The English Football Thread

[OneMoSalah 8,778]

3 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Johnson, Duran, Omorodion... just shows you how great scouts are Stewart and Winstanley. Ready to apologize?

Duran & Omorodion basically same as Jackson. Neither what we needed given we already had Nico and Armando. Needed a top CF, not another project. Imagine subbing of Jackson after a frustrating afternoon to throw on another frustrating young CF 😂

Duran scored a screamer against Bayern and some nice goals last season but still lot to prove, hence why he is a “super sub” at Villa and not their main man. 

Thats half the battle with Stewart & Winstanley, both have hard ons for u21 players only, when it is abundantly clear we need some established quality in the mix 👍 

[Vesper 28,832]

19 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Duran & Omorodion basically same as Jackson. Neither what we needed given we already had Nico and Armando. Needed a top CF, not another project. Imagine subbing of Jackson after a frustrating afternoon to throw on another frustrating young CF 😂

Duran scored a screamer against Bayern and some nice goals last season but still lot to prove, hence why he is a “super sub” at Villa and not their main man. 

Thats half the battle with Stewart & Winstanley, both have hard ons for u21 players only, when it is abundantly clear we need some established quality in the mix 👍 

So which CF do YOU want?

Here is every other remotely (and a couple are basically impossible) available CF valid (IMHO) option who is valued at or over the ones (Nico, Samu, Duran) you already mentioned.

in order of valuation:

  
Lautaro Martínez (very very unliekly Inter would sell him)
Victor Osimhen 
Alexander Isak 
Viktor Gyökeres
Dušan Vlahović 
Ollie Watkins 
Loïs Openda 
Benjamin Sesko
João Pedro  
Jonathan David   
Evan Ferguson
Mikel Oyarzabal  
Victor Boniface
Santiago Gimenez 
Brian Brobbey 
Elye Wahi  

Omar Marmoush is another option perhaps.

[Vesper 28,832]

Man City, Premier League claim win in Associated Party case

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/41661277/man-city-premier-league-claim-win-associated-party-case

Manchester City and the Premier League both claimed victory on Monday after an Arbitration Panel released its judgement on a legal challenge against Associated Party Transaction (APT) rules.

Associated Party Transactions relate to sponsorship deals between a club and other companies which may be linked, such as City and the United Arab Emirates' Etihad Aviation Group.

The case, which is unrelated to hearing into the 115 charges for allegedly breaching the Premier League's financial rules, saw City claiming "discrimination against Gulf ownership" and that the rules were "unlawful."

The Panel upheld two of City's complaints in relation to shareholder loans and how Fair Market Value (FMV) is assessed, while all other challenges failed.

City's bid to get the APT and FMV system completely changed was rejected, with the Panel saying it was a crucial to the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules.

On one count, the Panel said that the rules are "unlawful ... because they exclude from their scope shareholder loans." This brings into the picture millions of interest-free loans which have been issued to clubs by wealthy backers. Everton, Brighton & Hove Albion, Arsenal and Chelsea are all reported to have enjoyed loans running into hundreds of millions of pounds.

City, meanwhile, have no such debts and argued that it was unfair that other clubs could gain a financial advantage by discounting such loans from FMV assessments, which may determine interest should be paid.

The second count covered how the Premier League determines FMV when assessing an APT. The Panel ruled that it was "unlawful" that a club is unable to comment on the data used by the Premier League before a decision is reached, that the procedure was unfair, that City were not given the opportunity to challenge the judgement and it took too long.

The Panel also said it was unfair to place the burden of proof on the club when demonstrating Fair Market Value, and this should fall on the Premier League.

The Premier League had rejected two APTs, with Etihad and First Abu Dhabi Bank, with those both now set aside. The APTs will have to be reassessed when the Premier League has looked again at how it applies its APT rules.

However, the major win for the Premier League was that APTs as a concept were supported. Had the Panel said the system was completely unlawful it would have enabled City, and other clubs under similar state ownership such as Newcastle United, to make sponsorship deals to any valuation.

[Vesper 28,832]

The Premier League season so far: Our writers’ verdicts

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5825397/2024/10/08/premier-league-roundtable-october/

The October international break, also known as the Premier League’s sacking season.

Enough time has elapsed for owners to get twitchy, yet plenty of matches remain to make things right.

The 2024-25 campaign may only be seven gameweeks old but loads has happened — that draw between Manchester City and Arsenal, Cole Palmer’s four first-half-goals, Manchester United’s worst start to a Premier League season and, it is easy to forget, Everton squandering a two-goal lead in consecutive matches.

As teams take a two-week break from domestic action, our writers Carl Anka, Oliver Kay, Nick Miller, Tim Spiers, Duncan Alexander, Seb Stafford-Bloor and Jordan Campbell deliver their verdicts on what we have seen so far.

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What is your one main takeaway from the season so far?

Nick Miller: Uncertainty rules. The early weeks of the season have suggested we could be in for a proper title race, with Manchester City being Manchester City (for the most part), Arsenal continuing their excellence from last season and Liverpool being a bit better than expected. But City’s 115 charges loom: it might not be especially practical, but it would be nice if their punishment (assuming they’re found guilty) was imposed at the start of a season and wasn’t hanging over everything during a season like some giant megaboss version of VAR, not allowing us to enjoy anything because we know it could all be instantly invalidated.

Oliver Kay: Very little has changed. We can talk about a new season as a new start, but, for better or worse, whether it’s under a new manager (Brighton & Hove Albion, Chelsea and Liverpool) or the same one (Manchester United and others), most teams have picked up roughly where they left off. That’s great if you’re Manchester City, Arsenal or Aston Villa; it’s even encouraging if you’re Chelsea, who finished last season well. It’s not so good if you’re Manchester United or West Ham United.

Seb Stafford-Bloor: That coaching changes need not necessarily lead to prolonged periods of transition. Enzo Maresca at Chelsea, Arne Slot at Liverpool; neither team has been perfect, but both have been much better than expected and have played with a clear-eyed style. Chelsea and Maresca are a particularly interesting example because they seem infinitely more cohesive, whereas — and surely I was not alone in thinking this — few people would have thought the answer to the issues at Stamford Bridge was more change.

Duncan Alexander: That this might be the ‘Big Six’ era — or perhaps the ‘Great Eight’ if you chuck Villa and Newcastle into the mix — but really it’s the ‘Very Good’ Three of Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal that are still a step above everyone else. Liverpool under Slot have added control to their offering, Arsenal have added the sort of relentlessness that comes from coming so close to winning the league for two years in a row. City, though, are probably operating at a net loss, with Rodri out for the season — all of which should make this an absolute 2013-14 of a title race (legal decisions notwithstanding).

Jordan Campbell: That the more the top managers say this is the strongest Premier League they’ve ever seen (it was the same last year, and the year before), the less I believe them. Teams have more distinct identities, yes, but my theory is that these top coaches stroke the ego of their managerial counterparts so they continue playing expansive football against them. You’d rather rip them apart on the counter than toil to break down a low block, wouldn’t you?

Tim Spiers: A predictable lack of unpredictability. Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal occupy the top three spots, the promoted teams are struggling, Everton are doing Everton things, Tottenham Hotspur are either amazing or shambolic and their manager wouldn’t have it any other way, Manchester United aren’t being coached well and their summer signings, which were good on paper, aren’t working. Nothing is a surprise.

The early front-runner for player of the season is…

Anka: A knee injury last season meant it took a little longer for Premier League viewers to get acquainted with Jurrien Timber’s game. And what a game it is. The 23-year-old is one of those multi-talented and multi-faceted footballers who bring us closer to the dream of “positionless” football that Johan Cruyff and others talked about.

Miller: I wish I had a slightly less obvious answer to this, but it’s Palmer, isn’t it? He’s a fascinating character: I’d love to just follow him around for a day, just to see how he reacts to things. But he’s even more brilliant than he was last season, only this time in a different position: admittedly ‘off the left, drifting into the middle’ to ‘in the middle’ isn’t a colossal shift, but players have been flummoxed by less.

Kay: I’m inclined to say Palmer, too. But might I have said Erling Haaland before Palmer’s absurd one-man show against Brighton? Might there be a case for William Saliba and Gabriel, who are becoming synonymous for Arsenal in the same way Steve Bould and Tony Adams once were? Might there even be a left-field shout for Ryan Gravenberch or Bryan Mbeumo?

Stafford-Bloor: Palmer has a compelling case, clearly, but Bukayo Saka has been really good — not least because of how arduous his workload was over the summer. When Arsenal lost Martin Odegaard, so much of their creative burden fell on Saka’s shoulders and yet, to this point, there has been no real dip in their potency. Seven assists already tell part of the story, but he is also his team’s most dynamic carrier, and — importantly — has already faced Aston Villa, Tottenham and Manchester City.

Alexander: Saka has assisted in all but one of Arsenal’s Premier League games this season (and ‘created’ an own goal against Leicester, which doesn’t officially count but morally sort of does). It’s a sensational start to the season, especially for someone who played so much at Euro 2024 and suggests that — somehow — he is still continuing to improve. And a few miles across London Palmer’s numbers are equally outstanding. Remember when England couldn’t produce left-footed players?

Campbell: It’s impossible to look past the individual brilliance of Palmer, a player whose paper-thin physique and off-the-cuff style is so refreshing in an era of power and systems. But Kai Havertz is a man transformed, building on the last four months of last season when he became Arsenal’s first-choice striker. He has always been a unique, if frustrating talent, but he now feels fully understood by Arsenal, connecting their attacking play and leading their suffocating press. Crucially, he now looks like he wants to be the protagonist in every game and is adding the goals to prove it.

Spiers: I’m amazed only Oli has mentioned Haaland. The guy scored 10 goals in his first five games — the best goalscoring start to an English top-flight season since Aston Villa’s Pongo Waring, friend of the statisticians, in 1930. He hasn’t netted in two matches and he’s still scored more goals than 10 other Premier League teams, and more than Manchester United and Southampton combined.

Which new signing has impressed you most?

Anka: Nikola Milenkovic is your classic meat-and-potatoes centre-back who comes in, bolts things down and allows others to flourish. His arrival at Nottingham Forest means Murillo has a bit more security when he attempts to progress the ball out from the back, and it means Nuno Espirito Santo can spend more time transforming this side into a robust unit similar to those dreaded Wolves teams between 2018-21. Sometimes it’s nice watching a defender who relishes defensive work.

Miller: I wasn’t really sure about Riccardo Calafiori when Arsenal signed him, partly because if they had £42million ($55m) going spare it felt like they should have put it towards an attacker rather than another defender who is comfortable shifting into midfield. But I was wrong: he’s been among the most fun players in the division so far, enjoyably chaotic without being a liability (yet), and has complemented the rest of the Arsenal defence brilliantly.

Kay: In terms of a potential top-level talent, probably Savinho at Manchester City. It’s only flashes of brilliance so far, but flashes of brilliance are not to be sniffed at when you’re starting in a Pep Guardiola team at the age of 20. I’m enjoying Milenkovic at Nottingham Forest, Emile Smith Rowe at Fulham and Iliman Ndiaye at Everton, too.

Stafford-Bloor: Dominic Solanke. He is exactly what Tottenham needed and the goals he has scored so far, all three of them from short range, describe the kind of instinct that they were missing in the penalty box. But watch the way he presses ball carriers and notice how difficult he makes it for opposing teams when they work their way out of their own ends. Rather than just running about manically and compromising the structure behind him, his work is precise and measured. Spurs have got this decision absolutely right.

Campbell: Ndiaye. Everton have been a vacuum of hope the past few years, downtrodden and too often lacking any sort of X factor to get Goodison Park rocking. One player can sometimes change an entire mood and the Senegalese winger is starting to do that. His only thought is to be direct and dribble at the opposition full-back, as shown by his 10 dribbles against Newcastle United. If Sean Dyche can find a way to loosen his system and improve the supply to him, he could start to motor.

Spiers: A common characteristic of a relegated team is that they don’t have a regular goalscorer — no player reached double figures for any of last season’s relegated sides. Liam Delap cost Ipswich Town £20million ($26.2m) and, with four goals already, he could end up being pound-for-pound the most valuable signing of the season.

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What’s been your game of the season so far?

Anka: Manchester City 2-2 Arsenal. Over the past 18 months, this fixture had turned into bitty attritional affairs as Mikel Arteta wisely decided to sacrifice attacking endeavour for some control and stability. That changed on September 21 when we got a thriller between the two best sides in the land. It’s also becoming clear they don’t like each other very much, which only added to my enjoyment.

Miller: In terms of the game I sat and watched and was captivated from beginning to end, it’s City 2-2 Arsenal. But as a game that really examined the fragilities of the human spirit, that exposed the sort of mental collapse that is possible in the right circumstances, it’s Everton getting to the 87th minute against Bournemouth 2-0 up, and still managing to lose 3-2.

Stafford-Bloor: Brentford against Wolves was some hysterical nonsense and, thematically, that helped to make a point. The quality has just not been very high this season and, while the Premier League has had its usual cartoonish moments off the field, that has not been balanced — yet — by anything particularly interesting on the pitch. Maybe the fixture computer has just sold us all a bad start.

Alexander: Let’s crunch some of those numbers, shall we? The match with the highest combined xG (5.55) was Manchester United vs Spurs. The match with the highest xNarrative was Manchester City vs Arsenal. Palmer rattled in the first four-goals-in-a-first-half the Premier League has ever seen when Chelsea beat Brighton, but I’m going to go for Bournemouth vs Chelsea, a seemingly innocuous match that produced a Premier League record 14 yellow cards from Anthony Taylor, plus a handful for the benches for good measure. Tremendous, baffling coastal fun.

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Has anything surprised you so far?

Anka: Chelsea have such talent within their squad that they were always going to come good. Yet the speed at which Maresca has them clicking has impressed me. Nicolas Jackson looks to have figured out some of the finer points of centre-forward play and Palmer is making a mockery of those who tried to claim his numbers were inflated by penalties. Cut through the outside noise. This is a team that works.

Miller: Gravenberch fully repurposing himself as a holding midfielder. It feels like a happy accident from Liverpool’s perspective because they clearly didn’t think he was going to be this good, or else they wouldn’t have tried so hard to sign Martin Zubimendi in the summer. But he’s been tremendous, and a pleasing antidote to the prevailing modern feeling that the only way to fix things is in the transfer market.

Stafford-Bloor: Call me naive, but I did think Manchester United would be better and that, at the least, it would be possible to see a positive direction of travel. Is there anything there at all? It’s difficult to take too much from wins over an off-colour Fulham and highly-vulnerable Southampton, when competent teams are just making such short work of them. The Liverpool defeat could have been much, much worse. On a more efficient day, Tottenham could also have scored five or six at Old Trafford. Sunday’s draw with Aston Villa was an improvement, but only in the sense that it was not an outright disaster.

Alexander: Some oblique alarm bells rang when 1990s-born tactician Fabian Hurzeler won manager of the month at his first attempt. It felt like a classic case of a decent start that owed more to muscle memory from the previous regime, especially after Brighton got Palmer-ed at Stamford Bridge. But the sensational comeback against Spurs at the weekend might be the moment Hurzeler showed that, despite being three months younger than the first text message sent on a mobile phone, he could have what it takes to succeed in Our League.

Campbell: Nottingham Forest. Over the past few years Nuno’s stock had fallen and a perception had set in that he was an overly-cautious coach. Just one defeat in seven games, gaining four points against Liverpool and Chelsea, has redressed that. Look at the options that operate behind Chris Wood — Anthony Elanga, Morgan Gibbs-White and Callum Hudson-Odoi — and you see they have built a young, exciting core. The addition of Elliot Anderson behind them has added another young English talent to the group, which is heartening to see.

Spiers: Teams refusing to abandon the principle of playing out from the back, even in the face of incomprehensible ineptitude. Obviously, there are long-term benefits to perfecting it, but in the meantime the stubborn persistence of some managers when their teams are conceding hilariously bad goals is kinda baffling.

GO DEEPER

Playing out from the back: Why teams do it and is it worth the risk?

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October is sacking season — who do you fear for?

Anka: Clubs within the top six have often taken turns holding the ‘crisis baton’. You never want to be the manager holding it during the international break, lest you have people nattering on about your job security for an additional week. Erik ten Hag was the one in possession after losing 3-0 to Liverpool in September. He appears to be in trouble again after a 0-0 draw against Aston Villa — an OK result but one which leaves Manchester United 14th in the Premier League.

GO DEEPER

Analysing Man United manager alternatives to Erik ten Hag: Hoeness, Van Nistelrooy, Tuchel and more

Miller: Leicester City haven’t started the season brilliantly, but I’m still slightly surprised at the heat Steve Cooper is getting from some of their fans. It’s only been seven games, but it does feel like we’re already in that scenario where the boulder is rolling down the hill and it’s going to be really, really difficult to stop it now.

Kay: Don’t underestimate the possibility of early-season panic at Leicester (Cooper) or Southampton (Russell Martin), but the pressure on Ten Hag at Manchester United looks far greater. The new regime at Old Trafford were minded to replace him at the end of last season and he needed a serious uplift this season if it was to be more than a stay of execution. I would say they have shown a slight improvement so far this season — not a popular view — but I must emphasise the word “slight”. Things will have to improve significantly and I just can’t see that happening at the moment.

Alexander: We are heading towards a year since Gary O’Neil’s triumphant appearance on Monday Night Football cemented his tactical credentials in the nation’s mind, as did his defensive masterclass to beat Manchester City at Molineux. There are no defensive masterclasses at Molineux anymore.

Campbell: Oliver Glasner. In winning six of their final seven games of last season Crystal Palace played some scintillating football. It looked like he had unlocked an energy within what is a vibrant squad. Any notions of Palace going supersonic and doing a Leicester this season have sadly been misplaced. Losing Michael Olise was always going to be a blow but they put in one of the worst first-half performances of the season against Manchester United, making it look like they were facing the blue half of the city. The Austrian should get time, and Palace were better against Liverpool, but if they keep squandering chances the winless run could get out of hand.

Spiers: Ten Hag. If, after spending £600m, overseeing a club’s worst Premier League campaign last season and now presiding over their worst start this time around (eight points and five goals from seven games) isn’t enough for INEOS to look (again) for someone else to replace him, I’m not sure what is.

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What would you like to see more or less of in the rest of the season?

Anka: I don’t think all of the things that make Jhon Duran such a potent attacking option off the bench would carry over if Unai Emery made him the starting striker. I do think Duran is one of the Premier League’s most entertaining strikers and I want to see how many inventive finishes he has in his locker.

Kay: Less time-wasting — although the first step towards that is less tolerance of time-wasting. Don’t just book a goalkeeper in the 88th minute when he’s wasted another 30 seconds before restarting play. It blows my mind that kicking the ball a matter of inches sees Declan Rice sent off for a second bookable offence, “delaying the restart”, whereas a goalkeeper can systematically waste time all afternoon before getting a yellow card in the last couple of minutes.

Stafford-Bloor: The moaning about refereeing is making the Premier League difficult to engage with. It is not so much the grumbling over mistakes, more the insistence — sometimes even across official club channels — that they are not mistakes at all, but the manifestation of some deep-rooted conspiracy. It’s becoming so performative.

Alexander: The last international break was full of, yes, international football but also an overwhelming nostalgia for Premier League football from 15 years ago. That’s fine in and of itself (who doesn’t enjoy a goals compilation from any era, really?) but the idea the game now has been ‘ruined’ is baffling. The general level of entertainment in a contemporary match is way higher than it was in the 2000s — and, yes, that includes errors from playing out from the back. Don’t believe me? Go and watch a full match from 2006 on YouTube — there’s a reason these have considerably fewer views than the two minutes 38 seconds of long-range screamers.

Campbell: Howard Webb’s Mic’d Up — and by that I mean less. The idea of transparency and accountability in the decision-making process sounded like a step forward for officiating but it often feels like working backwards from the outcome to find a justification. It is seeing referees lean further into the easy defence of ‘the player gave me no choice’ and ‘common sense isn’t in the rulebook’, which further inflames fans who believe there is a lack of autonomy for referees.

Spiers: More clips on social media from CBS Golazo of them bantering Micah Richards! No but seriously, can we have some better punditry, please? Gary Neville, Alan Shearer, Ian Wright and Jamie Carragher set high standards but generally the rest muddle through talking about vibes, players being brilliant or bad and teams who just don’t want it enough. Perhaps I’m biased but seeing Rory Smith on the BBC’s Champions League show or our own James Horncastle on TNT Sports’ goals show was such a breath of fresh air — insight, knowledge and the ability to convey those opinions and arguments in a palatable and entertaining way. More please.

Edited October 8 by Vesper

[mkh 273]

𝐁𝐑𝐄𝐀𝐊𝐈𝐍𝐆 | Man City's director of football Txiki Begiristain is set to LEAVE his role at the end of the season, reports @David_Ornstein.

 

PEP next...?🤔

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Chelsea and Nottingham Forest charged for failing to control players, no action against Nicolas Jackson

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5828330/2024/10/08/Chelsea-nottingham-forest-fa-charges/

The Football Association (FA) has charged Chelsea and Nottingham Forest with failing to control their players following a mass confrontation during their Premier League match at Stamford Bridge on Sunday.

Chelsea striker Nicolas Jackson will not face any disciplinary action for his involvement in the brawl. The 23-year-old was part of an altercation in the 1-1 draw, during which he appeared to thrust his hand into the face of Forest defender Morato amid the melee.

The heated melee was sparked in the 88th minute when Levi Colwill squared up to Neco Williams after the Welshman shoved Marc Cucurella into the home technical area, sending Chelsea head coach Enzo Maresca tumbling to the ground.

A statement from the FA said “both clubs failed to ensure their players didn’t behave in an improper and/or provocative way around the 88th minute”.

Chelsea and Forest have until Thursday to provide their responses.

Following the result, Maresca said: “These things can happen. In terms of emotion, the team is fighting altogether and I don’t think some of them lose their heads. They were, all of them, in the game. I was happy with that.”

Asked specifically about Jackson, Maresca added: “In that moment, I think not only Nicolas was inside the pitch. If you look, more players from the bench were inside the pitch.

“If you ask me if I prefer when something like that happens, players from outside involved or not, I like the spirit of the team. I like the spirit of our team. I don’t see any problem.”

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The Manchester City APT verdict hasn’t changed anyone’s mind

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5826502/2024/10/09/manchester-city-apt-decision-verdict/

The thing that everybody has in common when it comes to legal battles between Manchester City and the Premier League is a desire for a line to be drawn under it all.

There are extremely polarised views over the 115 charges: City’s rivals may want them “wiped from the face of the Earth”, as Pep Guardiola put it recently, whereas the club are hoping for, possibly expecting, a huge victory. Everybody wants to know which of the two outcomes it will be.

It most likely will not bring an end to the arguments but, at some stage, there will have to be an actual winner. A losing party cannot spin, for example, exoneration or relegation.

The issue with Monday afternoon’s verdict from City’s legal challenge to the Premier League over associated party transaction (APT) rules is that there was room for both sides to claim victory. Even trained legal professionals could not reach a consensus on who had got the better of things, if anybody.

GO DEEPER

Manchester City vs the Premier League: The APT verdict (briefly) explained

On Monday, a Premier League statement said that City were “unsuccessful in the majority of its challenge. Significantly, the tribunal determined that the APT rules are necessary, pursued a legitimate objective and were put in place to ensure that the profitability and sustainability rules (PSR) are effective, thereby supporting and delivering sporting integrity and sustainability in the Premier League”.

City had released their own statement highlighting the five significant blows they had landed on the league, and actually provided a direct link to page 164 of the independent panel’s document, which summarises the independent panel’s findings to back up their stance — although it is almost impossible for anybody, especially a layman, to understand it without the context of the other 174 pages.

 

City are the first club to win the English league title in four successive seasons (Jess Hornby/Getty Images)

On Tuesday, there was another development: City are so sure that they didn’t just win, but win convincingly, that they wrote to the league and the 19 other clubs in the division to insist that the Premier League’s version of events is wrong.

In that letter, City say that a statement released by the league on Monday afternoon “is misleading and contains several inaccuracies” and “is a peculiar way of looking at the decision”.

GO DEEPER

Premier League clubs to meet next week to discuss APT case fallout

The club’s executives also conveyed their concern that the league intends to update its rules within 10 days — one of the fundamental reasons that City brought the case against the league’s APT rules in the first place was that they felt the legislation, adapted in 2021, was done in a hurry.

“The tribunal has declared the APT rules to be unlawful,” City’s second statement reads. “MCFC’s position is that this means that all of the APT rules are void, and have been since 2021. In recent correspondence, the Premier League agreed with MCFC that this is an issue that will need to be resolved by the tribunal. It is, therefore, remarkable that the Premier League is now seeking to involve the member clubs in a process to amend the APT rules when it does not even know the status of those rules.”

While the hearing into the 115 charges goes on, City’s rivals are hardly going to take that at face value.

Privately, the Premier League has said it completely rejects City’s assertion that their findings are misleading, although it is thought that there are no plans to vote on any of the findings at next Thursday’s league meeting.

That is one of the problems when it comes to finding answers here: a 175-page document is available to the public, but your average person (or journalist) will not have the appetite or stamina, let alone understanding, to digest it all properly.

There are far more people who have already made up their minds that no matter how convincingly either City or the Premier League put their case across, it is not going to move the needle too far. That is likely to be a factor even after the 115 charges are dealt with — not everybody will accept the final decision — but at least there will be evident winners and losers.

With the APT case, there is still ample room for claim and counter-claim.

City are right that they had some big successes, even if a lot of their arguments were dismissed. When the legal challenge came to light in June it was reported that they had submitted to the panel that ticket prices would need to go up because of the impact of APT rules, something that rubbed fans of the club up the wrong way in the first place, and gained no traction during the hearing.

There can be no doubt, though, that the panel stated that the Premier League’s laws are, in places, unlawful and unfairly applied, specifically when it came to City, and that is a major victory for the club. Two previous Premier League decisions on Abu Dhabi-based sponsors were also voided (a third was dropped before the hearing) because the league took too long to act.

With City insisting in its letter that all of the APT rules are now void, it plays into the idea that the club launched the legal challenge in a bid to scrap the rules entirely and have nothing replace them. The insinuation from some rivals being that City could and would inflate sponsorship agreements to help circumvent spending rules.

Although City had a long list of issues with the rules — how they were written, the scope of them, how they were applied, their implications, why they were brought in in the first place — and certainly seem very keen to point out that the rules are no longer valid, they do not expect or even hope for a Wild West scenario where anything goes. They still expect regulation, just in a different guise.

It is not clear what that guise would be, but given City were unhappy with how long the Premier League’s procedures took to analyse sponsorship deals, how costly the regulations were for clubs, how broad the league’s definitions became when looking at sponsorship deals (the rules changed from ‘related’ parties to ‘associated’ parties in 2021, and the word ‘evidently’ was also dropped when it came to determining what was fair market value), it is fair to say they wanted a model more in line with previous regulations — in place between 2013 and 2021 — and the current UEFA regulations that clubs would have to adhere to regardless of the ruling on Premier League rules.

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Manchester City vs the Premier League

• Explaining the 115* charges and what happens next
• Separating Guardiola’s wonderful team from the club’s reputation
• The season everything might change
• How could they be punished?

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One undisputedly big win for City relates to the finding over shareholder loans.

Part of the reason City successfully argued that the APT rules were unfairly applied was that they pointed out that the Premier League ignored instances where owners have loaned money to their clubs.

Deals between, say, Middle Eastern-owned clubs and Middle Eastern sponsors are heavily scrutinised, but clubs that simply receive money from their owners — which would be repaid, sometimes without interest — were not considered a problem.

That issue is now in the spotlight, and it is easy to imagine City laughing their backsides off at the thought that several of the clubs that have pushed for them to be punished in recent years could now be at risk of breaching spending rules themselves.

For those who mistrust City, it may be a bitter pill to swallow but the club undeniably have a point here: loans obviously have to be repaid, but clubs that receive them can benefit from financial relief on very agreeable and often flexible terms. That surely has to be factored in when thinking about PSR.

As the panel found, the “effect on competition is the same whether the money is received transparently from the owner or in a non-transparent way from a third party”.

Given so many clubs could be affected (nine have received loans from their owners) and a majority of 14 clubs need to pass a motion, it is hard to imagine what the regulations would look like, however. It is like turkeys voting on how they want Christmas to be delivered.

There is also a subtle but pretty significant piece of legalese in the verdict, too. The panel found that, by overlooking shareholder loans, the Premier League were found to have breached competition law ‘by object’. This means that the league actually set out to do it, rather than did it by accident. It is similar when it comes to abuse of power by the league.

The verdict also opened up the potential for City and other clubs to pursue damages from the Premier League relating to any deals that were unfairly recalculated, which might not result in eye-watering sums being handed over, but could prove another industrial-sized can of worms.

The Premier League has already spent significant sums on legal fees with other clubs in the recent past, and while much is understandably made of the amount that City can and will spend on legal counsel, the league has found itself outmanoeuvred by Everton and particularly Leicester City, despite those clubs using a significantly cheaper team of lawyers.

GO DEEPER

Leicester's PSR case hurt them this summer - now they have a fighting chance of staying up

Another thing that Monday’s verdict proved was that this was far from a frivolous appeal by City. When news of the legal challenge came to light in June, it was regarded by many as the end of football as we know it, a diabolical flexing of the muscles by the Premier League champions to show that they would stop at nothing to get the bigger win later down the line.

City will certainly throw their full weight behind their bid to beat the Premier League over the 115 charges, but the APT verdict shows that City had genuine reasons for bringing the case in its own right. Not all of their arguments were accepted, but some important ones were upheld and any tweaks to rules relating to shareholder loans could actually make the league fairer overall — as well as delight City’s executives.

The wait for the big winners and losers goes on.

[Vesper 28,832]

Why Man City’s legal case means they have incredibly strange relegation odds

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5808985/2024/10/09/manchester-city-legal-case-relegation-odds/

Manchester City have won the Premier League four times in a row and are unbeaten after seven matches this season.

But they are more likely to be relegated than Brighton & Hove Albion, Fulham and West Ham United, according to bookmakers.

City are 12/1 to be relegated this season, with Arsenal and Liverpool, their two most prominent domestic rivals, priced at 2,000/1 to drop into the Championship.

This has nothing to do with their consecutive draws against Arsenal and Newcastle United, nor is it down to Rodri being out for the season with an anterior cruciate ligament injury he sustained against Arsenal in September.

There is no correlation between what they are producing on the pitch and the possibility of them playing in the English Football League next year.

Betting companies have shifted their odds due to City’s legal dispute with the Premier League — concerning the 100-plus charges levelled against the club — and the prospect of a significant points deduction if they are found guilty.

 

There is an ongoing case between City and the Premier League (Michael Regan/Getty Images)

“From an industry point of view, the usual way of forming your relegation odds is to take the title odds and flip them the other way,” explains Alan Alger, a gambling consultant. “This is the first time it hasn’t happened.

“It is unprecedented that you would have a very short price for the title and then also what is a relatively short price for relegation. That can only be because the threat of relegation exists because of a relegation sanction or because of a big enough points deduction that puts them in the mix to be relegated.”

---

What is the latest regarding Manchester City’s 115 charges?

The hearing that will decide whether City broke any of the Premier League’s financial rules started on September 16 and is taking place in London.

It took more than 18 months to get to this stage, with the Premier League announcing the charges in February 2023. The hearing is expected to last around two and a half months.

The club is accused of multiple alleged breaches of a financial nature, including accusations they injected revenue by inflating sponsorship deals, while also hiding some costs by not declaring certain salaries and image-rights payments.

The charges range from failing to provide accurate financial information, breaching the Premier League’s profit and sustainability rules, failing to cooperate with the Premier League’s investigations, not providing accurate details for player and manager payments and not complying with UEFA’s FFP regulations.

When a verdict is delivered, City and the Premier League can mount an appeal if they are unhappy with the decision. City have maintained their innocence and strenuously deny all the charges.

GO DEEPER

Manchester City vs the Premier League: The APT verdict (briefly) explained

---

How has this impacted their relegation odds?

Ordinarily, Manchester City, like Liverpool and Arsenal, would be priced at 2,000/1 to be relegated. This is a general price that makes clear bookmakers think there is no chance of it happening.

But in May, the market shifted and serious thought needed to be given to the likelihood of City receiving a points deduction that could lead to relegation.

“We were the first out in the industry in putting a price on Manchester City,” explains Bet365’s Steve Freeth. “We discussed whether we should offer a price because, quite clearly, the liabilities running out on 2,000/1 would be astronomical.

“It was a case of some heads getting together, putting our fingers in the air and saying, ‘What’s going to happen to Manchester City and how do we see it?’, because it is so extreme.

“The price we fell on was 33/1 because you can’t know whether they will get nothing at all or be deducted 100 points. We went out in the market on May 19 with 33/1 and it has been a steady flow of business ever since.”

---

Manchester City vs the Premier League

• Separating Guardiola’s wonderful team from the club’s reputation
• The season everything might change
• How could they be punished?

---

Are people placing bets on City being relegated?

Yes, which is why their odds have shortened from 33/1 to 12/1.

“The kind of people backing it are your regular punters in the street, placing bets of £1, £5 and £10,” says Freeth. “They are the sorts of bets we are laying.

“We are laying quite a considerable amount of those bets, hence why the price has dropped from 33/1 to 12/1 over those months.”

Freeth noted that Bet365 has “built liabilities into seven figures”, meaning if City are relegated this season, their payout to customers totals more than £1million.

“We have to protect ourselves because it is such a volatile situation and that’s why we haven’t been offering 2,000/1,” Freeth adds. “Manchester City could win the next 10 games on the bounce but the 12/1 price wouldn’t move a great deal. It is not about results on the pitch, it is about results in the courtroom.”

 

City have been in good form in the Premier League but this will not impact odds (Shaun Botterill/Getty Images)

“It is purely a case of bookmakers protecting against the chance of a large points deduction that puts them in the relegation market,” Alger says. “And in such a high-percentage market in terms of profit for bookmakers, because you have 20 teams and three winners, you can overload the percentage and there is no upside in going 500/1 for Manchester City.

“But the fact you can go 12/1 and only take a small amount of margin out of your overall market, there is no upside to going any bigger than those prices because you won’t get any prizes for doing so. As the season plays out, you will continue to see them at a false price for relegation in terms of the chance of it happening.”

---

Have legal cases influenced sports betting markets before?

Everton and Nottingham Forest received points deductions last season, which has helped inform bookmakers on how to price in legal cases and potential punishments for relegation odds.

However, the cases involving Everton and Nottingham Forest pale compared to what has been levelled at City by the Premier League.

“Sometimes you can get a steer but there is such little information out there about the City case,” Freeth explains. “There was a steer last season that Everton would get a deduction of some sort, so that wasn’t as difficult to model. We didn’t think Everton would get more than 10 points, likewise Nottingham Forest.

“But just like everyone else, we haven’t got a clue (regarding Manchester City). That made us better prepared last season, but we have to stay vigilant and manage accordingly.”

---

Has a potential points deduction impacted City’s odds of winning a fifth consecutive title?

Pep Guardiola’s side are no longer favourites to win the Premier League, with Arsenal being viewed by bookmakers as the most likely club to end the season on top.

“The difference between being 4/7 favourites and then being 8/11 favourites at the start of the season, it looks minimal, but the percentage difference is about the same as the difference between 12/1 and 500/1 for relegation,” Alger says.

And, according to Freeth, people are still backing City to win the league, with the market most recently being impacted by Rodri’s season-ending injury, as well as Kevin De Bruyne missing the last three matches through injury.

[Stats 7,056]

Didn't know where to post this, however really sad. RIP George Baldock.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c99v5px2nd1o

[Vesper 28,832]

Uncapped Curtis Jones and Tino Livramento called up to England squad

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5830624/2024/10/09/curtis-jones-tino-livramento-england/

The uncapped Curtis Jones and Tino Livramento have been called up to the England senior squad ahead of October’s Nations League fixtures against Greece and Finland.

The additions bring Lee Carsley’s squad up to 24 players following Monday’s withdrawals of Kobbie Mainoo, Morgan Gibbs-White and Ezri Konsa due to injury.

Liverpool midfielder Jones and Newcastle United full-back Livramento both reported to St George’s Park on Tuesday evening, with Livramento moving across to the senior team from the under-21 squad.

Both players have received senior call-ups before. Jones, 23, was first selected by Gareth Southgate for the 33-man preliminary squad ahead of the 2024 European Championship, while Livramento, 21, earned his first call-up from Carsley last month. However, neither has yet made their senior debut.

The pair have worked with England’s interim head coach Carsley in his previous role with the under-21s, and Jones was part of England’s 2023 Under-21 Euro-winning squad.

Ahead of Thursday’s fixture against Greece, captain Harry Kane has continued working on an individualised programme after having tests on a knock he picked up in Bayern Munich’s 3-3 draw at Eintracht Frankfurt on Sunday. Manchester City’s Jack Grealish also sat out of training with a minor knock.

Carsley’s team will then travel to Helsinki to face Finland on Sunday. England started the group stage with victories over both the Republic of Ireland and Finland last month.

GO DEEPER

Palmer, Kane, Watkins, Saka, Bellingham, Foden... who starts in England's attack?

England squad in full

Goalkeepers: Dean Henderson (Crystal Palace), Jordan Pickford (Everton), Nick Pope (Newcastle United).

Defenders: Trent Alexander-Arnold (Liverpool), Levi Colwill (Chelsea), Marc Guehi (Crystal Palace), Rico Lewis (Manchester City), Tino Livramento (Newcastle United), John Stones (Manchester City), Kyle Walker (Manchester City).

Midfielders: Jude Bellingham (Real Madrid), Phil Foden (Manchester City), Conor Gallagher (Atletico Madrid), Angel Gomes (Lille), Curtis Jones (Liverpool), Cole Palmer (Chelsea), Declan Rice (Arsenal).

Forwards: Anthony Gordon (Newcastle United), Jack Grealish (Manchester City), Harry Kane (Bayern Munich), Noni Madueke (Chelsea), Bukayo Saka (Arsenal), Dominic Solanke (Tottenham Hotspur), Ollie Watkins (Aston Villa).

[Vesper 28,832]

Former Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp to become head of global soccer at Red Bull

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5830469/2024/10/09/jurgen-klopp-red-bull/

Jurgen Klopp is to become the new head of global soccer at Red Bull.

The 57-year-old will start his new position on January 1, 2025 and will oversee Red Bull’s international football network, marking his first appointment since stepping down as manager of Liverpool at the end of last season.

Klopp will not be involved in the day-to-day operations of Red Bull’s clubs but will provide strategic guidance. His focus will be on supporting individual sporting directors, alongside global scouting and the development of coaches.

“After almost 25 years on the sideline, I could not be more excited to get involved in a project like this,” Klopp said. “The role may have changed but my passion for football and the people who make the game what it is has not.

GO DEEPER

Klopp's move to Red Bull seems surprising - but it shouldn't be

“By joining Red Bull at a global level, I want to develop, improve and support the incredible football talent that we have at our disposal. There are many ways that we can do this from using the elite knowledge and experience that Red Bull possesses to learning from other sports and other industries.

“Together we can discover what is possible. I see my role primarily as a mentor for the coaches and management of the Red Bull clubs but ultimately I am one part of an organisation that is unique, innovative and forward looking. As I said, this could not excite me more.”

Red Bull’s chief executive of corporate projects and investments, Oliver Mintzlaff, added: “We are very proud of this outstanding and certainly the strongest signing in Red Bull’s soccer history.

“Jurgen Klopp is one of the greatest and most influential figures in world soccer, with extraordinary skills and charisma.

“In his role as head of soccer, he will be a game changer for our involvement in international soccer and its continued development. We are hoping for valuable and decisive impulses in key areas to make the clubs even better, both collectively and individually.”

 

Klopp left Liverpool at the end of last season (Clive Brunskill/Getty Images)

Red Bull have a number of clubs worldwide, which include RB Leipzig, Red Bull Salzburg and New York Red Bulls. Klopp is expected to play a key role at all of these sides.

Klopp has been one of the most sought-after figures in football since his eight-and-a-half-year tenure at Liverpool ended at the end of the 2023-24 campaign.

The Athletic reported in July that Klopp rebuffed an approach from the United States Soccer Federation (USSF) to take over as the men’s national team head coach following the dismissal of Gregg Berhalter. Mauricio Pochettino has since been appointed.

During his time at Anfield, Klopp guided Liverpool to the Champions League in 2018-19, the Premier League in 2019-20, and the FA Cup in 2021-22. He also added two League Cups, the FIFA Club World Cup, and the UEFA Super Cup to their trophy cabinet. His side also reached the Champions League final twice and were runners-up in the Europa League.

Before his success in Merseyside, Klopp led Borussia Dortmund to back-to-back Bundesliga titles and secured a domestic double by winning the DFB Pokal in 2012. He also steered Dortmund to the Champions League final in 2013.

Klopp is set to be officially unveiled in his new role at a press conference next year.

GO DEEPER

The Real Jurgen Klopp: An Athletic special series

Is this a surprise?

Analysis by Liverpool correspondent James Pearce

When an emotional Klopp waved goodbye to Anfield in May, he was adamant he would be taking a full year off to recharge his batteries.

Klopp brought the curtain down on his eight-and-a-half-year reign at Liverpool because he was “running out of energy” after more than two decades in management.

The German coach has spent the past five months recharging his batteries at his house on the Spanish island of Mallorca, playing his beloved padel, and attending major sporting events like the European Championship in his homeland and the Paralympics in Paris.

Given his passion for football and the number of job offers he’s received, it’s little surprise that the 57-year-old has decided to cut short his sabbatical.

It is  a major coup for Red Bull to secure his services and the attraction for Klopp is clear.

As their head of global soccer, he will oversee their international network of clubs, giving support and advice to sporting directors and helping to develop coaches. There will also be an input in recruitment without the pressure and strain of day-to-day management.

Klopp will be reunited with his Liverpool No 2 Pep Lijnders, who is head coach at Red Bull Salzburg. Vitor Matos and Andreas Kornmayer, who were part of Klopp’s staff at Anfield, also work alongside Lijnders at the Austrian club.

How will this appointment be perceived in Germany?

Analysis by Sebastian Stafford-Bloor

This will be incredibly divisive in Germany, where no footballing personality comes close to challenging Klopp’s popularity. Nine years after leaving Borussia Dortmund, he still enjoys a celebrity title that transcends the sport, with an appeal described by advertising deals across German television — for beer, for fitness equipment, even for financial planning. Klopp is inescapable during advert breaks.

Conversely, nobody is less popular in German football than RB Leipzig and, more broadly, the Red Bull network. Leipzig were founded in 2009 and were artificially constructed in a way that allowed them to conform to the Bundesliga 50+1 rule, which mandates that ultimate control of a club remains in the hands of its members.

As a result, many supporters find Red Bull’s influence in Germany not just to be an affront to a culture which prizes authenticity and fan-influence above all else, but also an unwelcome vision of a future that they do not want — one where commercial interest drives the game, not fan democracy. The strength of feeling around this issue is intense; on any given weekend, there will be banners in stadiums protesting Red Bull’s presence — regardless of whether Leipzig are playing or not.

 

Klopp was successful during his time at Dortmund (Martin Rose/Bongarts/Getty Images)

So, the culture clash is obvious. Beyond the success of his football teams at Mainz, Dortmund and latterly at Liverpool, Klopp has always enjoyed an unvarnished like-ability and, more importantly, has often shown himself to be aware of the role of supporters and a protector of their agency. At Dortmund, before he brought success and helped to create a new image for the club, one of his first steps was to engage with supporter groups. At Liverpool, he always seemed keenly aware of local issues well beyond the scope of his job.

To British fans who likely see Red Bull’s influence in Germany as trifling in comparison to the challenges of state ownership and sportswashing, this must seem like melodrama. But locally, it will be different. Many fans will feel let down. Many will see this as Klopp swapping sides and, in the abstract sense, taking a role that will put him in direct opposition to fan interest. That will obviously be the case in Dortmund, where this will be felt acutely, but well beyond the Ruhr Valley, too.

Klopp’s popularity was presumably a factor in his hiring, with Red Bull perhaps seeing the value of infusing their brand with his personality. Given his lack of experience in his new role — Klopp has never worked beyond a coaching level — that seems especially likely. That will also not make this move any more popular.

Edited October 9 by Vesper

[Vesper 28,832]

Liverpool goalkeeper Alisson out until after November international break with hamstring injury

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5824726/2024/10/09/alisson-hamstring-injury-liverpool/

Liverpool goalkeeper Alisson has been ruled out until after the November international break.

The Brazil international, 32, suffered a hamstring injury in last Saturday’s 1-0 win over Crystal Palace in the Premier League and scan results have since confirmed the worst fears of head coach Arne Slot.

Alisson will miss at least the next seven matches in all competitions, with Caoimhin Kelleher set to deputise.

Kelleher sat out the trip to Selhurst Park due to illness, with third-choice goalkeeper Vitezslav Jaros coming off the bench to make his Premier League debut after Alisson was forced off with 11 minutes remaining. However, the Republic of Ireland international has now recovered and is away on international duty.

Alisson is set to miss a crucial stretch of fixtures for Slot’s side, including a home clash against Chelsea, away games at RB Leipzig in the Champions League and Arsenal in the Premier League, a Carabao Cup tie at Brighton, followed by matches at home against Bayer Leverkusen and Aston Villa.

GO DEEPER

Jaros steps up as Alisson injury means another twist in Liverpool's goalkeeper situation

Whether the game against Southampton at Anfield on November 24 after the next international break is a realistic target for his comeback will depend on how his recovery goes. That clash is followed two huge home matches against Real Madrid in the Champions League and Manchester City in the English top-flight.

It’s a painful setback for Alisson, who missed 10 league matches last season due to muscle problems.

However, it represents another extended opportunity for Kelleher to showcase his talent. He had sought a move this summer but Liverpool turned down interest from Nottingham Forest as they wanted him to stay put as high-quality back-up.

Liverpool agreed a £29million ($37.9m) deal for Valencia’s Giorgi Mamardashvili but the Georgian shot-stopper won’t arrive at Anfield until next summer.

[OneMoSalah 8,778]

On 07/10/2024 at 13:16, Vesper said:

So which CF do YOU want?

Here is every other remotely (and a couple are basically impossible) available CF valid (IMHO) option who is valued at or over the ones (Nico, Samu, Duran) you already mentioned.

in order of valuation:

  
Lautaro Martínez (very very unliekly Inter would sell him)
Victor Osimhen 
Alexander Isak 
Viktor Gyökeres
Dušan Vlahović 
Ollie Watkins 
Loïs Openda 
Benjamin Sesko
João Pedro  
Jonathan David   
Evan Ferguson
Mikel Oyarzabal  
Victor Boniface
Santiago Gimenez 
Brian Brobbey 
Elye Wahi  

Omar Marmoush is another option perhaps.

Oshimen or Jonathan David to a much much lesser extent were the most logical ones. More proven and experienced. Even Ollie Watkins would’ve been a half decent move.

Rushing around last minute trying to convince Oshimen to take a shite salary when we could had made such an offer weeks beforehand and then tried to compromise, was just sheer incompetence from the usual folk involved with footballing decisions.

Wait and see in January or next summer we will 90% likely sign him. Which again will make folk wonder, why didn’t we do it beforehand?

[Vesper 28,832]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Oshimen or Jonathan David to a much much lesser extent were the most logical ones. More proven and experienced. Even Ollie Watkins would’ve been a half decent move.

Rushing around last minute trying to convince Oshimen to take a shite salary when we could had made such an offer weeks beforehand and then tried to compromise, was just sheer incompetence from the usual folk involved with footballing decisions.

Wait and see in January or next summer we will 90% likely sign him. Which again will make folk wonder, why didn’t we do it beforehand?

sounds like we are now really looking at Liam Delap and Marmoush

[Vesper 28,832]

UEFA Nations League.

Еnglаnd ЕNG vs Grеесе GRС

10 October 2024 at 19:45.

 

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[Vesper 28,832]

https://next.soccerstreams100.io/event/uefa-nations/greece-vs-england-live-soccer-stats/698935

[ZAPHOD2319 4,479]

Interesting to see where Palmer will play

[Vesper 28,832]

https://www.vipleague.pm/uefa-nations-league/england-vs-greece-1-live-streaming

https://www.vipleague.pm/uefa-nations-league/england-vs-greece-2-live-streaming