Branislav Ivanovic

[robsblubot 3,330]

Don't get me wrong, I go fucking mental whenever Ivanovic scores and does his funny pointing to the head celeeration. But, all of this is not his job. He shouldn't be the one saving our ass by scoring goals, if anything thats a bonus. His priority is defending, and while I'm hundred percent he has the potential to be a rock at defence but its lack of concentration that constantly lets him and the team down a lot.

I keep hearing of this lack of concentration which usually comes from England supporters and ironically I think the English team is awful in defense. And it has little to do with concentration but IMO characteristics - just listen to some pundits and you will understand it: hard to defend when your cbs or FBs sit in front of the gk and can/want only hit row Z, but I digress.

You and I don't know what Ivanovic is instructed to do before each match, so you are making a lot of assumptions and I suspect they are wrong based on the evidence We have. if jose were indeed telling Him to keep position and Iva would bomb forward Jose would have dropped him in a heartbeat. Is it not safe to assume that Iva has been doing what Jose instructs him to do?

[stroey 2,525]

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2015/02/ivanovic--ready-for-anything-and-everything-.html

Ready for anything and everything - Bane

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I keep hearing of this lack of concentration which usually comes from England supporters and ironically I think the English team is awful in defense. And it has little to do with concentration but IMO characteristics - just listen to some pundits and you will understand it: hard to defend when your cbs or FBs sit in front of the gk and can/want only hit row Z, but I digress.

You and I don't know what Ivanovic is instructed to do before each match, so you are making a lot of assumptions and I suspect they are wrong based on the evidence We have. if jose were indeed telling Him to keep position and Iva would bomb forward Jose would have dropped him in a heartbeat. Is it not safe to assume that Iva has been doing what Jose instructs him to do?

Think you're misunderstanding the criticism Ivanovic gets. Noone is criticizing him for bombing forward and leaving space. It's clear that he's instructed to do that by Mourinho.

People criticize him because he has a tendency to switch off in defensive situations. (Lampard's goal, Okore's goal, Chadli's goal) Kind of a no-no for defenders wouldn't you agree ?

All these situations happened when Ivanovic was defending deep.

I honestly don't understand why people get so defensive when someone criticizes Ivanovic. It's valid criticism. The mistakes he made aren't little mistakes.

Failing to mark a player in his own 18 yard box. Deciding to double mark a player while his man was completely free. These are really big mistakes. Mistakes you don't expect such an experienced defender to make.

Ivanovic has been excellent in attack but defensively he really hasn't been good this season.

[robsblubot 3,330]

I do disagree.

The first part of my post addressed the fabled switching off that all non-English and usually superior defenders suffer from.

I am a firm believer that it is impossible to defend a well placed ball (cross, through etc). The defenders in the box are reacting and as good as they may be at reading the plays, the atrackers can always improvise.

So it's not that I disagree that some defenders switch off they certainly do (Iva included), but that it does not matter as much when defending as a tem is concerned.

[DYC. 7,542]

I do disagree.

The first part of my post addressed the fabled switching off that all non-English and usually superior defenders suffer from.

I am a firm believer that it is impossible to defend a well placed ball (cross, through etc). The defenders in the box are reacting and as good as they may be at reading the plays, the atrackers can always improvise.

So it's not that I disagree that some defenders switch off they certainly do (Iva included), but that it does not matter as much when defending as a tem is concerned.

I agree with this. Defenders in general receive too much stick imo. Turn it around more and give the attacking team more credit.

Of course the level of defending shown by Arsenal today does not apply to this. That was simply abysmal. Like you said, you defend as a team (the space they gave away today...).

[bababoom 4,478]

On this forum he's the most underrated player we have, he'll probably be appreciated more when he leaves/retires. He's having a wonderful season, brilliant player.

[robsblubot 3,330]

I agree with this. Defenders in general receive too much stick imo. Turn it around more and give the attacking team more credit.

Of course the level of defending shown by Arsenal today does not apply to this. That was simply abysmal. Like you said, you defend as a team (the space they gave away today...).

Heh just watched the game - as bad as their defense was (they are not very good) it was still a collective poor performance. Even when mertesacker makes the judgmental mistake (and I do understand why he made it - his teammates were not winning tackles) the guys around him did not cover for him.

I just enjoy seeing arsenal lose so much...something wrong with me.

Btw Monaco has a cm worth keeping an eye on - a guy capable o rotating Matic and start along as well.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I do disagree.

The first part of my post addressed the fabled switching off that all non-English and usually superior defenders suffer from.

I am a firm believer that it is impossible to defend a well placed ball (cross, through etc). The defenders in the box are reacting and as good as they may be at reading the plays, the atrackers can always improvise.

So it's not that I disagree that some defenders switch off they certainly do (Iva included), but that it does not matter as much when defending as a tem is concerned.

Well i do agree with you and DYC that there are goals that get scored where a defender can do everything right but the pass/cross and movement is so inch perfect that the defender simply can't intervene

however the examples i gave of Ivanovic his mistakes don't fall under that category. He didn't do everything right and there's plenty he could have done to stop or at the very least made it more difficult for the player to score.

Lampard's goal : He 's marking Lampard, ball gets switched to Milner, Ivanovic turns his back on Lampard and seems to completely forget about Lampard who makes a smart run into the back of Ivanovic, Milner passes to Lampard, goal.

Okore's goal : He completely forgets about Okore and turns his back on him. When the cross comes in he has absolutely no idea where Okore is. Goal

Chadli's goal : Again he seems to be completely oblivious of Chadli's run. He decides to double mark Kane leaving Chadli completely free and Chadli takes full advantage of that freedom. Goal

I don't really get what defending as a team has to do with Ivanovic failing to mark players in his own 18 yard box.

[nj17 0]

Well i do agree with you and DYC that there are goals that get scored where a defender can do everything right but the pass/cross and movement is so inch perfect that the defender simply can't intervene

however the examples i gave of Ivanovic his mistakes don't fall under that category. He didn't do everything right and there's plenty he could have done to stop or at the very least made it more difficult for the player to score.

Lampard's goal : He 's marking Lampard, ball gets switched to Milner, Ivanovic turns his back on Lampard and seems to completely forget about Lampard who makes a smart run into the back of Ivanovic, Milner passes to Lampard, goal.

Okore's goal : He completely forgets about Okore and turns his back on him. When the cross comes in he has absolutely no idea where Okore is. Goal

Chadli's goal : Again he seems to be completely oblivious of Chadli's run. He decides to double mark Kane leaving Chadli completely free and Chadli takes full advantage of that freedom. Goal

I don't really get what defending as a team has to do with Ivanovic failing to mark players in his own 18 yard box.

Yeah.sometimes he forget about marking players but his statistics are enough good to make fans forget about his wrong marking.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Heh just watched the game - as bad as their defense was (they are not very good) it was still a collective poor performance. Even when mertesacker makes the judgmental mistake (and I do understand why he made it - his teammates were not winning tackles) the guys around him did not cover for him.

I just enjoy seeing arsenal lose so much...something wrong with me.

Btw Monaco has a cm worth keeping an eye on - a guy capable o rotating Matic and start along as well.

Kondogbia correct? Brilliant talent. Would be a great squad player here, also great back up to Matic.

[Jase 43,479]

Some fellas here really need to differentiate the difference between giving constructive criticism and (supposedly) not appreciating a player.

Just because we criticize Ivanovic (constructively), it doesn't mean we don't appreciate him. It's not like we complain about him without any legitimate reasons.

[robsblubot 3,330]

Well i do agree with you and DYC that there are goals that get scored where a defender can do everything right but the pass/cross and movement is so inch perfect that the defender simply can't intervene

however the examples i gave of Ivanovic his mistakes don't fall under that category. He didn't do everything right and there's plenty he could have done to stop or at the very least made it more difficult for the player to score.

Lampard's goal : He 's marking Lampard, ball gets switched to Milner, Ivanovic turns his back on Lampard and seems to completely forget about Lampard who makes a smart run into the back of Ivanovic, Milner passes to Lampard, goal.

Okore's goal : He completely forgets about Okore and turns his back on him. When the cross comes in he has absolutely no idea where Okore is. Goal

Chadli's goal : Again he seems to be completely oblivious of Chadli's run. He decides to double mark Kane leaving Chadli completely free and Chadli takes full advantage of that freedom. Goal

I don't really get what defending as a team has to do with Ivanovic failing to mark players in his own 18 yard box.

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

[Jase 43,479]

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

Funny thing is most of Ivanovic's mistakes happen when he's in the position to defend as opposed to being caught out of position by the opposition.

[Amblève. 4,995]

Some fellas here really need to differentiate the difference between giving constructive criticism and (supposedly) not appreciating a player.

Just because we criticize Ivanovic (constructively), it doesn't mean we don't appreciate him. It's not like we complain about him without any legitimate reasons.

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

[Jase 43,479]

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

People want Luis to start (and Azpi move to RB) because Ivanovic is failing to do his primary task as a defender well. It's not that people don't appreciate him, it's just he's made so many basic defensive errors that it's almost justified to drop him. He might have scored some important goals for us this season, I don't deny that, but that doesn't mean he should be getting away scot-free from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with fans wanting him to (at least) buck up defensively.

[WNDS 502]

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

I really don't agree with your assertion that Luis 'hasn't shown anything' to justify such a switch; he's been our best/most consistent FB (in terms of his defending) for the last two months. Weirdly though, Azpi has probably been the least impressive of the FBs over that same time-period, and so is probably more under threat of losing his place than Ivanovic currently is.

As for Ivanovic, while his defending still leaves something to be desired, he has been making decisive (and positive) contributions to a lot of our more recent matches, and so should remain in the team for now. I DO maintain, however, that if he returns to performing in the way that he often did over November/December/some of January (lapses leading to opposition goals that were not offset by his attacking contributions), he SHOULD be a candidate for being dropped to the bench.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

Don't get why you're bringing up proactive defending. Ivanovic isn't a proactive defender and the mistakes he makes don't come from proactive defending.

Yes every player makes mistakes even the best but there's a limit. Ivanovic has made more mistakes then you expect an experienced defender to make.

The majority of Ivanovic his mistakes happen when we're defending deep and you just said it yourself "Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make"

So even with the space reduced and the judgment calls easier to make he's still making too many mistakes.

"Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again." Well that's kinda the problem... That's why people are criticizing him and why some people want Luis to start because he'll keep making them.

Again, "the way we setup on the right" and "Ivanovic bombing forward" has nothing to do with his mistakes. The majority of his mistakes happen when he's defending deep.

So you can't use his bombing forward or "the way we use him" as an excuse for his mistakes.

[robsblubot 3,330]

Don't get why you're bringing up proactive defending. Ivanovic isn't a proactive defender and the mistakes he makes don't come from proactive defending.

Yes every player makes mistakes even the best but there's a limit. Ivanovic has made more mistakes then you expect an experienced defender to make.

The majority of Ivanovic his mistakes happen when we're defending deep and you just said it yourself "Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make"

So even with the space reduced and the judgment calls easier to make he's still making too many mistakes.

"Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again." Well that's kinda the problem... That's why people are criticizing him and why some people want Luis to start because he'll keep making them.

Again, "the way we setup on the right" and "Ivanovic bombing forward" has nothing to do with his mistakes. The majority of his mistakes happen when he's defending deep.

So you can't use his bombing forward or "the way we use him" as an excuse for his mistakes.

I think I alreayd made my point so we are running in circles as we tend do do around here.

For me, and me alone, Ivanovic is unfairly criticized. His FOCUS (not merely positioning) is attacking because that's his posture on the pitch and the manager seems to be content with that. Now, if you think players can do both (defend and attack) seamlessly, then I will just have to disagree.

And also disagree on defending deep as well. As we have already established (did you not write that?) that he bombs forward, he is often coming back to defense. Unless he can magically appear deep in defense after sprinting forward.