The Tuchel Thread

[Blues Forever 1,232]

3 minutes ago, manpe said:

All depends on the players he will have at his disposal I suppose. If Chelsea team consisted only of players that PSG, City or Liverpool have, no way would he be playing 5 atb. It was never his go-to formation at Dortmund or PSG, only at Chelsea did he make it his main one for reasons that we saw under Lampard. We need at least 2 CBs who can play in 4 atb formation without being babysitted and a proper DMF in front of them (Jorginho is not it)... Somewhy I doubt we can pull them all off this summer, we will probably need one more summer transfer window.

 

The funny thing is Jorginho was great in 4-3-3 either with Italy or Napoli. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Blues Forever

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

26 minutes ago, Blues Forever said:

The funny thing is Jorginho was great in 4-3-3 either with Italy or Napoli. 

But international football is vastly slower than the Premier league. It's more tactical. Same with Serie A. It has 40 year old's winning the golden boot so that gives another indication of how slow the league is in comparison to the Prem. 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

11 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

But international football is vastly slower than the Premier league. It's more tactical. Same with Serie A. It has 40 year old's winning the golden boot so that gives another indication of how slow the league is in comparison to the Prem. 

The thing is Jorginho can function with the right setup and personnel beside him. With Italy he have Barella, Verratti, Locatelli to offer extra protection and allowing to maximize his strength. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Blues Forever

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Just now, Blues Forever said:

The thing is Jorginho can function with the right setup and personnel. With Italy he have Barella, Verratti, Locatelli to offer extra protection and allowing to maximize his strength. 

I'm sure he can but at what cost? Italy won the Euros but this is also the same Italy that failed to qualify for the world cup. 2nd straight time. 7 defensive minded players on the pitch with only one coherent attacker (Chiesa)

I think we have done the best  we possibly can with Jorginho in the XI. 

 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

Just now, MoroccanBlue said:

I'm sure he can but at what cost? Italy won the Euros but this is also the same Italy that failed to qualify for the world cup. 2nd straight time. 7 defensive minded players on the pitch with only one coherent attacker (Chiesa)

I think we have done the best  we possibly can with Jorginho in the XI. 

 

Italy failed was more to with their shite attacker. Apart from Chiesa none of them are world class.

[Clockwork 1,794]

For me this is my biggest issue with Tuchel

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Can anyone confirm if we were closer to City/Liverpool in chance creation under Lampard? Still think 5 defenders and two conservative central midfielders primarily the reason. 

[YorkshireBlue 3,279]

40 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Can anyone confirm if we were closer to City/Liverpool in chance creation under Lampard? Still think 5 defenders and two conservative central midfielders primarily the reason. 

I think the reason  is tuchel team is bascally assorted from every other managers play style, our biggest problem is we never kept a manager long enough to build a team. 1 or 2 players here n there they get sacked next manager adds 2 or 3 with a different style so on and so forth. Hopefully we will be able to  watch a manager build a team around how he wants to play and not just work with 4 others managers players.

[Jype 6,398]

14 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Can anyone confirm if we were closer to City/Liverpool in chance creation under Lampard? Still think 5 defenders and two conservative central midfielders primarily the reason. 

Not bothered to check any underlying metrics other than xG but here goes.

 

2019/20 season (full Lampard):

- Liverpool xG was 75,2 and goals scored 85.

- Man City xG was 102,2 and goals scored 102.

- Chelsea xG 76,2 and goals scored 69.

 

2020/21 season (half Lampard / half Tuchel):

- Man City xG 77,7 and goals scored 83.

- Liverpool xG 72,2 and goals scored 68.

- Chelsea overall xG 68,7 and goals scored 58.

- Under Lampard first half of the season xG 32,5 an goals scored 33.

- Under Tuchel second half of the season xG 36,2 and goals scored 25.

 

2021/22 season (full Tuchel):

- Man City xG 93,4 and goals scored 99.

- Liverpool xG 93,0 and goals scored 94.

- Chelsea xG 69,3 and goals scored 76.

 

 

Man City have always been a lot higher but as far as Liverpool goes, this past season high was an exception in their xG created and not the normal. Under Klopp their xG/season has averaged around 70-77, which is really not all that much more than Chelsea under Tuchel this season or the second half of last season. 

As for Chelsea the numbers for 1.5 seasons of Lampard (108.7 xG) and 1.5 seasons of Tuchel (105.5 xG) are pretty close but at the same time there's been a big improvement defensively.

One of course has to also consider that Klopp and Pep have been at their clubs since 2015 and 2016 so they've had a lot more time to build their respective teams and train attacking play patterns etc. than Tuchel has. Those two are considered two of the best teams in recent football history so it would've been a miracle if Tuchel came in and was immediately as good or better than them.

 

[Clockwork 1,794]

Stats aside, you can see with your own eyes there is so much more pattern to the way Pool and City attack.

[Superblue 6,372]

2 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

Stats aside, you can see with your own eyes there is so much more pattern to the way Pool and City attack.

It may well be a different philosophy to squad building. Pep and klopp both came in and immediately focused on their teams attacking play. It left both very susceptible defensively for a while (took pep a full season and a number of keeper and defensive additions and klopp struggled for first couple of years before bringing van dijk then Alisson in).

Tuchel's first steps were creating a solid defensive base and I'd say that was fully vindicated with the champions league win which we looked nowhere near capable of under Lampard.

Maybe Tuchel needs the same opportunities afforded to pep and klopp where he's given time and resources to adjust and improve the attacking elements to our game. City and Liverpool looked pretty ordinary with a number of the players klopp and pep inherited.

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

The only thing that's concerning for me is when Tuchel publicly states he doesn't train the players in attacking phases. You can see it ever so blatantly when we look clueless up top and always force to recycle. 

With Liverpool and City, you can clearly see patterns of play and specific instructions the wide and middle players are doing. 

[ZAPHOD2319 4,819]

 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

Apparently Tuchel is in Italy with his ex-wife. 

[Hashishi 148]

On 01/06/2022 at 16:13, MoroccanBlue said:

The only thing that's concerning for me is when Tuchel publicly states he doesn't train the players in attacking phases. You can see it ever so blatantly when we look clueless up top and always force to recycle. 

With Liverpool and City, you can clearly see patterns of play and specific instructions the wide and middle players are doing. 

This is so obvious I cannot believe he publicly stated it. If he won't do it, the club should bring in a coach to do it. To me it just looks like the team hasn't trained at all.

[manpe 10,861]

On 01/06/2022 at 18:13, MoroccanBlue said:

The only thing that's concerning for me is when Tuchel publicly states he doesn't train the players in attacking phases. You can see it ever so blatantly when we look clueless up top and always force to recycle. 

With Liverpool and City, you can clearly see patterns of play and specific instructions the wide and middle players are doing. 

What? Can you link to where he said it? If true then this is the same as Mourinho - all about defending, zero fucks given about the attack. IF this is true then his career here won't be very long. You need ultra-talented and smart attackers for that to work and we don't have those.

Edited June 11, 2022 by manpe

[Blue Armour 4,448]

11 hours ago, manpe said:

What? Can you link to where he said it? If true then this is the same as Mourinho - all about defending, zero fucks given about the attack. IF this is true then his career here won't be very long. You need ultra-talented and smart attackers for that to work and we don't have those.

Not really the link you're looking for but here's something from a month ago:

 

[Blues Forever 1,232]

 

[Blues11 213]

To me TT is part of the problem ATM. He will always deserve credit for picking up after Frank and winning us a CL title. I've said it before, he may have been the only manager who could have achieved that feat with how bleak things were at the time. 

He noted that the same issues are happening because we have the same players, I do believe some of that is true but aren't a lot of these the same guys you won the CL with? You can't take all the credit when it goes well and throw all your players under the bus when the morale is low. He's deflecting blame, not taking any kind of accountability for our struggles last season into this preseason. 

Why do some of his former players not want to come here to play with him? Guys like Dembele and Kimpembe were available but both adamantly said no. Now of course there are other contributing factors but why do so many current players also want to leave? Rudi, AC, Azpi, Alonso, etc. Call them bums if you want but Rudi and AC played key parts defensively. To me it's alarming and TT wants to blame everyone but himself. The manager has a big part on why a player wants to sign or resign here and he doesn't seem too popular at the moment. 

Name one player you can really say has been elevated offensively under Tuchel? Mount was already on his way to being a star but yeah go ahead and give TT credit for his rise. We started off last season looking like title contenders and eventually we struggled against everyone. Sure you had injuries but some of those losses/draws were against bottom table teams with half the talent. All our attacking players seem to lack confidence with Tuchel, like they're walking on eggshells each time they're out there. With how shitty the creativity in our midfield is, these attackers have to come back for the ball and barely get to just focus on making runs and positioning. 

TT decides to finally change the formation and try something new but he uses Chalobah and Emerson in a back four and wonders why it didn't go well? We are way too predictable until we improve the midfield and find a proper striker but also because of TT. I don't believe he has the mind to elevate an attack like we want to believe he can....I mean I hope I'm wrong but there's a lot of alarming evidence that there isn't even belief in the locker room he can improve the team in that department. 

I believe he deserves patience and given a whole season to see how we perform, but he also deserves to be criticized when things aren't going well. I see everyone get blamed except TT, it's the sanctions, it's the injuries, it's the players, it's the ownership.... In my opinion he has a lot to prove. 

 

 

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Where is @Jase?