly be considered box-to-box midfielders, who do a bit of everything.

It’s fair to add that, at these prices, Fernandez, Caicedo and Rice need more longevity, and more honours, before we officially classify them as good-value-for-money signings. But thus far, signs are good.

Attackers signed for £100m+ are automatically considered worth building a side around — sometimes worth ripping up successful systems for. But history suggests the best way to spend £100m is actually on an emerging all-round midfielder, who is young enough to be shaped into what the club needs, and versatile enough to play different roles.

[Special Juan 28,304]

No bias on Sky Sports today covering the Liverpool game...they have Connor Coady and Jamie Carragher in the studio

[Laylabelle 9,586]

54 minutes ago, Special Juan said:

No bias on Sky Sports today covering the Liverpool game...they have Connor Coady and Jamie Carragher in the studio

The stupid thing is despite their form if we lose today they're only 2 behind us...its bonkers 

[Laylabelle 9,586]

16 hours ago, Vesper said:

Declan Rice, Moises Caicedo and Enzo Fernandez are proof that £100m transfers can work

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6842793/2025/11/29/rice-caicedo-fernandez-value-arsenal-Chelsea/

In an era where football fans implore their club to spend big money on new players, it’s notable that very few of the most expensive footballers in history have been an unqualified success at their new club.

Eleven players have been transferred for £100million or more, and there are more flops than clear positives. Antoine Griezmann’s 2017 move from Atletico Madrid to Barcelona (£105.9m) fell flat, and the experience of his direct replacement Joao Felix (£112.9m), arriving at Atletico from Benfica, was entirely underwhelming too. Philippe Coutinho’s £142m move from Liverpool to Barcelona was a clear failure — they ended up loaning him to Aston Villa, where he was a belated replacement for Jack Grealish, whose £100m move to Manchester City produced trophies, but far from Grealish’s best football.

Elsewhere, Neymar (£200m) and Kylian Mbappe (£165.7m) remain first and second on the list respectively and while their goalscoring numbers and Ligue 1 title count both look impressive, ultimately Paris Saint-Germain only achieved their long-awaited Champions League success after they departed. Their triumph last season was billed, perhaps a little reductively, as an anti-superstar win.

Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team without compromising his side’s structure and balance.

What You Should Read Next

There are 125 million reasons why Alexander Isak is becoming a big problem for Liverpool

British football's record signing could not have made a worse start to his career at his new club

And therefore it’s arguable that, amongst the aforementioned 11, the three positive cases will be in the same midfield zone at Stamford Bridge on Sunday. And their positioning is relevant. The other eight were all attackers or playmakers. Enzo Fernandez (£106m), Declan Rice (£105m) and Moises Caicedo (up to £115m) are all-round midfielders — and they aren’t necessarily playing the roles we expected.

Rice and Caceido in action at Stamford Bridge in November 2024Glyn Kirk/AFP via Getty Images

Fernandez burst onto the world scene at World Cup 2022, brought in to stabilise an Argentina side which had suffered a shock defeat by Saudi Arabia. He offered passing ability, but destructive qualities too — no one at the tournament made more tackles in their own third of the pitch. Chelsea, a club with a history of solid, reliable holding midfielders, seemed a perfect fit.

And while that was where Fernandez was initially deployed, he’s impressed in more advanced zones. In his four seasons at Chelsea, he’s gone from zero goals per game, to 0.1, to 0.2, to 0.4. He’s gone from 0.2 shots on target per game, to 0.5, to 0.6, to 1.0. He’s gone from shooting from an average of 26 yards, to 21 yards, to 18 yards, to 17 yards. His recent goal against Burnley, converting a cut-back from point-blank range, was very different from what we expected when he joined, but typical of his game these days. He’s playing something closer to the Frank Lampard role than the Claude Makelele role.

“Enzo can play in different positions for us, he can play as a No 6 or as an attacking midfielder,” his manager Enzo Maresca said in September. “We have used him in 90 per cent of our games as an attacking midfielder, and I think he is very good in this position. But it depends a little bit on the game plan.”

That game plan has also determined the precise role played by his midfield partner, Caicedo. In his Brighton & Hove Albion days, Caicedo was billed as true all-rounder, a midfield ball-winner who could also surge into attack and make positive forward passes. What wasn’t yet evident, although perhaps obvious in hindsight, was that Caicedo was well-suited to the unusual ‘half-back’ role that involves acting as a right-back without possession, but a central midfielder when Chelsea had the ball.

Caicedo has shown positional flexibility since joining ChelseaJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

“I see Moi as a No 6 in the way he is playing since we started,” he said last season. “He’s played some matches as a full-back off the ball, and then on the ball he is a No 6, a holding midfielder.”

Maresca used this approach on a number of occasions last season, and reprised the system in the 5-1 thrashing of Ajax last month, when Chelsea scored five times by the 48th-minute mark — one of them from Caicedo — and then switched off, having put the game to bed. Caicedo dictated the play from deep in midfield, then made recovery runs towards the right-back zone.

 

Meanwhile, when Rice was coming through at West Ham United, there was a question about whether his long-term future was as a centre-back or a holding midfielder. When he was linked with a return to Chelsea, who released him as a teenager, it seemed Chelsea believed he was more of a defender.

And even upon his arrival at Arsenal, it seemed unlikely Rice would play such a roving role. “The signing of Kai Havertz from Chelsea — who will likely fill the left-sided No 8 role for Arteta — would see Rice slot in as a No 6,” wrote The Athletic’s Art de Roche when Rice signed, although significantly, he added: “He is a player whose attributes lend themselves to more than one role.”

Rice has offered plenty of attacking threat since joining ArsenalJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

Rice has barely played in that holding midfield role, despite Arsenal not having that position sorted — Thomas Partey and Jorginho were replaced with Martin Zubimendi and Christian Norgaard this summer. There was never a thought for Rice to play that static No 6 role, because he’s become such a specialist at his left-sided No 8 role.

Still, his performance in Arsenal’s thumping 4-1 win over Tottenham Hotspur last weekend was interesting — at times he was receiving the ball between his centre-backs, the next he was bursting in behind the opposition for a good chance.

 

And all these players have benefited from the sense that central midfielders are being given more freedom than a couple of seasons ago — there is less clear demarcation of defensive midfielders and attacking midfielders, and instead a resurgence of popularity in players who could broadly be considered box-to-box midfielders, who do a bit of everything.

It’s fair to add that, at these prices, Fernandez, Caicedo and Rice need more longevity, and more honours, before we officially classify them as good-value-for-money signings. But thus far, signs are good.

Attackers signed for £100m+ are automatically considered worth building a side around — sometimes worth ripping up successful systems for. But history suggests the best way to spend £100m is actually on an emerging all-round midfielder, who is young enough to be shaped into what the club needs, and versatile enough to play different roles.

Bit of bad timing haha..their 100m scored today and ours got red carded..

[Vesper 30,507]

9 minutes ago, Laylabelle said:

their 100m scored today

?

[Laylabelle 9,586]

1 minute ago, Vesper said:

?

He got his goal finally..so the problem it mentions them having with him who knows might be over now..hopefully not cause it cant just be us who buys big amd then goes wrong

[Vesper 30,507]

6 minutes ago, Laylabelle said:

He got his goal finally..so the problem it mentions them having with him who knows might be over now..hopefully not cause it cant just be us who buys big amd then goes wrong

who?

in the history of football there are only been a handful of CMF or DMFs who cost £100m

    
Jude Bellingham  (who is more of an AMF)
Enzo Fernández  
Declan Rice
Moisés Caicedo    

and, adjusted for inflation

Paul Pogba 

[Laylabelle 9,586]

10 minutes ago, Vesper said:

who?

in the history of football there are only been a handful of CMF or DMFs who cost £100m

    
Jude Bellingham  (who is more of an AMF)
Enzo Fernández  
Declan Rice
Moisés Caicedo    

and, adjusted for inflation

Paul Pogba 

"Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team"

But he got his goal today so who knows could be the end of that scoring issue..like said hopefully not! More fun that way

[Fernando 6,656]

On 29/11/2025 at 12:20, Vesper said:

I only want us to win

IF Citeh keep winning the league they will set a bar so high over a long period that they may well even pass up Manure

I am not going to arsed over Arse winning a stray league title

Spuds yes, Arse no

where I want Arse to fail is the CL, same for Citeh

but may well not get my wishes there due to Arse's insane form and lack of quality in re other sides

PSG, Real, and a fully healthy Chels (ie Palmer and Colwill especially, but Colwill is a long shot) are the main teams that have the best shot

maybe Bayern if they play a far better game AND get Musiala back

 

I was thinking about this, if City wins it's not the end of the world for me, if Arenal wins the mentaility shift will be insane and more competition withim over the next couple of season. 

I prefer Arsenal blow it because mentally they will be so low ala Spurs. 

City has been the reference over the last decade and if they win it I think Pep will use it to hung up his boots. 

So if we can't win it, I don't mind City. 

[Vesper 30,507]

On 30/11/2025 at 18:49, Laylabelle said:

"Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team"

But he got his goal today so who knows could be the end of that scoring issue..like said hopefully not! More fun that way

oh, ok, I was only thinking of MFers ie DMFs and CMFs, as it gets a bit complicated when you delve into many AMFs (like Wirtz), who often play as wingers and SS's and even CF's as well)

[Vesper 30,507]

Bayern Munich's Uli Hoeneß reignites feud with Liverpool in fresh attack on the club signing Florian Wirtz

Is he obsessed or bitter?

https://thedailybriefing.io/p/bayern-munich-president-florian-wirtz-liverpool-transfer

 

The war of words between Bayern Munich and Liverpool has reignited following Uli Hoeneß’s scathing assessment of Florian Wirtz’s start to life on Merseyside.

The Bayern honorary president has taken fresh aim at the Premier League giants, claiming their record signing was sold a lie by Arne Slot and is now suffering in a team overloaded with “superstars.”

The context for Hoeneß’s bitterness is no secret. In the summer of 2025, Bayern Munich believed they were in pole position to sign the German playmaker from Bayer Leverkusen.

Instead, Wirtz opted for a blockbuster €125m (£116m) move to Anfield, rejecting the Bavarians to become the centerpiece of Arne Slot’s new era.

However, the transition has been far from seamless. Wirtz has struggled to replicate his Leverkusen form, failing to register a goal or assist in his opening Premier League matches as Liverpool endure a turbulent campaign.

For Hoeneß, this struggle is vindication that the midfielder made the wrong choice.

Hoeneß: “Liverpool only have chiefs and no workers”

Speaking to German media on Monday, Hoeneß did not hold back, suggesting Wirtz is being isolated by his own teammates.

“Apparently, Slot promised him something that he’s now clearly not keeping,” Hoeneß claimed. “He promised him he’d get the number 10 shirt and that he’d build a new team around him. That was rubbish. He got the number 7 shirt, and the new team is clearly not playing around Florian Wirtz.”

The Bayern chief went on to criticize Liverpool’s broader squad building, pointing to a lack of cohesion as the reason for their erratic form.

“They spent €500m and are having a disastrous season. In my opinion, that’s because they only have superstars. They only have chiefs and no workers. I always say: At Liverpool, they’ll soon have to play with five balls because the stars won’t give up any of them.”

He reserved his sharpest barbs for Wirtz’s attacking partners. “Poor Florian Wirtz, he doesn’t even get a ball there because Salah and Szoboszlai and all the others want to play with their own. I feel terribly sorry for him. Everything went through him in Leverkusen. In Liverpool, he gets five passes in a half – and if he loses the ball twice, he gets a bad rating.”

(Photo by Liverpool FC/Liverpool FC via Getty Images)

Florian Wirtz showed his quality against West Ham

Despite Hoeneß’s grim assessment, there are signs that the 22-year-old is beginning to find his rhythm.

In Liverpool’s morale-boosting 2-0 victory over West Ham this past weekend, Wirtz produced arguably his most complete performance in a red shirt.

Deployed centrally rather than out wide, Wirtz was the architect of Liverpool’s dominance. The stats paint a picture of a player far more involved than Hoeneß suggests.

In his 75 minutes on the pitch, Wirtz recorded 52 touches and completed 42 of his 45 attempted passes, a striking 93% completion rate that kept Liverpool ticking in the final third.

Crucially, he wasn’t just retaining possession; he was progressive. He completed 1 key pass, won 3 out of 5 ground duels, and successfully completed a dribble in tight space that nearly led to an opener for Alexander Isak.

While the goal contributions are still pending, the West Ham display offered a clear rebuttal to the idea that he is being frozen out.

As Liverpool look to stabilize their season, Slot will hope Wirtz’s quiet influence against the Hammers turns into the headline-grabbing numbers the Kop—and Uli Hoeneß, are watching for.

[Vesper 30,507]

nil 1 Citeh

Håland

fastest ever to 100 goals in the EPL

[Pizy 19,014]

Must be such an incredible feeling to have a striker like him in your team. Just the ultimate machine if he gets a chance in the box. 

I feel like City are poised to go on a winning run now that they’re within touching distance of Arse. One bad week or weekend and they’re right on their tails. And with Arse having Villa this weekend the pressure is on.

We MUST win tomorrow and against Bournemouth to keep pace. Raising our game against the big teams and then playing lethargic, lazy zombie football against the small teams will see dogshit teams like United passing us in the table.

[Vesper 30,507]

Foden on fire, on a hat trick